Cutting taxes. So what will be the outcome?

[Paul Markham]

I see so many posts where people think cutting taxes, or cutting Government will re-invigorate the economy. Yet will it?

There are 146,743,000 people in work in the US. Most on an average wage of $26,364. So let's say for a basis everyone gets $100 a month more in their wage packet, because of tax cuts. What will you spend an extra $100 a month on?

Now carry that through to the Government. They will be getting $14,674,300,000 less in tax revenue every month. Where will they get the money to fill the gap or make cuts?

Maybe borrow more. Great your Great Grandchildren will be paying for your $100 extra a month.

Maybe cut funding or Government. That's jobs, so the extra demand that tax cuts are supposed to bring, will not arrive because people who had a job, now don't. And they will need supporting to stop them turning up on your doorstep.

More entrepreneurial businessmen will work harder. Bullshit, take the steak off their dinner table and then they will work harder to get it back on. Need is the greatest inspiration Man has ever had. Would you work harder if you got a $100 pay rise for doing nothing extra. Or work harder if your income dropped $100?

The shit we're in with our economy is largely due to fat cats on a get rich quick train. That hit the buffers. They're still in their mansions in the Hamptons, telling people to cut their tax bills. And so many swallow the illusion.

[onwebcam]

You don't live in the US.. But to answer your question I could do without the entire US government.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by onwebcam

You don't live in the US.. But to answer your question I could do without the entire US government.

You're posting on the Internet. So obviously you can't.

The problem facing the US is the same tat's facing many countries, Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy are extreme examples of too much bloated cash. Being fed into the wrong places. Yet that money was often spent on building, workers and in Greece. This filtered down to the ordinary people. Money filters down.

And that's what's happened in the US. Money the Government spent filtered down to your income. Take it away and you'll lose part of your US generated joins, because people won't have money.

As for doing away with the Government, were you born in a filed delivered by your Mum's sister, housed in that field in a wood log cabin, educated by your Mum, Dad had an arsenal of weapons to keep marauding gangs away and your family grew it's own food 100%.

The world is getting more complicated. It needs more scientist, engineers, superior geeks and all the people to deliver products that we can sell in the future. That needs education, plus the whole infrastructure to keep the wheels turning.

Once people started to collect together in the Stone Age there has been "Government". Because without it, we wouldn't of developed into the society we are today. You probably want Government and what it delivers, just don't want to pay for it.

Before anyone calls me a Communist. They are supreme examples of why too much Government is bad. It should never stifle growth.

[Paul Markham]

Obviously this skit flies over the heads of many.

[onwebcam]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

You're posting on the Internet. So obviously you can't.

The problem facing the US is the same tat's facing many countries, Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy are extreme examples of too much bloated cash. Being fed into the wrong places. Yet that money was often spent on building, workers and in Greece. This filtered down to the ordinary people. Money filters down.

And that's what's happened in the US. Money the Government spent filtered down to your income. Take it away and you'll lose part of your US generated joins, because people won't have money.

As for doing away with the Government, were you born in a filed delivered by your Mum's sister, housed in that field in a wood log cabin, educated by your Mum, Dad had an arsenal of weapons to keep marauding gangs away and your family grew it's own food 100%.

The world is getting more complicated. It needs more scientist, engineers, superior geeks and all the people to deliver products that we can sell in the future. That needs education, plus the whole infrastructure to keep the wheels turning.

Once people started to collect together in the Stone Age there has been "Government". Because without it, we wouldn't of developed into the society we are today. You probably want Government and what it delivers, just don't want to pay for it.

Before anyone calls me a Communist. They are supreme examples of why too much Government is bad. It should never stifle growth.

The federal government doesn't pay for schools, roads, fire dept, medical, or anything but buddy projects in my state or most states for the majority of those essential services. Sure they "give" back money that the people of my state gave to them in the form of "buddy" and "strings attached" projects but other than that, nada. Military? They aren't protecting my interests. They are protecting corporate and political interests that are of no concern to me. The US government is nothing but a group of paranoid schizophrenic control freaks sucking off of me.

[Captain Kawaii]

Ever see the HBO show, Carnivale?

Coming to your town in the US, sometime in 2013/2014.

Thats kinda where its at (According to the guy Shiff who wrote about and accurately predicted 2008). We have politicians and global conglomerates to thank... and ourselves for not getting rid of both when we had the chance.

[DWB]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

I see so many posts where people think cutting taxes, or cutting Government will re-invigorate the economy. Yet will it?

There are 146,743,000 people in work in the US. Most on an average wage of $26,364. So let's say for a basis everyone gets $100 a month more in their wage packet, because of tax cuts. What will you spend an extra $100 a month on?

Now carry that through to the Government. They will be getting $14,674,300,000 less in tax revenue every month. Where will they get the money to fill the gap or make cuts?

Maybe borrow more. Great your Great Grandchildren will be paying for your $100 extra a month.

Maybe cut funding or Government. That's jobs, so the extra demand that tax cuts are supposed to bring, will not arrive because people who had a job, now don't. And they will need supporting to stop them turning up on your doorstep.

More entrepreneurial businessmen will work harder. Bullshit, take the steak off their dinner table and then they will work harder to get it back on. Need is the greatest inspiration Man has ever had. Would you work harder if you got a $100 pay rise for doing nothing extra. Or work harder if your income dropped $100?

The shit we're in with our economy is largely due to fat cats on a get rich quick train. That hit the buffers. They're still in their mansions in the Hamptons, telling people to cut their tax bills. And so many swallow the illusion.

The outcome will be exactly what the outcome has been throughout history.

There is no "recovery." There are a lot of things going on, and a lot of people getting filthy rich, but a recovery is a propaganda pipe dream at this point.

[Barry-xlovecam]

If they are just getting by on a "wage packet" they won't be buying directly from us probably.

But maybe they buy someone's higher on the food chain product/service and that person buys from us.

To a lot of "average wage earners" $100.00 a month is new furniture or part of a new automobile payment -- trickle up tax cuts could result in economic stimulus.

[L-Pink]

I'm waiting for Paul to say running a government is easy.

[TheSquealer]

Solution: Magic Tax Links

[v4 media]

A simplistic view but..

a high % of that $14,674,300,000 gets spent on stuff, businesses get that money and pay tax, employ people.

If that money is banked and not spent, banks make a profit on it by lending it out, they pay tax on that profit.

[MontrealDave]

In the US, give an extra $100 to people who make $26k a year and they will spend it. $100 spent generates sales tax, it generates corporate tax (at least for those corporation who pay it), it generates extra jobs to service the $100 expenditure and will generate extra tax from all that is produced.

On the other hand, I dare anyone in any country to not be able to quickly see many types of government waste! Another problem is that a lot of countries in the western world let their payroll inflate since the global economy was doing good. Now that we are facing a new reality it is going to be very hard for those same government to cut back without facing a backlash and creating more unemployment.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by onwebcam

The federal government doesn't pay for schools, roads, fire dept, medical, or anything but buddy projects in my state or most states for the majority of those essential services. Sure they "give" back money that the people of my state gave to them in the form of "buddy" and "strings attached" projects but other than that, nada. Military? They aren't protecting my interests. They are protecting corporate and political interests that are of no concern to me. The US government is nothing but a group of paranoid schizophrenic control freaks sucking off of me.

It's all taxes.

Think of it like this. Every bullet, missile, tank, plane used in the Iraq and Afghan war had a "Made in the USA" sticker on it. Unless you've shipped that industry to China as well.

Give everyone $100 a month, likely hood is they will buy something with a "Made in China" label. The $100 in taxes went to employ a guy in the US, to spend in his local shops and buy something imported. Cut taxes and he loses a job and the shops lose revenue.

And you lose some of your income.

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

If they are just getting by on a "wage packet" they won't be buying directly from us probably.

But maybe they buy someone's higher on the food chain product/service and that person buys from us.

To a lot of "average wage earners" $100.00 a month is new furniture or part of a new automobile payment -- trickle up tax cuts could result in economic stimulus.

A new piece of imported furniture or car. So where is the economic stimulus of putting people out of work going to come from?

A cut in taxes would lead to a rise in imports. Simplistic view, still just look at where the goods you buy are made to see how simple it is.

$100 a month, I go spending on a couple of new shirts, made in China.

20 people not getting $100 a month, the Government employs someone who buys a couple of shirts made in China.

Get the simplicity?

[Tom_PM]

It's just a simple red herring for the votes. Try not to fall for it too much.
This is how Reagan got elected. Playing "the government IS the enemy" note over and over again.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by PR_Tom

It's just a simple red herring for the votes. Try not to fall for it too much.
This is how Reagan got elected. Playing "the government IS the enemy" note over and over again.

Bush kept his promise and cut taxes, then borrowed the money to fill the gap. Great example of how it stimulated the economy.

[Freaky_Akula]

Originally Posted by L-Pink

I'm waiting for Paul to say running a government is easy.

I am waiting for Paul to forget his GFY password.

[CDSmith]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

The shit we're in with our economy...

Originally Posted by onwebcam

You don't live in the US..

God I love GFY. :D

[Barry-xlovecam]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

A new piece of imported furniture or car. So where is the economic stimulus of putting people out of work going to come from?

The US is still one of the largest producers of motor vehicles in the world.

The majority of fine (not exotic furniture) sold in the US Market is still made here (or in Canada or Mexico NAFTA).

[epitome]

Paul is just trying to protect his interests since its the government that puts food on his table these days.

[papill0n]

fuck you must be lonely

[brandonstills]

Keep in mind that government can only stimulate the economy by removing money from the economy through taxation. The jobs lost from cutting taxation would be replaced by jobs created from people having more money. If the government was 100% efficient and invested tax money wisely in infrastructure that has positive physical ROI then that would be a wise investment. But we all know that the government is highly wasteful because it is not their money they are spending, it is your money. Furthermore, a republic virtually guarantees officials will try to spend your money as much as a possible in order to win the votes of the people and the support of cronies in business. The most obvious solution is not to allow them to take money for general purposes and only for very specific/pre-defined purposes. The founding fathers knew this and this is why they didn't want the Federal government to have the power to spend money on whatever it wanted. That was left up to the states but it has long since been usurped. The basic idea was that different states would have different philosophical opinions on government and you could choose which one you wanted to live under. Alas, that was the idea but it got corrupted over time.

Often times, there is a left vs right approach to politics but they are both idiotic and immoral. Just because someone is against taxation doesn't mean they are pro crony capitalism. I think that point needs to be emphasized. Nobody is debating that there aren't fat cats that leech off the people through their connections in government. The solution is to not allow government to give them money and special favor in the first place. That comes from restricting the power of government, not granting them more control over everything. If you give them more control, they will obviously use it to support their cronies. You may be under the impression it will be for the good of the people but that is not what has historically happened. With greater power comes greater abuse.

[brandonstills]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

It's all taxes.
Give everyone $100 a month, likely hood is they will buy something with a "Made in China" label. The $100 in taxes went to employ a guy in the US, to spend in his local shops and buy something imported. Cut taxes and he loses a job and the shops lose revenue.
?

Quite possibly, but at least they will have something to show for their money. It's better than bank bailout and supporting crony capitalism with that money. ;)

The money is just made up anyway. In terms of physical economy resources are flowing into the US and they are getting our shit dollars. They have to make purchases in the US in order for physical resources to flow out. Physical resources are what are really important. That is a truer measure of wealth. When they do that, it brings dollars back into the country. There are 2 economies, 1 is make believe, one is based on physical resources and labor. You have to factor the 2 together and not simply follow the money alone. That doesn't tell the whole story.

[Ramirez]

don't live in the US

[brandonstills]

Originally Posted by Ramirez

don't live in the US

That's actually not a bad idea. The problem is most of the governments are even worst off than the US though so there aren't really any choices. Are you familiar with the Seasteading Institute? Their philosophy is to allow startup governments so that people can choose the form of government they live under.

[brandonstills]

Originally Posted by JohnnyClips

The government does not stimulate anything LOL They steal half the wealth and cripple the economy

In theory they could though. They have to first understand what a good investment is, and secondly they have to sacrifice getting votes for the good of the country. We all know that won't happen though. Once you factor in human nature and self-interest it falls apart. A system of government needs to factor self-interest into the equation.

[brandonstills]

Originally Posted by JohnnyClips

That's a very flawed statement. The government is made up of people, which always attracts the most ruthless and dishonest people...how does that solve the problem?

That's exactly what I was getting at. I think we are in agreement. My point is that the mechanics of government need to protect against or work in harmony with self-interest. The solution is to either limit their power, or change it so that their self-interest is aligned with the common good. In theory that is what free trade is about. You only get ahead by providing for others. They trade something of less value (for them) for greater value (for them). Otherwise no transaction takes place. When there is taxation and you don't have a choice of where that money goes, you are often times in effect trading greater value for lesser value (or even negative value if they spend it on things you are morally opposed to).

[Paul Markham]

That's a very flawed statement. The government is made up of people, which always attracts the most ruthless and dishonest people...how does that solve the problem?

And where does the incentive come to fund the dishonesty?

Quite possibly, but at least they will have something to show for their money. It's better than bank bailout and supporting crony capitalism with that money. ;)

The money is just made up anyway. In terms of physical economy resources are flowing into the US and they are getting our shit dollars. They have to make purchases in the US in order for physical resources to flow out. Physical resources are what are really important. That is a truer measure of wealth. When they do that, it brings dollars back into the country. There are 2 economies, 1 is make believe, one is based on physical resources and labor. You have to factor the 2 together and not simply follow the money alone. That doesn't tell the whole story.

Yes all the money borrowed flowing into the Western economies. Keep the system working.

All you're saying is give us tax cuts, keep borrowing so you can spend the money yourself and put someone else out of a job.

However this is true.

The jobs lost from cutting taxation would be replaced by jobs created from people having more money.

Jobs in China.

Because the West no longer produces most of the goods we would buy with the extra money. Your economic theory is out of date. It's from the time when Americans bought American manufactured goods. Today they don't, most of the goods you buy are imported.

So let's look at it properly.

$1 billion spent by the Government goes mostly to build something by Americans in America. This money they spend in shops. Mostly on imported goods.

$1 billion spent in shops is spent mostly on imported goods.

All you want to do is remove the Americans relying on Government funding so you can spend the money yourself. You'll run the risk of the drop in the economy and your income.

[onwebcam]

[brandonstills]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

$1 billion spent by the Government goes mostly to build something by Americans in America. This money they spend in shops. Mostly on imported goods.

Bullshit. It goes to corrupt elite in the form of bank bailouts, Haliburton contracts, foreign debt, or to invade some country that isn't giving corporations what they want. And I don't give a rats ass if they export jobs. Nationalism is discriminating against people based on where they were born and live. How is that any different than racism? It's petty and small minded. Why should someone in the US deserve anything more than someone in China? Discrimination is immoral. You're being a Luddite. We have a global economy now. Stop thinking so small trying to be in some kind of protected bubble. You need to accept the entire world as one system. Otherwise it leads to wars. First it was tribe vs tribe and then they decided that was barbaric. Then we had racism?we are still trying to fight that one. Currently we have this idiotic notion of nationalism, which is just tribe vs tribe on a bigger scale.

As far as incentive to fund dishonest? It comes from government officials wanting to be elected because it places them in a place of power. In order to do this, they spend other people's money in an attempt to win votes and support from powerful people/companies.

Giving people a tax break isn't cutting jobs. You're already cutting jobs by taxing in the first place. That money would have been spent back in the economy. When it is taxed, it is wasted and spent in ways that are much less constructive?bank bailouts, debt payments, crony capitalism, military industrial complex, etc.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by brandonstills

Bullshit. It goes to corrupt elite in the form of bank bailouts, Haliburton contracts, foreign debt, or to invade some country that isn't giving corporations what they want.

Stopped reading there as common sense isn't your strong point.

It goes to the corrupt elite. So do away with any chance you have to stop them. You should give a shit about exporting jobs, unless you sell to people in China.