Was there really a JESUS CHRIST?

[dropped9]

What do you think?

[alias]

He is a member of this forum.

[simmeon]

Seen him in Walmart the other day.

[the Shemp]

Originally Posted by dropped9

What do you think?

oh ya ...

[CaptainHowdy]

Anathema!

[CaptainHowdy]

[Radical Bucks]

He was just another man who made great speeches and found many dumb followers.

[seeandsee]

yes, he is now on sky, and he will be back

[jakeuk]

There seem to be a historical record of his existence but you just need to read what his followers call his 'imaculate conception' to come to you own conclusion about his paternity. Basically, you can interpolate the PR about how he was conceived to all the other miracles he was supposed to have performed.

[Nembrionic]

I'm pretty sure there was an actual man with a big charisma. Like a guru.

But there were no magical happenings.

[baddog]

Pretty sure it has been confirmed that the man existed.

[Spunky]

Jesus is lord!

[jakeuk]

Originally Posted by Spunky

Jesus is lord!

Very true, but the lord of what?

[Supz]

Not until Tim Tebow got here.

[vsex]

Originally Posted by baddog

Pretty sure it has been confirmed that the man existed.

Please show me some proof

[baddog]

Originally Posted by vsex

Please show me some proof

The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious ?Christians? (from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).

Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, ?the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.? There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, ?Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.? One version reads, ?At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.?

Unless you want to discount all history.

[barcodes]

[huey]

Anthony Robbins of his time with a great PR crew.

[VicD]

nope, no JC

[chaze]

Yes, he was a carpenter that did amazing things in his time including making people believe in being good.

[Scott McD]

He was a ladies man!

[DaddyHalbucks]

Maybe, maybe not.

But how about the idea of loving your fellow man?

[Babaganoosh]

I knew a Jesus Ramirez once. He used to run an exhaust shop in simi valley.

[d-null]

[BlackCrayon]

sure but there were a number of people claiming to be gods or the son of gods, a number of virgin births and other mythological hoey that people believed in back then;

[Caligari]

no doubt he existed and was probably a genius of both heart and mind, and probably a major empath.

wow that sounds corny, but what can ya do;)

.

[d-null]

[d-null]

Swedish band Marduk:

[porno jew]

[vsex]

Originally Posted by baddog

The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious ?Christians? (from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).

Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, ?the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.? There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, ?Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.? One version reads, ?At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.?

Unless you want to discount all history.

C'mon Lloyd, I need something other than a copy and paste from gotquestions.org

[d-null]

[AsianDivaGirlsWebDude]

ADG

[baddog]

Originally Posted by vsex

C'mon Lloyd, I need something other than a copy and paste from gotquestions.org

Do you deny the existence of Abraham? David? Goliath? Need to know what I am dealing with here.

[Caligari]

Originally Posted by baddog

Do you deny the existence of Abraham? David? Goliath? Need to know what I am dealing with here.

It's impossible to deny the existence of Christ, Abraham, etc because even if they never did exist in the flesh (which they probably did to some degree) they exist because people have seen them or felt them or read them as real historical people, and they will forever believe they are real.
Schrodinger's cat and the idea that things exist simply because we percieve them.
Which is valid enough.
This is why it's silly to confirm or deny the existence of extraterrestrials for example. They have been percieved so the cat's out of the bag. they exist on one plane or the other.

I've been drinking;)

.

[Mr Pheer]

Originally Posted by Radical Bucks

He was just another man who made great speeches and found many dumb followers.

President Obama?

[Joshua G]

If Jesus was real, what must he think of how we honor his birthday...idolizing a gluttunous fat man in red who promotes unrestrained consumption. The relentless drive to keep up with the joneses.

Corporate Christmas is the ultimate betrayal against Jesus.

.

[uno]

Originally Posted by Babaganoosh

I knew a Jesus Ramirez once. He used to run an exhaust shop in simi valley.

Oh I know several dozen Jesus' from Paterson and Newark.

[uno]

Originally Posted by Caligari

It's impossible to deny the existence of Christ, Abraham, etc because even if they never did exist in the flesh (which they probably did to some degree)
.

How did they exist at all if they never existed in the flesh? wtf?

[anexsia]

Originally Posted by uno

How did they exist at all if they never existed in the flesh? wtf?

great Burzum post by the way, can't believe he's finally out of prison.

[d-null]

Originally Posted by anexsia

great Burzum post by the way, can't believe he's finally out of prison.

[Paul Markham]

For sure there was. Too many followers after his death for there not to be.

The problem is from there, who was he really?

Many of the things like the raising from the dead, virgin birth were attributed to others namely the Roman God Mithra. Also there were prophecies prior to his birth that a "Messiah" was coming and he would do certain things.

The real problem in getting to the truth is what we have to go on is so little. The Roman Catholic church ran all religion, learning and teaching from 300 AD until very recently, in historical terms. They decided what went into the bible, what people read and taught. To stray from their interpretation often could result in this.



Which went on until the 17th Century.

The last burning by the Catholic Church in Latin America was of Mariana de Castro, Lima, 1732

One of the problems was the burning of documents saying anything the Roman Catholics didn't like and didn't fit their warped views. However Manuscripts like the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Gnostic gospels and writings are coming to light showing more of the truth.

I watch too much TV and on my way back to watch more.

[nikki99]

yes and he was not blonde, we was black, is on revelations, black jesus

[baddog]

Originally Posted by uno

How did they exist at all if they never existed in the flesh? wtf?

What is that conclusion based on?

Did Mohammed exist?

[nikki99]

Originally Posted by baddog

Did Mohammed exist?

yes he did

[baddog]

Originally Posted by nikki99

yes he did

Well, you agree that Jesus existed too, so my question was for those that suggest he was never born.

[SomeCreep]

I think if his bones existed or if his final resting place were truly known, countries would go to war to have it.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by SomeCreep

I think if his bones existed or if his final resting place were truly known, countries would go to war to have it.

Like countries need real excuses to go to war?

[raymor]

It's interesting to read the historical accounts from romans and others who were either anti-Christian or disinterested observers.

[$5 submissions]

Originally Posted by huey

Anthony Robbins of his time with a great PR crew.

Tony Robbins drove out demons? He also calmed storms? Robbins also restored a shrunken paralytic man's arms? What type of grape juice did Tony turn that water into? Wow, that Tony Robbins sure is something else.

[$5 submissions]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

The real problem in getting to the truth is what we have to go on is so little. The Roman Catholic church ran all religion, learning and teaching from 300 AD until very recently, in historical terms. They decided what went into the bible, what people read and taught. To stray from their interpretation often could result in this.

Great discussion, Paul. Here's my contribution:

My quote of your post isolates the KEY PROBLEM. People equate CHRISTIANITY with people WHO CLAIMED/CLAIM to be Christians but acted OTHERWISE (crusades, wars of religion, thinly disguised land grabs done in the name of "fighting heretics", bringing "true religion" to "savages" (aka colonial imperialism using religion to pacify "the natives"), etc etc. It's not like this wasn't prophesied in the Bible. Apostle Paul himself wrote 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 which warned of a "Man of Sin" who will take the name of God and do ungodly things (think: very human agendas like power, pride, and domination). Daniel 7 warns of the "little horn" that would usurp God's law and persecute those who believe God's word. The Apocalypse mentions the power of spiritual Babylon and mixing human agendas with the word of God in order to deceive.

And as you mentioned, it all did come to pass, the Roman "church" killed, ran down, and persecuted those who deviated from its theology (which was really a CONVENIENT mix of pagan traditions and church imperatives clothed in some agreeable biblical justifications)

Many (not all) critics of Christianity are laboring under assumptions which use a straw man argument. It's the classic strawman argument- you create a strawman (catholic abuses / historical abuses by preachers behaving badly / historic abuses of Christianity to pursue all too human agendas), knock it down, and claim to knock down what the Bible really means (personal transformation through surrender to God and sharing in Christ's victory through faith in Christ's sacrifice). In essence, by claiming the destruction of fake worship based on Justification by Works, those who bash Christians also claim they destroyed faith based on Grace through faith...