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kane · 02-11-2009, 06:49 PM

I think the majority of the bailout money is going to banks and things like that which are not unionized. There are some things like the auto industry which are unionized getting some aid, but those are loans, not the flat out gifts that the bankers are getting. A lot of it is also going to garbage that has nothing to do with creating jobs and it is going directly into infrastructure work much of which will not be unionized work.

I don't blame workers for trying to get everything they can from an employer. If I go to a company and they want to hire me and I demand a certain wage and benefits package and get it, great. The company should know what they can and cannot afford to pay me. If they give it to me what fault of it is mine?

As for the unions causing the global downturn of the auto industry. There is a lot more to it than that. All of the car companies are hurting, even those that don't use unions. The main thing that car companies did wrong (IMO) is they bet the farm on the SUV. The somehow convinced everyone that they needed to own a 30K+ SUV that most could barely afford to begin with then when gas shot up to nearly $5 a gallon they couldn't afford to drive it. So now people are not buying those big cars, but the car companies are in a position where they rely on selling them to make their profits.

I'm not saying unions are without blame. But there is a myth that many believe that most auto workers are making 80K+ a year and have world class benefits. My brother is a teamster (not auto, construction) and he has shitty medical and dental coverage. After 12 years with the company he still gets just 2 weeks vacation a year and only gets 16 hours a sick time a year. The number that most people use for the union wage also includes the pension/benefits of retired and past employees. So they add in all the money the car company is paying out to current employees in wages and benefits and they add in all the pension and benefits for past and retired employees and they take that big number and divide it by the number of employees they have working today. That number represents how much it costs them for each employee, not necessarily how much each employee is getting.

Here is an example:
Say you had 100 employees and each earned 20K a year in wages and benefits for each cost another 10K a year. You can then say each employee costs you 30K a year. Now if you have been in business for a while and have retired employees drawing pension and benefits from you then you have to factor that in. So say you have 200 retired employees and each of them cost you 15K year in pension and benefits. So you can say your active payroll costs you 3million a year and your retired payroll costs you another 3 million a year. So your total employee costs is 6 million. If you divide that by the number of current employees you have you can then say that it costs you 60K per year per worker even though the current worker is only getting 30K of that. So when you see autoworkers making 80-100K a year most of that is not accurate. Sure there are some that make that, but most don't

02-11-2009, 06:49 PM
kane Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: portland, OR Posts: 20,684	I think the majority of the bailout money is going to banks and things like that which are not unionized. There are some things like the auto industry which are unionized getting some aid, but those are loans, not the flat out gifts that the bankers are getting. A lot of it is also going to garbage that has nothing to do with creating jobs and it is going directly into infrastructure work much of which will not be unionized work. I don't blame workers for trying to get everything they can from an employer. If I go to a company and they want to hire me and I demand a certain wage and benefits package and get it, great. The company should know what they can and cannot afford to pay me. If they give it to me what fault of it is mine? As for the unions causing the global downturn of the auto industry. There is a lot more to it than that. All of the car companies are hurting, even those that don't use unions. The main thing that car companies did wrong (IMO) is they bet the farm on the SUV. The somehow convinced everyone that they needed to own a 30K+ SUV that most could barely afford to begin with then when gas shot up to nearly $5 a gallon they couldn't afford to drive it. So now people are not buying those big cars, but the car companies are in a position where they rely on selling them to make their profits. I'm not saying unions are without blame. But there is a myth that many believe that most auto workers are making 80K+ a year and have world class benefits. My brother is a teamster (not auto, construction) and he has shitty medical and dental coverage. After 12 years with the company he still gets just 2 weeks vacation a year and only gets 16 hours a sick time a year. The number that most people use for the union wage also includes the pension/benefits of retired and past employees. So they add in all the money the car company is paying out to current employees in wages and benefits and they add in all the pension and benefits for past and retired employees and they take that big number and divide it by the number of employees they have working today. That number represents how much it costs them for each employee, not necessarily how much each employee is getting. Here is an example: Say you had 100 employees and each earned 20K a year in wages and benefits for each cost another 10K a year. You can then say each employee costs you 30K a year. Now if you have been in business for a while and have retired employees drawing pension and benefits from you then you have to factor that in. So say you have 200 retired employees and each of them cost you 15K year in pension and benefits. So you can say your active payroll costs you 3million a year and your retired payroll costs you another 3 million a year. So your total employee costs is 6 million. If you divide that by the number of current employees you have you can then say that it costs you 60K per year per worker even though the current worker is only getting 30K of that. So when you see autoworkers making 80-100K a year most of that is not accurate. Sure there are some that make that, but most don't Last edited by kane; 02-11-2009 at 06:50 PM..