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Old 04-24-2009, 03:19 AM  
kane
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Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: portland, OR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gideongallery View Post
So in your gun analogy you want the gun store owner to be left alone UNTIL there is PROOF that they were aware it was being used Illegally. But there is no communication before the torrent is downloaded, there is no possible way for the pirate bay to know if you are using it legitimately or not. They can tell the difference between me downloading only shows i bought and someone downloading shows they didn't buy. By your example they should be left alone.
This is my last response to this thread. I'm leaving in a few hours for a short vacation. I'll check back when I get back in a few days so I can see how I am wrong

Here is what I am saying. If Pirate Bay allows the torrent for the new Wolverine movie to be on its site 100% of the people downloading that movie are doing something illegal. That movie hasn't even gotten to theaters yet but it did get leaked somehow. So if that torrent is on the site, it is illegal. You can't argue that pirate bay wouldn't know who is illegally downloading that movie because 100% of the people downloading that movie are doing it illegally.

If that torrent or any torrent for any movie that is either in theaters only or has been leaked pre-release (or any CD that has been leaked pre-release) is on the site then the site is being use for illegal purposes.



Quote:
nope i am argueing that a MAJORITY of people are using it as a legit service.
Fact 10 shows are broadcast shows not cable shows
fact highspeed internet access is need so poorer people who can't afford cable are not ging to be on the torrent anyway
fact tv shows represent 49%+ of all torrent traffic.
you are trying to argue that pirate bay should be held responsible for the MINORITY of people who use the system for illegal activity instead of going after those people directly.
That like saying that walmart should be sued because they sell vcrs that can be used to make bootleg copies of Video Tapes.
Again you fail to answer the question. How many of these MAJORITY you claim are simply timeshifting their content IE broadcast shows are living in areas where those shows are not available to them?

Lets use a few numbers. You say 49% of all torrent traffic is TV shows. Great. So then lets take pirate bay's numbers that somewhere around 9% of their connections come from north America (US and Canada although I do understand that not all US shows are shown in Canada) So if 100 people are downloading torrents from pirate bay that means that 49 of them are downloading TV shows. Of those 49 about 9 of them are from North America that means 40 of those people are from somewhere else. Where? Well according to that other study I posted it could be anywhere from Australia to the UK to Slovakia. Now you might argue that these shows are on the air in Australia or the Uk, but somehow I doubt Heroes and 24 are on every Monday in Slovakia. Maybe I am wrong though. Still if 9% of the connections are from the US (this is pirate bay's number not mine) then that would mean as much as 91% of the people downloading TV shows could be from areas where those shows don't air on broadcast TV or maybe even cable. If that is the case then those people are illegally downloading it.



Quote:
so basically fuck your part of the contract with the government for the exclusive rights they have given you.

if that was the way the law works, we would not have a VCR because universal said they didn't want their content distributed that way

we would not have mp3 either because the record industry wanted us to keep buying cds.

There is something completely wrong with trying to turn a conditional monopoly granted explictly to maximize distribution of the content, into an absolute monopoly that can be use to WHOLESALE prevent the distribution of content on new technology.

The only reason you have a right control your content is because the government has given you a monopoly on ECONOMIC distribution of your content, they gave you that limited monopoly with the intent of maximizing distribution of that content.

Lucky for the public whenever a copyright holder tries this bullshit the court ultimately rule that they don't have such a right, and it becomes fair use, a free market competition for the distribution of the content where you have no rights to stop it.

Basicallly if you refuse to hold up your end of the bargin then the courts will take away the monopoly benefits from you.
I disagree. Universal could agree to not put their movies out on tape. Sure the courts correctly say that they can build and sell VCRs. The courts (if challenged) would say that a person can build and create an MP3 player or a CD player or a DVD player, that doesn't mean that a content provider should be forced to have their content distributed on that network and made available to anyone who wants it if they do not choose to. Some will, and they will make money from it and some won't and they won't and they don't want to and lose out that is there problem.

If I create a movie and I don't want some guy in bumfuck, nowhere downloading it because he can't buy it I should retain that right and if there are companies out there that are helping to facilitate the distribution of my content against my will I should be allowed to protect myself against them.

Universal fought the VCR and lost and it was a good ruling by the court. Still, there was no ruling that forced universal to distribute its content via video tape and if someone decided to somehow make bootleg copies of their movies on video tape and sell then they would go after them. No different with torrents. If I make a movie and it ends up online against my will and people who I don't want to have access to it are downloading it, I should be able to go after those people and the people that help facilitate that theft.


Quote:
it has noting to do with entiltement it has eveything to do with expecting copyright holders to live up to responsiblity of the contract they have with the goverment, they did not give you a monopoly so that you could dictatorially control people lives (tell them what they can and can not see) they did so so that the monetary insentive to create the work was there so that the public could consume the content.

Your statement is the exact definition of someone with entitlement issues. Your statement is basically saying that as long as you don't harm a content producer monetarily then you should just be allowed to take whatever you want as long as it isn't available to you to buy. When I was growing up there was a lot of things I wanted. Some of those things I couldn't afford and some of those things were just not available to me because of where I lived. Guess what my mom told me? She told me tough luck, in life you can't always have every little thing you desire. You seem to think differently. I go back to my previous statement. If I don't want someone is Spain seeing my movie, that should be up to me. It doesn't matter if the my doing that costs me money, it is my money to lose. Just because someone in Spain may want to see my movie doesn't mean they are entitled to see it.




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regional and temporally restricted content is going to be the next fair use battle
I have said that such a declaration of right is exactly the same "we licience it to consumers on a limited bases, at a specific day on a specific time" which was struck down in the beta max case.

What different betwen your statement "i don't want that country to have access, for no monetary reason whatsoever"
Think of it like this. Maybe if the show Heroes is not shown in certain countries the studio that produces Heroes doesn't want the people in that country downloading the show because they are planning to eventually sell them the show on DVD in that country. this goes back to the original statement. If the show was not available to you on TV or cable and you are downloading it, you are not using torrents as a VCR and according to pirate bay's estimates that could be as many as 91% of the people downloading. I'm sure the number isn't near that high because I know a lot of these shows get broadcast globally, but I would be willing to bet it is a pretty decent amount of the people.

Last edited by kane; 04-24-2009 at 03:24 AM..
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