Originally Posted by SmokeyTheBear

that wasnt my point at all. I was just questioning the validity of the term " legit" . Optimizing your page for google is un-legit period.. in google's eyes , anything you do to increase your rank , and you and i both know there arent very many sites ( almost ZERO ) including google itself that doesnt do things primarily to increase rank.. Its a double edged sword.. If you create pages and never once did anything to increase your rank , then i commend you for being one of the very few that can make a success using this method..

but take the devils advocate approach , when your site didnt rank better it was because the other site ranked higher, nothing less nothing more.. your rank has nothing to do with your ethics.. , sure there are ways to increase your se rank by doing unethical things , i'm not questioning that fact , im saying "black hat seo " and unethical are 2 seperate things