Doing work for companies that want an NDA

[camperjohn64]

I love talking with small companies (ie, 2 people) that want PHP or web development work done where they are adamant about having an NDA....then they give me a business plan or website idea from 1996...

[marketsmart]

Originally Posted by camperjohn64

I love talking with small companies (ie, 2 people) that want PHP or web development work done where they are adamant about having an NDA....then they give me a business plan or website idea from 1996...

you sound like a real fucking asshole....






.

[camperjohn64]

Stunned...

[marketsmart]

Originally Posted by camperjohn64

Stunned...

why are you stunned?

first of all, you know how many developers i have worked with that have resold code that i paid to have developed at a later date..

2nd, you are a service provider.. if someone wants you to sign an nda then either sign it and respect it or dont..

a lot of the developers i have worked with over the years were unreliable, shitty coders that thought they were better than they were, and would bail on a project before completed...

so, if i were you, i would be happy to have clients that are professional enough to want to protect their idea regardless of what the idea is or even if its been done years ago..






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[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by marketsmart

why are you stunned?

first of all, you know how many developers i have worked with that have resold code that i paid to have developed at a later date..

2nd, you are a service provider.. if someone wants you to sign an nda then either sign it and respect it or dont..

a lot of the developers i have worked with over the years were unreliable, shitty coders that thought they were better than they were, and would bail on a project before completed...

so, if i were you, i would be happy to have clients that are professional enough to want to protect their idea regardless of what the idea is or even if its been done years ago..

Summed up nicely.

There are plenty of programmers who will do as marketsmart has said. They will even use that as a foot note when being considered for a new bid. Including the web site, and saying they will just "borrow the code" from some other site they did for another client.

Whether they are a one man band with an idea, or a corporation with 100 employees is irrelevant. Their money deposits into your bank account, and spends the same. If you want the job, respect their wishes or not.

[Sly]

A friend of mine just paid a programmer to add an additional feature to an "off the shelf" script that he wrote. Low and behold, the next update carried the exact same feature.

I don't think it's unacceptable for "buyers" to require little hoops for interested parties to jump through.

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by Sly

A friend of mine just paid a programmer to add an additional feature to an "off the shelf" script that he wrote. Low and behold, the next update carried the exact same feature.

That happens more often than not.

[WarChild]

I love it when people hire programmers and don't realize that we own the code we write unless it's specified somewhere that it's a work for hire. What that means is that coders aren't "borrowing" or "stealing" from you or other clients when they reuse code.

I'm happy to do work for people on a work for hire basis. It costs a lot more though.

[Kiopa_Matt]

NDA is no problem. I hate when they try to include a non-compete clause though.

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by WarChild

I love it when people hire programmers and don't realize that we own the code we write unless it's specified somewhere that it's a work for hire. What that means is that coders aren't "borrowing" or "stealing" from you or other clients when they reuse code.

I suppose when you (i.e. programmers in general) "borrow" that base code for a new project from other open source site(s) available around the web,... that belongs to you as well then.

While there are some programmers who've developed their OWN stuff from scratch (i.e. every bit written by them). Many others simply pull from other open source available programs, make some minor changes, and call it their "own".

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by Kiopa_Matt

NDA is no problem. I hate when they try to include a non-compete clause though.

Yeah. Programmers hate that.

Having one client pay top dollar for a "for hire" type of project, and then taking away your ability to go and take their concept and sell it over and again. Essentially, double dipping.

If you want to resell their idea over and again, you charge pennies. If you want to charge them top dollar for something on a "for hire" basis. They own it. You do not get to resell it.

[Kiopa_Matt]

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

Yeah. Programmers hate that.

Having one client pay top dollar for a "for hire" type of project, and then taking away your ability to go and take their concept and sell it over and again. Essentially, double dipping.

If you want to resell their idea over and again, you charge pennies. If you want to charge them top dollar for something on a "for hire" basis. They own it. You do not get to resell it.

They can have ownership of the code, and that's fine. But for example, say the client is a dating site. Trying to make me sign a non-compete saying I'm not allowed to work on another dating site for 5 years is a bit ridiculous, unless it's a long-term relationship of some kind.

NDA and ownership of code I'm fine with. Non-compete I'm not.

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by Kiopa_Matt

They can have ownership of the code, and that's fine. But for example, say the client is a dating site. Trying to make me sign a non-compete saying I'm not allowed to work on another dating site for 5 years is a bit ridiculous.

NDA and ownership of code I'm fine with. Non-compete I'm not.

I concede your point. I was not referring to your example.

More so the one where you develop a site for one program, charge them top dollar as a for hire. Then go run out and resell a cheaper version to the masses. Licensing it over and over. So they have to compete with a bunch of clones.

[Barry-xlovecam]

http://www.iplawforstartups.com/who-...stom-software/

CYA

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

http://www.iplawforstartups.com/who-...stom-software/

Cliff notes:

The bottom line is that clean IP ownership to custom software requires a written contract and a genealogy of the creation of the code. Without both, IP ownership of custom software will remain unclear.

CYA

[woj]

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

I suppose when you (i.e. programmers in general) "borrow" that base code for a new project from other open source site(s) available around the web,... that belongs to you as well then.

While there are some programmers who've developed their OWN stuff from scratch (i.e. every bit written by them). Many others simply pull from other open source available programs, make some minor changes, and call it their "own".

You are looking at this wrong, you make it sound like when programmer "borrows" code from elsewhere he is doing something shady, when in reality he probably actually follows good engineering practices by reusing good tested code... only an idiot "reinvents the wheel"...

when you hire a programmer to get something done, you don't hire them to sit like an idiot in front of a computer for 80 hours to write some fresh code for you, you really hire them to come up with a solution to some problem, how the solution is achieved is irrelevant...

*unless you reach some other agreement with a programmer

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by woj

You are looking at this wrong, you make it sound like when programmer "borrows" code from elsewhere he is doing something shady, when in reality he probably actually follows good engineering practices by reusing good tested code... only an idiot "reinvents the wheel"...

No, you would have misunderstood my reply. That actually was not my point.

WC was claiming 'ownership' of the code. If you take code from somewhere else, make a few changes, and call it yours. It really isn't. That was the point.

If you write something from scratch, yes, you "own it". If you are "borrowing" from other places like open source, tested code, (hence the reference to genealogy of the code in previous reference) than it's something else.

[WarChild]

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

No, you would have misunderstood my reply. That actually was not my point.

WC was claiming 'ownership' of the code. If you take code from somewhere else, make a few changes, and call it yours. It really isn't. That was the point.

If you write something from scratch, yes, you "own it". If you are "borrowing" from other places like open source, tested code, (hence the reference to genealogy of the code in previous reference) than it's something else.

I think you've confused "programer" with "script kiddie".

My rates for programming are $90 an hour for code. I still own that code and may reuse it whevere I like. If it's a work for hire, the price starts at $150. The hourly rate is more, and it also takes more time.

For instance, I have several Windows libraries I've custom written over the years. A good example of ones I re-use in code are my SQL wrapper, HTTP wrapper and XML parser. If I'm writing something for you where I retain code ownership, then I don't have to rewrite a ton of SQL functions, I just use my ready made wrapper. Now if you want to own the code to do with what you like, I'm not going to simply give you my code libraries. So now you're not only paying $150 an hour, but you're paying me to re-write things as well.

Now all this being said, I have never nor would I ever re-sell somebody's custom solution. If you pay me to come up with a software solution, I'm not going to turn around and try to sell it to other people. I damn sure might use snippets of code in future projects though.

[sarettah]

I no longer sign ndas.

I do pretty much all my business on a handshake. I handle all projects as if they are under an nda for the most part.

It has worked for me.

[HarryMuff]

Make them pay an NDA signing fee.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by WarChild

Now all this being said, I have never nor would I ever re-sell somebody's custom solution. If you pay me to come up with a software solution, I'm not going to turn around and try to sell it to other people. I damn sure might use snippets of code in future projects though.

Exactly

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by WarChild

Now all this being said, I have never nor would I ever re-sell somebody's custom solution. If you pay me to come up with a software solution, I'm not going to turn around and try to sell it to other people. I damn sure might use snippets of code in future projects though.

Top notch.

[borked]

Originally Posted by marketsmart

you are a service provider.. if someone wants you to sign an nda then either sign it and respect it or dont..

[borked]

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

If you write something from scratch, yes, you "own it". If you are "borrowing" from other places like open source, tested code, (hence the reference to genealogy of the code in previous reference) than it's something else.

Exactly, which is why you mark your code as author: xxx copyright: xxx
When I write something from the ground up, I use my own framework and each file is headed with copyright. The rest can be used and abused as the person likes, but the framework rests mine. Anyone redistributing it without my permission is breaking copyright law.

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by borked

Exactly, which is why you mark your code as author: xxx copyright: xxx
When I write something from the ground up, I use my own framework and each file is headed with copyright. The rest can be used and abused as the person likes, but the framework rests mine. Anyone redistributing it without my permission is breaking copyright law.

True dat.

Speaking of which, I shot you an email to see if you have time to modify a CMS for me. It is one you've worked on before. The modifications should be fairly simple. Check your inbox.

[camperjohn64]

I think I was misunderstood. I meant to say "employers think they have this most amazing thing, that is already done 100 times over". It wasn't about not respecting new ideas. It was about being mis-informed.

I would bet money that marketsmart hires unrespectable programmers, because he is a troll, who is unrespectable himself. If you don't agree, you are free to pay up, because you will lose that bet.

[Linguist]

Originally Posted by camperjohn64

I love talking with small companies (ie, 2 people) that want PHP or web development work done where they are adamant about having an NDA....then they give me a business plan or website idea from 1996...

In cases like this, unless you're desperate, it's best to not accept them as a client.

If their idea sucks, they'll spend all this money and fail miserably with or without NDAs, resulting in more pain in the ass for you and them thinking that it was somehow your fault that their project failed.

[marketsmart]

Originally Posted by camperjohn64

I would bet money that marketsmart hires unrespectable programmers, because he is a troll, who is unrespectable himself. If you don't agree, you are free to pay up, because you will lose that bet.

you are a fucking idiot and a clown...

you have know idea who i hire and for what..

i got burned by so called top programmers that were all talk when it came to their skill..

now go play with the script skiddies, i doubt you are a decent programmer anyway...




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