Are PUBLIC SECTOR unions really needed?

[$5 submissions]

No doubt private unions are needed. No one here remembers how fucked up things were. Dangerous mines. Serf-like conditions. Fucked up meat packing plants. Private unions push worker safety and helped alleviate the conditions of the working masses. Amen.

But what about PUBLIC (aka government sector) unions? Anyone hear of the great DMV Flood or Title Registration Cave-In or slave-like toil at the DMV (except if you're unlucky enough to be in line) or overseer beatdowns of teachers in classrooms? Me neither.

What have been the effect of public unions on pensions, state deficits, and flexibility in state hiring?

Voice your support or concern here.

[brassmonkey]

no comment

[PornoMonster]

NO,
Most of the money in Union Dues, goes back to the political people supporting these Gov unions, and giving raises. Never ending circle!

[$5 submissions]

Originally Posted by brassmonkey

no comment

Say it, man. We're all adults here

[the Shemp]

power to the workers ...

[Vendzilla]

The money from dues going to political issues was the only thing I had against being in a union. They made sure we got better pay and the working conditions were taking care of by osha, but the unions set mileage, tools, training, things like that. I just think that being in a union working for the public, you shouldn't be excempt from a recession. After thinking about it for a while, I'm against them taking away bargaining rights, but I'm also against having to join a union to get a job with the state. Conflicted!

[looky_lou]

Very simply. NO!

[Barry-xlovecam]

A law similar to the Davis-Bacon Act Prevailing Wage.

No strikes.

Public sector unions would have a legitimate cause in grievance resolution, with disputes resolved in binding arbitration.

[Sausage]

Unions ... especially public sector unions can often get too much power and go way too far.

I used to work in an office where if you wanted to move a piece of equipment like a photocopier we actually had to have a union representitive present and in some cases union permission. You virtually had to kill someone to get the sack, and if you worked too hard you often got in trouble with your union. It was crazy. Unions do serve some important roles, but more often than not they just stand in the way of progress and productivity.. especially public sector unions.


But what I don't understand over there about this fiasco that is playing out, is how can politicians just up and leave and go into hiding, yet not get sacked or get in any trouble? You pulled that stunt here and your career would be toast.

[tony286]

Originally Posted by Vendzilla

The money from dues going to political issues was the only thing I had against being in a union. They made sure we got better pay and the working conditions were taking care of by osha, but the unions set mileage, tools, training, things like that. I just think that being in a union working for the public, you shouldn't be exempt from a recession. After thinking about it for a while, I'm against them taking away bargaining rights, but I'm also against having to join a union to get a job with the state. Conflicted!

you are funny lol If union didnt deal with political issues and big corps did. Then they can push for laws that make the unions ineffective and fuck the workers in the ass.
Also WI isnt about money it was about union busting. The middle class is stinking they keep cutting money fucking the worker. Considering the schooling one needs to be a teacher and considering the hours they work. I know a teacher he puts in a about 12 hrs a day for work. For what 50 K ? Also I dont hear the republican politicians saying cut our pay ,benefits and life long pension. Its all talk to get people like yourself to vote against your own interests. Its very sad

[BlackCrayon]

they have pros and cons. cons being bad employees are hard to fire, too much red tape, etc. pros being, cuts can't be made without the union agreeing to them.

[Buff]

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[IllTestYourGirls]

Originally Posted by tony286

you are funny lol If union didnt deal with political issues and big corps did. Then they can push for laws that make the unions ineffective and fuck the workers in the ass.
Also WI isnt about money it was about union busting. The middle class is stinking they keep cutting money fucking the worker. Considering the schooling one needs to be a teacher and considering the hours they work. I know a teacher he puts in a about 12 hrs a day for work. For what 50 K ? Also I dont hear the republican politicians saying cut our pay ,benefits and life long pension. Its all talk to get people like yourself to vote against your own interests. Its very sad

A higher tax rate hurts the low and middle class.

[u-Bob]

You know I'm a libertarian, so I guess you already know my answer.

[pornguy]

Sadly the answer is really yes and no.

[Wizzo]

Right to Work is the only way, screw unions...

[tony286]

Originally Posted by IllTestYourGirls

A higher tax rate hurts the low and middle class.

Been giving the rich and big biz all types of taxes breaks and dont see all types of employment coming back. The unions been giving back years and they are greedy thats too funny. When people wake up it will be too late.fuck its already too late. And when the repub president comes in and 10 percent unemployment is the new normal and the middle class will keep strinking. People will actually have the balls to be surprised.

[Vendzilla]

Originally Posted by tony286

you are funny lol If union didnt deal with political issues and big corps did. Then they can push for laws that make the unions ineffective and fuck the workers in the ass.
Also WI isnt about money it was about union busting. The middle class is stinking they keep cutting money fucking the worker. Considering the schooling one needs to be a teacher and considering the hours they work. I know a teacher he puts in a about 12 hrs a day for work. For what 50 K ? Also I dont hear the republican politicians saying cut our pay ,benefits and life long pension. Its all talk to get people like yourself to vote against your own interests. Its very sad

So if you are a union member, something you can't avoid if you want the job and those dues you pay go toward beliefs that are not yours, you're ok with that?

I just put a kid thru the public school system, it's fucked. It's needs an overhaul. There are a lot of shitty teachers out there that either don't care or because of whinny little politically correct attitudes can't manage the kids in the class room and have a 22% drop out rate in the US because of it, tell me where this is working?

In June the house voted down a Republican proposal to cut federal employees' 2011 pay raise.

The 227-to-183 vote against the pay freeze was applauded by federal unions and other employee groups, which said it would have unnecessarily hurt federal employees at a time when the government is facing many challenges.

http://www.federalsoup.com/forum_pos...-raise-in-2011


I'm waiting for your rebuttal!

[tony286]

Lets see first, the reason the job has good pay and benefits is because of the union. Then if u dont like unions viewpoint dont take the job. Now wi they are number two in the country for educatuon, in madison 94 percent of the students go on to college. Its union busting plain and simple.its ashame aworking man like yourself has drank this bullshit koolaid

[IllTestYourGirls]

Originally Posted by tony286

Been giving the rich and big biz all types of taxes breaks and dont see all types of employment coming back. The unions been giving back years and they are greedy thats too funny. When people wake up it will be too late.fuck its already too late. And when the repub president comes in and 10 percent unemployment is the new normal and the middle class will keep strinking. People will actually have the balls to be surprised.

Unions have been giving back? Then why do they only pay 0.5% to their own retirement?

Taxing business will create jobs? Please....lol

[IllTestYourGirls]

Originally Posted by tony286

Lets see first, the reason the job has good pay and benefits is because of the union. Then if u dont like unions viewpoint dont take the job. Now wi they are number two in the country for educatuon, in madison 94 percent of the students go on to college. Its union busting plain and simple.its ashame aworking man like yourself has drank this bullshit koolaid

If you do not like working 12 hour days and the terms you employer sets dont take the job.

[Rochard]

I don't think unions are needed at all. They might have been needed at the time - a long time ago - to protect the workers, but now it's gotten out of control. Employees use unions to get a good paying job, do as little work as possible, and stay in an entry level position for decades.

I worked for the phone company. I was stunned to see fifty year old men and women who had the same entry level position for thirty years.

[Wizzo]

Originally Posted by Rochard

I don't think unions are needed at all. They might have been needed at the time - a long time ago - to protect the workers, but now it's gotten out of control. Employees use unions to get a good paying job, do as little work as possible, and stay in an entry level position for decades.

I worked for the phone company. I was stunned to see fifty year old men and women who had the same entry level position for thirty years.

[Vendzilla]

Originally Posted by tony286

Lets see first, the reason the job has good pay and benefits is because of the union. Then if u dont like unions viewpoint dont take the job. Now wi they are number two in the country for educatuon, in madison 94 percent of the students go on to college. Its union busting plain and simple.its ashame aworking man like yourself has drank this bullshit koolaid

Wisconsin as a state has one of the highest graduation levels for high school at 90%.

Which is still a lot lower than when I went to high school.

Why?

Right now those teachers you say are so saintly are getting doctor notes from doctors in the crowds that aren't even their doctors, which is breaking their contract agreement, they are public employee's, they shouldn't be allowed to walk off the job, what about the kids?

You want to know who to blame? Barry has had control of the house and senate for 2 years and what has improved in the US? He even ignored his own words in saying that we need to cut spending in his proposal for a new spending and investing budget?

[_Richard_]

if you think libya is bad, they did that in america too.. dropping bombs on striking workers etc

those whom forget history..

[CaptainHowdy]

Yes, of course ...

[tony286]

It changed since you went to school for two reasons first one there was a mother and father in a house and dad could work and make enough alone to take care of his family. Secondly tax rates were higher more money for education.

[Agent 488]

unions are more or less broken in the US anyway. this is just the final attack.

[Vendzilla]

Originally Posted by tony286

It changed since you went to school for two reasons first one there was a mother and father in a house and dad could work and make enough alone to take care of his family. Secondly tax rates were higher more money for education.

We didn't have illegal aliens sucking up free breakfast and lunches and getting bi lingual teachers.

Local high school had to hire one teacher for 10 students that immigrated here from Laos.

My parents were divorced, step dad didn't join a union till I was over 21

We didn't have money from the state lottery

[tony286]

You know what im talking about your not stupid. Im done go on drinking the koolaid.

[$5 submissions]

Originally Posted by IllTestYourGirls

Unions have been giving back? Then why do they only pay 0.5% to their own retirement?

This is the key here. Participation % in retirement and other benefits. Private participation, if its even available, is much higher.

[tony286]

Originally Posted by Rochard

I don't think unions are needed at all. They might have been needed at the time - a long time ago - to protect the workers, but now it's gotten out of control. Employees use unions to get a good paying job, do as little work as possible, and stay in an entry level position for decades.

I worked for the phone company. I was stunned to see fifty year old men and women who had the same entry level position for thirty years.

Generalize much, i know union people that work harder than you could imagine. Physical back breaking labor. Unions arent needed anymore lets see wages have been flat for yrs. No more pension so wall st can disolve your. 401k tomorrow the market goes in the shitter.benefits are getting smaller and smaller while exec pay is getting larger and larger. It seems they are needed more than ever maybe when we are making 30 cents an hr. Then maybe people will realize we were drinking the bullshit koolaid we arent one of them they just needed us to get their agenda thru.

[Vendzilla]

Tony I posted this in another thread. But carter did this to the federal workers when he was in office. Are they suffering? Federal employees don't have collective bargaining anymore and they are doing fine

[Kiopa_Matt]

Should public unions exist?

Do government officials fuck people over?

Yes and yes.

PS. Vendzilla, aren't you the diehard Republican, who loves his freedom, privacy, individual rights, and all that good stuff? If anything, you should be all for unions. It's a band of individual citizens getting together, to speak out against the government.

[Vendzilla]

Originally Posted by Kiopa_Matt

Should public unions exist?

Do government officials fuck people over?

Yes and yes.

PS. Vendzilla, aren't you the diehard Republican, who loves his freedom, privacy, individual rights, and all that good stuff? If anything, you should be all for unions. It's a band of individual citizens getting together, to speak out against the government.

I stopped being a republican when they brought in the religious right. I do believe in unions with some exceptions.
I don't think that it's appropriate for government workers to be forced into a union then have their dues used towards one party, and be told to vote for one party.
I have two union cards, IUEC and Teamsters.

And everyone, democrat and republican, independent and libertarian should be for individual citizens getting together to speak out against the government, anything less is not American.

The unions are blaming the republicans for wanting to get rid of them, when it was the democrats that got rid of the unions representing the federal government.

But we have been fed the BS for a long time, like we are lead to believe that the Mayflower landed on Plymouth rock to be free from religious persecution, when in fact, the Americas was the second stop and Plymouth rock was the second stop in the Americas, they landed in Plymouth rock because according to ships logs they were out of beer!

Barry has been caught in so many lies it isn't very funny, all he wanted was the backing of the unions, but has he done anything to help the unions? the unions as we know them will be pretty much dead after this. And with it the funding to the democrat party, that's sad!
We need a balance and we haven't had one in 10 years, last time we had a balanced budget, 10 years!

[Sunny Day]

Work in the US & get hurt or get killed on the job, the state & and union will help you fight for collecting workers comp. If you're a federal employee, even the union is barred from helping you.
Look at any contract you sign with a bank, car rental, credit card, software purchase, etc. They dictate all the terms, you can't change anything. Same as employees with no unions.

[tony286]

http://tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/Pe...S?OpenDocument

[Vendzilla]

Indiana state workers had their collective bargaining taken away 6 years ago. Why didn't that make the news like this and how have the state workers suffered?

[Cherry7]

ALways interesting about workers who go on about the "the right not to join a union", when the union wins a pay rise, do they then refuse to take it?

A union is a democratic organisation of it members to promote the interests of it members and workers in general. What is wrong with excepting the majority decision if you work in the same place?

[PornoMonster]

Originally Posted by Rochard

I don't think unions are needed at all. They might have been needed at the time - a long time ago - to protect the workers, but now it's gotten out of control. Employees use unions to get a good paying job, do as little work as possible, and stay in an entry level position for decades.

I worked for the phone company. I was stunned to see fifty year old men and women who had the same entry level position for thirty years.

All depends on where you work!
I work at a job where the union was strong, and now they were bought out.
This company now, fuckes everyone, fires you for no good reson. People that have been there 5,10,15,18 years all let go for any reason, why it is a Right to work state.

Anyone who says find another job, can GFY.

[Vendzilla]

Originally Posted by Cherry7

ALways interesting about workers who go on about the "the right not to join a union", when the union wins a pay rise, do they then refuse to take it?

A union is a democratic organisation of it members to promote the interests of it members and workers in general. What is wrong with excepting the majority decision if you work in the same place?

I think there are times when it's ok to have to belong to a union to get the job, Construction is one of them, I felt better working on a union only job because I knew that the other workers I worked with had some training. I did throw one guy off a job and he damn near got the crap beaten out of him for sweeping debris into an elevator shaft.

Unions are not a guarantee that you will be safe, employers push the rules sometimes harder when a union is in place, working as a teamster I saw that several times.

[Bryan G]

Don't get me started on unions. I know someone here who works for the city. His job consists of sitting in a booth and pressing a button to weight garbage trucks when they come into the yard. He makes around 65k a year, full benefits, 6 weeks vacation and 40 sick days a year. I would lose my mind doing the job but that should be a $15/hr job.

[beerptrol]

If the city/state or company want to fuck with you as an employee it's hard to get away with it if you have the voice of many backing you up. But if you are just one person then you're fucked

Funny how these politicians what to cut benefits, and pay of others, but refuse to have the same done to their benefits, pay, and perks.

[PornoMonster]

Originally Posted by Bryan G

Don't get me started on unions. I know someone here who works for the city. His job consists of sitting in a booth and pressing a button to weight garbage trucks when they come into the yard. He makes around 65k a year, full benefits, 6 weeks vacation and 40 sick days a year. I would lose my mind doing the job but that should be a $15/hr job.

Hey that is Gov Unions for you.
I am against gov unions, but private ones are a necessary evil

[tony286]

Originally Posted by beerptrol

If the city/state or company want to fuck with you as an employee it's hard to get away with it if you have the voice of many backing you up. But if you are just one person then you're fucked

Funny how these politicians what to cut benefits, and pay of others, but refuse to have the same done to their benefits, pay, and perks.

Yep isnt that funny how that works but still people see them as serious.

[Vendzilla]

Originally Posted by beerptrol

If the city/state or company want to fuck with you as an employee it's hard to get away with it if you have the voice of many backing you up. But if you are just one person then you're fucked

Funny how these politicians what to cut benefits, and pay of others, but refuse to have the same done to their benefits, pay, and perks.

I think they should take a cut in pay to show, sort of like the new speaker of the house did by refusing his jet and flying commercial.

The cuts that Wisconsin made in corporate taxes are not to blame, they haven't gone into effect yet, not till June.

The budget is a mess there, mainly because of the last governor, he got caught raiding money from one account to pay another and now the state has to pay it back. With fines and lawyer fees.

[Cash4Me]

Unions should exist only to fight for workers right and not for privileges.
It's obvious that public sector unions want only public workers privileges.
FUCK THEM

[$5 submissions]

Unions are like ANY other institution--once the initial mandate has been achieved, it morphs into something else. In essence, it is a solution trying to find a problem to fix. Why? If it doesn't, it won't have any reason to exist, it won't need further funding.

This dynamic applies to many other situations, not just unions.

[Agent 488]

Originally Posted by Vendzilla

I think they should take a cut in pay to show, sort of like the new speaker of the house did by refusing his jet and flying commercial.

fuck that's funny. to you some crooked fuckwad giving up his private jet is the same as a family cutting into their everyday budget.

you are the stereotypical brainwashed american fighting against their own interests, it's right out of central casting. i could almost think you are some right-wing astroturf forum bot.

[Vendzilla]

Originally Posted by Agent 488

fuck that's funny. to you some crooked fuckwad giving up his private jet is the same as a family cutting into their everyday budget.

you are the stereotypical brainwashed american fighting against their own interests, it's right out of central casting. i could almost think you are some right-wing astroturf forum bot.

I love whatever I'm against you are for, I'm glad I have yet another fan, almost as stupid as BryanG or that fucktard GatorB, why do they both end in a letter like that I wonder?

I wasn't comparing someones family with Boehner, I was comparing him to the state senate, but since you failed in your hooked on phonics course, you missed that.

So am I to believe that you were for Speaker Pelosi useing Air Force aircraft to travel back to her district at an average cost of $28,210.51 per flight?
Atleast Boehner is cutting the cost of travel when states are having such fucked up budget short falls.

You can twist around what I say to all your delight and use this to call me names, but in the end, I'm just having a conversation with an idiot!