Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleasurepays
Its easy to make hindsight arguments with the benefit of having 30 years to look at the issue and its after effects.
Such arguments do not take into account the issues of the day, the threats of the day, the national security interests of the day, the shifting of threats and interests at that time, predicted future shifts and so on. the decision to fuck with Iran's leadership wasn't just a random act by some bored people.
At the end of the day for example, we took a totally lawless nation 100% in support of terrorism, training terrorists and exporting terrorism who was harboring Bin Laden, like Afghanistan and turned it into a democracy where more people participate in elections than idiots in this nation do. Similar thing happening in Iraq - although its not the popular thing to talk about obvious successes.
Are those two countries perfect today? Of course not. there will be a lot of continued difficulty associated with making the transition from an autocratic state ran by a brutal, genocidal regime or a theocratic state governed by random idiots, toting AK-47's, running around raping and killing and beating the shit out of people in the name of "Sharia Law" - but to deny the positive change and the positive direction these nations are taking right in the middle of some of the worlds most volatile and unstable nations is being disingenuous.
Bush will never be remembered for anything good in the West. He will be remembered for being the poorly spoken, redneck jackass that he often was. That's the nature of history. It is the middle east in 50 years that will still remember Bush... just as when i moved to Russia in 96 for 10 years and people were still remembering and regularly discussing Reagan and his role in bringing down the Soviet Union.
To say that the changes in the last 10 years in the middle east, the emergence of new democracies and their success have had ZERO influence on today's events in Iran is not a very intellectually honest position.
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Oh please, 50 years ago it was about oil fields.. not about stopping terrorism. England asked the US for help because Iran wanted their land back... there was no high and mighty US mission to prevent terrorism.
They stepped in to stop Iran from electing an Iranian leader rather than an English or American appointed leader and that's that, no matter how much you try to spin it.
That's not to say that anything happening today has anything to do with oil fields as I believe it doesn't, but... the operation 50 years ago was done in secret, no one knew about it for 40+ years. How do we know there isn't more behind the scenes now that we might not know about for another 40 years?
As for anything in the last 10 years having an influence? I'd say everything in the last 100 years have had an influence.. and most of it negative. If England and US had just kept their noses out, would it be better or worse? Would their democracy 50 years ago put them on a better path?
Thing is, we'll never truly know. But it's done wonders for other countries 50 years after they moved to a democracy so there is at least a chance. But all that was taken away.
Makes me wonder, if the US decided to become it's own nation and pick it's own leader and that was all taken away and plunged into many more decades of outside rule and influence... would the US people be as understanding?