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kane · 02-06-2008, 02:23 PM

I'll just jump in here with a couple quick points:

1. We will not really know how Iraq turns out for at least another 10 years. I am of the opinion that eventually there will be some kind of democracy there that will end up being overthrown by a radical and we will be back at square one again. It is also possible there will be a democracy there that supports the radicals and we will not like that either. To me all the war in Iraq has done (other than waste a ton of money and lives) is create terrorist. Sure, we have killed many terrorist, but for every one we will kill our policies create two new ones. That part of the world is under-educated, has such a separation of wealth that the majority of the people live in poverty and has strong government controls on the media. Factor that in with a little radical religion and you have a place that will never know peace. The middle east has known nothing but blood and violence since the beginning of recorded time, there is no reason or evidence to make us believe that will ever change.

2. I think welfare, for the most part, sucks. I think when you allow people to get into the mindset that the government will pay them to sit at home it breeds a culture of failure. A friend of mine worked at a grocery store for many years and there were several women that would come in on welfare and food stamps and every few years they had a new kid so they could stay on the system. One of them had an 18 year old daughter who got knocked up and got on welfare too. The sad thing is they were proud of it. It creates a cycle of poverty and a mindset that allows people to feel good about staying within it.

That said, you have to expect some of that. I just read that around 70% of the strength of our economy is based on consumer spending. Our country survives because people spend money on useless crap they don't need. Remember when Bush took office then there was the Enron and Worldcom collapses, the dot com bubble had burst and then 9/11 happened and the economy was going into the shitter? What did he say to the people? He told us to spend money. Go shopping, take a trip. And that is the key to our economy. When things start looking bad we stop spending and that causes problems. When we spend our money on shit we don't need, our economy thrives. Why do you think they want to give everyone that tax rebate? Because they know most people will just go out and spend it and it could help jump start the econony.

All of this is nice, but let us not forget that the government (and Bush is one of the worst offenders) gives tons of money to companies. It is corporate welfare that pads their profits and often is not used to create new jobs or advance the company. A good example. There was a show on PBS a little while back about a company from Detroit that manufactured instrument panels for different vehicles ( I think they were called Johnson Controls but I may be wrong about that). They did a lot of work for companies like Boeing and had some defense contracts. They had 8000 employees and that year they made 156 million in profit, but they wanted more. The decided to move all of their manufacturing plants to Honduras. Here they could hire people to work for $2 a day instead of $15-$20 per hour and they didn't have to worry about paying overtime or benefits. They laid off around 7,500 of their workers and made the move. The kicker? The Bush administration gave them 20 million dollars in grants to help them with the move. Yeah, they got a smooth 20 million in free money to move 7500 jobs out of the country.

So I ask you this. Which is worse: The government giving 20 million to lazy people who won't work, but will at least spend the money here and put it back into the economy, or giving it to a company to help it move it's manufacturing jobs offshore?

sorry for the long post.

02-06-2008, 02:23 PM
kane Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: portland, OR Posts: 20,684	I'll just jump in here with a couple quick points: 1. We will not really know how Iraq turns out for at least another 10 years. I am of the opinion that eventually there will be some kind of democracy there that will end up being overthrown by a radical and we will be back at square one again. It is also possible there will be a democracy there that supports the radicals and we will not like that either. To me all the war in Iraq has done (other than waste a ton of money and lives) is create terrorist. Sure, we have killed many terrorist, but for every one we will kill our policies create two new ones. That part of the world is under-educated, has such a separation of wealth that the majority of the people live in poverty and has strong government controls on the media. Factor that in with a little radical religion and you have a place that will never know peace. The middle east has known nothing but blood and violence since the beginning of recorded time, there is no reason or evidence to make us believe that will ever change. 2. I think welfare, for the most part, sucks. I think when you allow people to get into the mindset that the government will pay them to sit at home it breeds a culture of failure. A friend of mine worked at a grocery store for many years and there were several women that would come in on welfare and food stamps and every few years they had a new kid so they could stay on the system. One of them had an 18 year old daughter who got knocked up and got on welfare too. The sad thing is they were proud of it. It creates a cycle of poverty and a mindset that allows people to feel good about staying within it. That said, you have to expect some of that. I just read that around 70% of the strength of our economy is based on consumer spending. Our country survives because people spend money on useless crap they don't need. Remember when Bush took office then there was the Enron and Worldcom collapses, the dot com bubble had burst and then 9/11 happened and the economy was going into the shitter? What did he say to the people? He told us to spend money. Go shopping, take a trip. And that is the key to our economy. When things start looking bad we stop spending and that causes problems. When we spend our money on shit we don't need, our economy thrives. Why do you think they want to give everyone that tax rebate? Because they know most people will just go out and spend it and it could help jump start the econony. All of this is nice, but let us not forget that the government (and Bush is one of the worst offenders) gives tons of money to companies. It is corporate welfare that pads their profits and often is not used to create new jobs or advance the company. A good example. There was a show on PBS a little while back about a company from Detroit that manufactured instrument panels for different vehicles ( I think they were called Johnson Controls but I may be wrong about that). They did a lot of work for companies like Boeing and had some defense contracts. They had 8000 employees and that year they made 156 million in profit, but they wanted more. The decided to move all of their manufacturing plants to Honduras. Here they could hire people to work for $2 a day instead of $15-$20 per hour and they didn't have to worry about paying overtime or benefits. They laid off around 7,500 of their workers and made the move. The kicker? The Bush administration gave them 20 million dollars in grants to help them with the move. Yeah, they got a smooth 20 million in free money to move 7500 jobs out of the country. So I ask you this. Which is worse: The government giving 20 million to lazy people who won't work, but will at least spend the money here and put it back into the economy, or giving it to a company to help it move it's manufacturing jobs offshore? sorry for the long post.