Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbie
I was talking about this part of that article:
"October 29, 2004 General Motors has adapted a HUMMER H2 SUT to run on hydrogen, and will share it with the office of the Governor of California (aka Arnold Schwarzenegger). The HUMMER H2H will assist efforts to learn more about hydrogen storage and refueling infrastructure development. "The H2H is a bold experiment that along with the Hydrogen Highway Network will help California demonstrate the economic and technical viability of hydrogen," said California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. "Californians invent the future and the H2H shows that a vehicle of today can run on the fuel of tomorrow."
So I'm guessing the "Hydrogen Highway Network" was going to be fueling stations?
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It was to create the infrastructure of them. A learning experience.
They had/wanted to figure out if they could really service locations and what issues they were up against.
But the H2 on hydrogen (H2H) is not a fuel cell vehicle and was never made for the public.
It was a conversion internal combustion engine. It had a compressor to increase the compression ratio (supercharger). That got you up to 180 HP on hydrogen.
$20,000 just for the conversion.
Not near it's natural over 300 HP on gasoline (it's a 6,000lb vehicle) and the fuel range was under 65 miles with the installed tanks. But that is all they needed for their experiment.
The experiment is distribution of fuel over a region that would be the same if they were fuel cell vehicles. Probably had some other testers that got no media using them.
Just because they successfully did it does not mean they could make it a profitable operation. It was a learning experiment. Those were not 'self service stations' and even Arnold, the governor could not 'fill' his own vehicle. But could be made safer self serve. May have been since then.
Somehow, it did not make much news but he also had a couple of diesel powered hummers. One ran on Veggy oil and one on bio diesel (not a lot of difference but different they are).
Those were much more cost effective in any way you measure it. More cost efficient to convert and run on a daily bases. More cost efficient to distribute the fuel for. And folks have been doing that all over the US without helpful intervention. Same with CNG.
In fact, take a look at the US DOE map of nationwide CNG stations. I have not looked at this in a few years and it continues to grow.
https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/natura...arest?fuel=CNG
Here is the same for hydrogen
https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/hydrog...earest?fuel=HY
BioDiesel
https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/hydrog...earest?fuel=BD
The cost of H in southern Cal is on average $14 per kilogram. About the equivalent of $5.50 a gal of gasoline. Not sure what it would be without tax incentives.
But know that without road tax and sales tax in Ca, gas would be about $1 gal cheaper.
And nobody is getting a tax break on profits from gasoline sales.
The average cost of CNG in gasoline equivalent is $2.05 per eq gal
Hydrogen 'can be' transported by cryogenic liquid tanker, getting it down to -423F.
I hope nobody thinks that does not take a bit of energy to do and costs a bit.
You can not store that very long at those temperatures unless you keep it refrigerated.
The answer to this for hydrogen is more localized producers. Preferably using solar and wind to generate the electric needed to separate the H from H2O.
Currently (I think it still holds true) that you 'can' make it cheaper than you can distribute it in that method.
There is a infrastructure for distribution that exists for industrial purposes.
I think they might be onboard if the infrastructure of stations were there.
In fact, after a new look... (last years news)
https://corporatenews.pressroom.toyo...california.htm
If we are not careful, we will be in one of those chicken and the egg quagmires. Toyota, Honda & BMW have invested in regional distribution here in the states. Even at least plans for NY.
But how long do you think they will sustain losses if it can't grow profitably on it's own. Tesla surprisingly did very well with their charging stations. I may open a station or two myself distributing all alt fuels. The timing seems right unless there is hanky panky in regulation created by those who would be foes of alt energy.
So yes, we need government incentive to help make it happen with tax incentives.
Perhaps even loan guarantees. I prefer this move on it's own merit cause when a 3rd party is involved in 'keeping it gong', the costs seem to go up as folks leach the system just like health care.
Doubt we will see help under the current admin. But we can hope. Hopefully he won't do anything to disrupt the progress made.
But if we were to get 15% converted to Hydrogen, 15% to Methane and 15% on biodiesel and perhaps 20% methanol in gas from sugar cane (not corn) we might be the largest net exporter of oil in the world.
Currently, we still import oil to fill our consumption needs. That has been shrinking since the fracking industry came to play. If you look at it the way they sell you, it is 'North America' that will be energy independent by 2021 (a play with words). That includes CAD and MX, major exporters to the US. We still import big time and will for the foreseeable future unless something is done on the demand side. All the above is the answer.
It's all about who you want to serve. To much power in any one spot is good for nobody.
Energy providers of the past have certainly shown that to us.
Do not allow big mergers !
When I last bought a array of solar panels, I bought the best at the time and paid what I thought was a bargain then of $7.50 per watt. Going rate then was over $9. Shortly after, BP bought the company out and quit making my panel.
Mine have survived 1.5-2.5 inch hailstones twice without indecent. But they are at he end of their 20 year design life, but still produce better than 95% of rated output.
Everyone asked me if I was saving anything and how much.
At the time, I did not care about the savings, just to have clean reliable power all the time was the issue. But I got a complete payback in 6 years for all the equipment.
How do you put a price on the value of having power when nobody else around does ?
Now... you can buy new panels, perhaps not made as well physically, at about $2 a watt.
The rest of the equipment is less than half the cost and much better and more versatile.
I have been looking at slightly used large array's at $1 a watt. And have the real estate to place them. I don't really need them but a novel project in perhaps making my own HHO, but will likely power a geothermal heating/cooling system and some other stuff.
Anyway, there is a lot to know about this stuff and you can't really understand it with just a few days of googles. I don't track it as close as I once did. A lot has change in just 2 years.