who here mid 40's and up is on TRT

[Grapesoda]

if you're not you should be... you'll thank us later... BUT get your liver, prostrate and pituitary checked first...

[TheSquealer]

I love it. Doing it for years. Would never stop.

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

I love it. Doing it for years. Would never stop.

any long term affects? still getting regular blood work? I did 12 weeks, stopped for a month then got TRT from a DR. nice to pick everything up at the pharmacy for sure.

[sperbonzo]

I know, I could Google it, but what is TRT?



.

[DaCaptain]

Testosterone Replacement Therapy

[u-Bob]

Originally Posted by DaCaptain

Testosterone Replacement Therapy

thanks .

[Wilbo]

I dunno if it's true or not, but I heard that your body will quit producing testosterone at the levels it is supposed to if you introduce an artificial source. So if you start you have to do it forever. Did you hear this? I'm 51 and would love to build more muscle the easy way.

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by Wilbo

I dunno if it's true or not, but I heard that your body will quit producing testosterone at the levels it is supposed to if you introduce an artificial source. So if you start you have to do it forever. Did you hear this? I'm 51 and would love to build more muscle the easy way.

it's not the easy way. I have several long standing joint injuries. in fact I was disabled from my previous career. trt allows me almost full range of motion, a great reduction in pain, better moods and the ability to handel more stress and bullshit. basically rolled the clock back 10+ years on my body. plan to take it until the 'end'

[AsianDivaGirlsWebDude]

ADG

[Wilbo]

Originally Posted by bm bradley

it's not the easy way. I have several long standing joint injuries. in fact I was disabled from my previous career. trt allows me almost full range of motion, a great reduction in pain, better moods and the ability to handel more stress and bullshit. basically rolled the clock back 10+ years on my body. plan to take it until the 'end'

How much does it cost?

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by bm bradley

any long term affects? still getting regular blood work? I did 12 weeks, stopped for a month then got TRT from a DR. nice to pick everything up at the pharmacy for sure.

Tical will chime in eventually and he is by far more knowledgeable than me. The long term effects is that you'll be awesome 24/7.

The only real risk with test in supplemental amounts is that when you introduce it into your body, natural production declines (look up "HTPA Axis") and can stop completely (depending on a few factors). The consequence would be to always take testosterone. But when compared to the benefits... if you aren't planning to have more children... then it's a no brainer as far as i'm concerned. It's a common thing in life to have people with pituitary damage (head trauma to that area) or genetic problem and have to take hormones.

A lot of people will chime in as always about the "negatives" and if you've ever read any of these threads in the past, you know that none of them speak from experience or real knowledge on the subject.

[BIGTYMER]

Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

ADG

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by bm bradley

it's not the easy way. I have several long standing joint injuries. in fact I was disabled from my previous career. trt allows me almost full range of motion, a great reduction in pain, better moods and the ability to handel more stress and bullshit. basically rolled the clock back 10+ years on my body. plan to take it until the 'end'

Another funny thing about "steroids" - as you are saying, i tore a tendon in my forearm. It was injured or probably partially torn from working out and finally I lifted something and felt it pop. I was in the gym at the time and knew a lady there that was the physical therapist for a pro sports team. I had her look at it and she agreed it was torn, nothing to do other than let it heal/rehab it. So me, being the dipshit i am said "ok, so I'll just take it easy on it then" and she kept saying "you have to rehab it" and i kept saying "ok, cool... i'll just take it easy on it then.. thanks" and she kept repeating herself telling me i am going to do more damage if I don't rehab it. I promptly ignored her, even though I knew better and went back to continually aggravating it for 2 years.

Finally, i got serious about trying to rehab it. Started doing exercises for it, stopped lifting, playing racquetball which was agitating it and so on. But by now everything had been irritated and muscle atrophied to the point that I was really starting to get concerned at the continued pain. I was getting to where i couldn't really curl my arm under its own weight.

After fighting this for a while, i went back to what I knew worked...

Started a cycle of Test and Deca-Durabolin and continued to rehab my arm and lift light weights. Within about 6 weeks, my injured arm was doing as well as the other and just as strong after 2 years almost of barely being able to use it.

[dallasnovelty]

I have to use Androgel TRT because the OxyContin/Percocet kills the free T in your body.

[keysync]

So what does it cost?

[Slappin Fish]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

if you've ever read any of these threads in the past, you know that none of them speak from experience or real knowledge on the subject.

I'm in my mid 30's but I have a first hand experience that tells me although it isn't as bad as people use to make it out to be it might not be as innocent as they say now...

Last year I got injured, it was recommended I give it a try to speed up recovery, not bodybuilding cycle dosage, rather high end TRT dosage. On the side of my back I had a really tiny overgrowth (less than a millimeter high), nothing you could see with the naked eye, no one apart from me had ever noticed it, only by running my hand over it could I feel it. Well after 6 weeks on the juice this thing had grown 10 times the size...

No consequences, I got it burned, but it made me think, how about if that tiny overgrowth was on my liver or pancreas? Hadn't changed for 20 years could it do the same to a cluster of dormant malignant cells..

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by Slappin Fish

I'm in my mid 30's but I have a first hand experience that tells me although it isn't as bad as people use to make it out to be it might not be as innocent as they say now...

Last year I got injured, it was recommended I give it a try to speed up recovery, not bodybuilding cycle dosage, rather high end TRT dosage. On the side of my back I had a really tiny overgrowth (less than a millimeter high), nothing you could see with the naked eye, no one apart from me had ever noticed it, only by running my hand over it could I feel it. Well after 6 weeks on the juice this thing had grown 10 times the size...

No consequences, I got it burned, but it made me think, how about if that tiny overgrowth was on my liver or pancreas? Hadn't changed for 20 years could it do the same to a cluster of dormant malignant cells..

"not bodybuilder dosage but high end TRT dosage"?

Not even sure what that means and definitely not sure what "high end.." is supposed to mean.

In supplemental dosages, a person might be injecting say 100mg per week of testosterone cypionate.

As part of a cycle, a body builder might be doing 500-1000mg per week or more.

[Slappin Fish]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

"not bodybuilder dosage but high end TRT dosage"?

Not even sure what that means and definitely not sure what "high end.." is supposed to mean.

In supplemental dosages, a person might be injecting say 100mg per week of testosterone cypionate.

As part of a cycle, a body builder might be doing 500-1000mg per week or more.

It means I wasn't injecting every 3 days. test undec every 2 weeks instead of 4/6 weeks for regular TRT (Nebido)

Anyway, you are already taking this to a confrontational place when there is no need.
Take the story for what it is worth..

[Robbie]

Been doing Test since 1996. Best thing I've ever done.
Hell, I see guys 10 years younger than me that look like they could be my grandfather!

And injecting it Intramuscular is fairly safe and doesn't stress you liver and other organs the way that oral steroids do (which have to be processed by the liver).

Anyway, it can really make a BIG difference in your life. Energy, youthful appearance, hard cock, mental clarity. Just don't overdo it and try to be Mr. Olympia because then it can get dangerous.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by Wilbo

I dunno if it's true or not, but I heard that your body will quit producing testosterone at the levels it is supposed to if you introduce an artificial source. So if you start you have to do it forever. Did you hear this? I'm 51 and would love to build more muscle the easy way.

That is true if you are a younger man. That's why guys under 35 should never use test.

But every year after around age 30 you start losing your natural production and it escalates downward as you age.
I read once that a man who is 60 years old has less natural testosterone production than an 18 year old woman!

So at age 51 you are probably not producing enough testosterone to even register anymore.
You should definitely get on it and stay on it for the rest of your life. It will give you a huge increase in quality of life and how you feel everyday.

[bushwacker]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Been doing Test since 1996. Best thing I've ever done.
Hell, I see guys 10 years younger than me that look like they could be my grandfather!

And injecting it Intramuscular is fairly safe and doesn't stress you liver and other organs the way that oral steroids do (which have to be processed by the liver).

Anyway, it can really make a BIG difference in your life. Energy, youthful appearance, hard cock, mental clarity. Just don't overdo it and try to be Mr. Olympia because then it can get dangerous.

If you don't mind me asking, do you get yours through your doctor, or black market?

[Wilbo]

So how much is it? Legally from a Dr.

[PornoMonster]

Does any Insurance cover this?
What is the Cost on Black Market?
Cost From a Doc?
Cost with insurances?
Sure the answeres will all be different, but just want an IDEA..

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by Slappin Fish

Anyway, you are already taking this to a confrontational place when there is no need.
Take the story for what it is worth..

Not at all,... just struck me as very odd wording and unclear. You were suggesting supplemental levels are dangerous and made an odd comparison to body builders which would be people injecting many times more. It's quite possible that it could affect the growth. Steroids cause cell growth. But that doesn't mean testosterone is dangerous... it means you had a growth that may or may not have grown faster because of the introduction of slight levels of test to your blood. I mean, antibiotics to treat an infection can cause a tumor to grow (common to breast cancer and others) - that doesn't mean antibiotics are dangerous, it means you need to get regular checkups to know if you have cancer or not.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by bushwacker

If you don't mind me asking, do you get yours through your doctor, or black market?

I've always gotten it black market.
Like everything else to do with medicine in the U.S. the prices are jacked up beyond belief when you get it from a doctor.

I have gotten it from a doctor in the past...and a 10 cc vial was $200 and the doctor had to make me get blood test after blood test (because they are scared of getting sued and the way our medical system is set up is a scam to get you to pay for unnecessary tests, but that's a whole other topic)

Meanwhile I can buy it from other countries (where it's perfectly legal to get over the counter) and get 50 cc's (enough for 50 weeks...a year basically) for $400

Then I just see my doctor to get a full physical (including blood work) once a year.
So far so good.

However...having said that, I was talking about it to my doctor a couple of weeks ago. He knows what I do. And he told me that my insurance would cover it if I want to go "legit". So that's an option open to me now.

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by PornoMonster

Does any Insurance cover this?
What is the Cost on Black Market?
Cost From a Doc?
Cost with insurances?
Sure the answeres will all be different, but just want an IDEA..

Cost on black market? for testosterone and something to keep estrogen in check - around $250 or so per month.

Cost of a single 10ml vial of Testosterone Cypionate - usually $75-$100 (assuming you want to use the test and nothing to keep estrogen in check - not recommended)

Full blood tests which you should be doing before you start and every 2-3 months, which your insurance most likely will not cover - $750 or so each time. I don't know what Robbie is talking about $200.00 for bloodwork. Depends on what is being tested. Full blood panels for everything you need to be watching is pretty expensive. Usually the doctor can get a deal and I remember the last people I got a prescription from could get it for $350.00. Without doing it through them, it was closer to $1000.00

Will insurance pay for it?
Not usually. I'm not aware of anyone who's been able to get their insurance to pay for it.

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by Wilbo

How much does it cost?

95-120 for 8-10 week supply + needls etc

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Tical will chime in eventually and he is by far more knowledgeable than me. The long term effects is that you'll be awesome 24/7.

The only real risk with test in supplemental amounts is that when you introduce it into your body, natural production declines (look up "HTPA Axis") and can stop completely (depending on a few factors). The consequence would be to always take testosterone. But when compared to the benefits... if you aren't planning to have more children... then it's a no brainer as far as i'm concerned. It's a common thing in life to have people with pituitary damage (head trauma to that area) or genetic problem and have to take hormones.

A lot of people will chime in as always about the "negatives" and if you've ever read any of these threads in the past, you know that none of them speak from experience or real knowledge on the subject.

sounds good, yes tical helped me figure out how to hook it up

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by bm bradley

95-120 for 8-10 week supply + needls etc

That's not too bad of a price for the U.S.

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Another funny thing about "steroids" - as you are saying, i tore a tendon in my forearm. It was injured or probably partially torn from working out and finally I lifted something and felt it pop. I was in the gym at the time and knew a lady there that was the physical therapist for a pro sports team. I had her look at it and she agreed it was torn, nothing to do other than let it heal/rehab it. So me, being the dipshit i am said "ok, so I'll just take it easy on it then" and she kept saying "you have to rehab it" and i kept saying "ok, cool... i'll just take it easy on it then.. thanks" and she kept repeating herself telling me i am going to do more damage if I don't rehab it. I promptly ignored her, even though I knew better and went back to continually aggravating it for 2 years.

Finally, i got serious about trying to rehab it. Started doing exercises for it, stopped lifting, playing racquetball which was agitating it and so on. But by now everything had been irritated and muscle atrophied to the point that I was really starting to get concerned at the continued pain. I was getting to where i couldn't really curl my arm under its own weight.

After fighting this for a while, i went back to what I knew worked...

Started a cycle of Test and Deca-Durabolin and continued to rehab my arm and lift light weights. Within about 6 weeks, my injured arm was doing as well as the other and just as strong after 2 years almost of barely being able to use it.

yes I've considered deca as well

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by Slappin Fish

I'm in my mid 30's but I have a first hand experience that tells me although it isn't as bad as people use to make it out to be it might not be as innocent as they say now...

Last year I got injured, it was recommended I give it a try to speed up recovery, not bodybuilding cycle dosage, rather high end TRT dosage. On the side of my back I had a really tiny overgrowth (less than a millimeter high), nothing you could see with the naked eye, no one apart from me had ever noticed it, only by running my hand over it could I feel it. Well after 6 weeks on the juice this thing had grown 10 times the size...

No consequences, I got it burned, but it made me think, how about if that tiny overgrowth was on my liver or pancreas? Hadn't changed for 20 years could it do the same to a cluster of dormant malignant cells..

when you're in your mid 50's, and everyday you have to crawl out of bed and struggle to move... then you do TRT and feel great... do you actually give a fuck if you get a tumor in years? would you give up 20 years of feeling great to live another 30 years feeling like shit?

isn't that the real issue?

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by bm bradley

yes I've considered deca as well

Deca is very "aromatizing" and you'll end up having to use other drugs to keep from growing "bitch tits" if you use it at a high level.

If I were you I'd just stick to testosterone.

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

"not bodybuilder dosage but high end TRT dosage"?

Not even sure what that means and definitely not sure what "high end.." is supposed to mean.

In supplemental dosages, a person might be injecting say 100mg per week of testosterone cypionate.

As part of a cycle, a body builder might be doing 500-1000mg per week or more.

doing 200mg of cypionate every 5th day... intramuscular (and I use a 21 because I'm a bad mother fucker, so there )

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by Robbie

That is true if you are a younger man. That's why guys under 35 should never use test.

But every year after around age 30 you start losing your natural production and it escalates downward as you age.
I read once that a man who is 60 years old has less natural testosterone production than an 18 year old woman!

So at age 51 you are probably not producing enough testosterone to even register anymore.
You should definitely get on it and stay on it for the rest of your life. It will give you a huge increase in quality of life and how you feel everyday.

I tested a 48* something or other which I was told is normal production... but normal for what age?

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by PornoMonster

Does any Insurance cover this?
What is the Cost on Black Market?
Cost From a Doc?
Cost with insurances?
Sure the answeres will all be different, but just want an IDEA..

I'm going through a Dr and my ins. not sure on the cost yet. I chose this route because I want to be able to travel with needles and vials etc without getting arrested AND I want to be monitored

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Cost on black market? for testosterone and something to keep estrogen in check - around $250 or so per month.

Cost of a single 10ml vial of Testosterone Cypionate - usually $75-$100 (assuming you want to use the test and nothing to keep estrogen in check - not recommended)

Full blood tests which you should be doing before you start and every 2-3 months, which your insurance most likely will not cover - $750 or so each time. I don't know what Robbie is talking about $200.00 for bloodwork. Depends on what is being tested. Full blood panels for everything you need to be watching is pretty expensive. Usually the doctor can get a deal and I remember the last people I got a prescription from could get it for $350.00. Without doing it through them, it was closer to $1000.00

Will insurance pay for it?
Not usually. I'm not aware of anyone who's been able to get their insurance to pay for it.

what are you using to keep the estrogen in check?

[chaze]

Hell no, steroids are fuckin dangerous. Just make more money or work harder without them.

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by Robbie

That's not too bad of a price for the U.S.

http://www.healthwarehouse.com/testo...10ml-vial.html


what do ya think? the pharmacy is going to to rip me off I think... $150 for a 10ml off the street

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by bm bradley

http://www.healthwarehouse.com/testo...10ml-vial.html


what do ya think? the pharmacy is going to to rip me off I think... $150 for a 10ml off the street

I'm getting it in ampules (1 ml in each ampule) for $6 an ampule "normal" price. But the guy who I buy from is in India and he runs specials every week.

For instance this weeks special is 100 ampules (100 ml) for $400 So that's $4 a ml for sustenon 250mg/ml and it breaks down to this per ampule:
30 mg Testosterone propionate
60 mg Testosterone isocaproate
60 mg Testosterone phenylpropionate
100 mg Testosterone decanoate

That's what I'm using at the moment by the way. One amp per week. 250 mg of test each week. Strong enough dose to keep me hard all over, but not too much to start making me freaky.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by chaze

Hell no, steroids are fuckin dangerous.

Aspirin is dangerous if you take too much of it.

Testosterone is the natural hormone in your body that makes you a man. The average life span for thousands of years was about 32 years old. Now we live a LOT longer...but our bodies stop producing testosterone as we age.

So, as a man you have a choice. Get soft and fat and weak as you get older. Or replace the testosterone that you lost and feel great.

[Profits of Doom]

Originally Posted by Robbie

I'm getting it in ampules (1 ml in each ampule) for $6 an ampule "normal" price. But the guy who I buy from is in India and he runs specials every week.

For instance this weeks special is 100 ampules (100 ml) for $400 So that's $4 a ml for sustenon 250mg/ml and it breaks down to this per ampule:
30 mg Testosterone propionate
60 mg Testosterone isocaproate
60 mg Testosterone phenylpropionate
100 mg Testosterone decanoate

That's what I'm using at the moment by the way. One amp per week. 250 mg of test each week. Strong enough dose to keep me hard all over, but not too much to start making me freaky.

Where do you buy from if you don't mind me asking? Does he have a website?

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Deca is very "aromatizing" and you'll end up having to use other drugs to keep from growing "bitch tits" if you use it at a high level.

If I were you I'd just stick to testosterone.

Less so than testosterone and not in the same way. Gyno basically from deca comes from spike in progestins, not estrogen. It requires a different drug to regulate when on a cycle as well such as bromocriptine, vs arimidex, nolvadex aromasin etc. you would use with test.

Either way, you have to be genetically predisposed to it and taking decent quantities, not simply supplemental amounts ... and as far as i know, there is no greater concern over this risk in either one or the other regardless of quantity of either.

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by bm bradley

http://www.healthwarehouse.com/testo...10ml-vial.html


what do ya think? the pharmacy is going to to rip me off I think... $150 for a 10ml off the street

There is really only a few sources you could trust to order online and you have to remember these people are being arrested constantly across the globe. You can search and you will find the right forums that vouch for certain suppliers. That won't stop packages from getting seized however at the post office. You really need to be super careful of this because counterfeit drugs are everywhere and very very dangerous. Anyone can counterfeit this stuff - on top of that, anyone can make it in their bathroom and many people do and you have to worry about the purity of what you are injecting into your body and know its sterile and free of containments which will cause infections or other health consequences.

If you don't know the manufacturer or someone who knows the manufacturer, then you are taking a huge risk healthwise and its not worth it. Better to just get a prescription.

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

There is really only a few sources you could trust to order online and you have to remember these people are being arrested constantly across the globe. You can search and you will find the right forums that vouch for certain suppliers. That won't stop packages from getting seized however at the post office. You really need to be super careful of this because counterfeit drugs are everywhere and very very dangerous. Anyone can counterfeit this stuff - on top of that, anyone can make it in their bathroom and many people do and you have to worry about the purity of what you are injecting into your body and know its sterile and free of containments which will cause infections or other health consequences.

If you don't know the manufacturer or someone who knows the manufacturer, then you are taking a huge risk healthwise and its not worth it. Better to just get a prescription.

I agree, just found cyp at costco for $53 a 10ml vial so I'm going to call them monday and make sure they can get the stuff...

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by bm bradley

I agree, just found cyp at costco for $53 a 10ml vial so I'm going to call them monday and make sure they can get the stuff...

What you quoted The Squealer as saying is true...BUT, the sources I get mine from are from a list of approved suppliers on a bodybuilding password protected forum that I've been a member of for several years.

And testosterone is pretty much legal and over the counter in almost every country in the world EXCEPT of course here in the "free" United States.

I've even bought it at the airport pharmacy (over the counter) on a trip down to Cancun. (cialis is over the counter there too).

Anyway, my suppliers have a large group of buyers and their reputations are the key to their survival.
And testosterone is so cheap to buy around the world that there just isn't any reason to try and sell fake stuff. It would cost you just as much to sell me a ampule of oil as it does to sell me an amp of test.

Anyway, just wanted to say that in 16 years I've never been ripped off by my overseas sources and I've never had anything seized...nor have any of my friends who use the same folks.

Having said all that...$53 at Costco for 10 ml is a good price. That's $5.30 a ml So it's only a $1.30 more than I'm paying.

Or....you could just drive down to Tijuana, empty and clean a small shampoo bottle. Go to any pharmacy and buy all the testosterone you want over the counter. Put it all in the shampoo bottle. Visit the "donkey show" for fun, then drive back home with your test.

But that might be too much fun (and if I went with you we would definitely get in trouble heh-heh)...so the Costco route sounds pretty good to me.

[dgraves]

Replacing hormones can be tricky and best left in the hands of a doctor that specializes in it. Some Endo's are good but you should also consider a good Anti-Aging doctor. T is covered by BCBS and should only cost you $15/month.

More isn't better when it comes to T, it's about balance. Too much T converts to E2 and even when you take an aromatase inhibitor like Anastrozole to block estrogen, it then converts to DHT.

If there's too much T in your body, it will find a way to get rid of it.

[lacuna]

I've been using Testopel implant therapy for over three years now, and it is probably the best thing I've ever done for myself.

I was diagnosed with low testosterone when I was around 40. I was at the urologist for a routine visit, and was killing time in the waiting room just reading random pamphlets. I was in relatively good physical shape, with a good sex life, but I came across a number of familiar-sounding symptoms: decreased stamina, lack of motivation, wanting to nap after lunch, and so forth... I mentioned it to the doc, and he was skeptical at first (he actually said, "You don't look like you're low on testosterone..."), but he agreed to test my levels. We were both surprised by the results.

We started with the patch, which irritated my skin. Then we tried the gel (which is applied to the shoulder area), but it made me nervous because I have young children and I was worried that they'd end up absorbing the gel off my skin. The remaining option was getting an implant. Best. Idea. Ever.

My urologist inserts six pellets of Testopel under my skin every four months, and the results have been fantastic. I have more energy, both physically and mentally. I've always been in good shape, and I work out regularly... but the testosterone therapy seems to magnify the results. Plus, I have not noticed any adverse side effects whatsoever. My blood pressure is down, and my bloodwork is actually better than it was before I started therapy.

It is expensive. The procedure runs about $1,500 per visit, with bloodwork on top of that. But if you can afford it -- or if you have good insurance -- it is worth every penny.

[alextokyo]

Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

ADG

"That soft-spoken fellow makes a good point"... ahahahaha

That video is fucking hilarious, the guy looks like a cross between Ultimate Warrior and the guy from Die Antwoord.

Post of the week.

[alextokyo]

Originally Posted by bm bradley

it's not the easy way. I have several long standing joint injuries. in fact I was disabled from my previous career. trt allows me almost full range of motion, a great reduction in pain, better moods and the ability to handel more stress and bullshit. basically rolled the clock back 10+ years on my body. plan to take it until the 'end'

Sounds like a 3-4mg dose of Xanax and/or a shitload of very very very very fucking very potent weed.

Seriously, Xanax is the greatest thing to come out of the medical world since Acyclovir. Gertude Ellion is an angel as far as I'm concerned.

Or maybe anesthetics. Yeah, that should cut it.

[d-null]

what about the unsightly back and shoulder zits?