Cleartly the solution to the problem is more guns!

[Rochard]

Outstanding. More dead this morning. More guns must be the solution.

(CNN) -- At least seven people, including a gunman shot by a police officer, have been killed in an attack on worshippers at a Sikh temple in the Milwaukee suburb of Oak Creek, Wisconsin, on Sunday, police said.

The officer was wounded but "returned fire, and that shooter was put down," said Bradley Wentlandt, the police chief in nearby Greenfield, who briefed reporters. Investigators who picked through the building afterward found four bodies inside the temple and two other victims outside, plus the gunman, Wentlandt said.

Though early reports had suggested there may have been more than one attacker, he said officers had not identified any other gunmen.

The wounded officer, a 20-year veteran, was in surgery Sunday afternoon after being shot multiple times, but was expected to survive, Wentlandt said. He was sent to the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin in Oak Creek, south of Milwaukee, after a 911 call about 10:25 a.m. (11:25 a.m. ET).

Carolyn Bellin, a spokeswoman for Milwaukee's Froedtert Hospital, said one of three men brought there from the incident was in surgery early Sunday morning, while another was in the surgical intensive care unit. The third was being evaluated in the emergency room. All three were in critical condition.

The temple has a congregation of 250 to 400, according to its website.

"I just want to say this temple was built a number of years ago and there have never been any problems with this temple," Oak Creek Alderman Dan Jakubczyk said. "They've been a plus to this city and to my district."

[PhoneMoney]

The solution is not more guns.

The solution is not allowing hate to flow through this country. The solution is to stop hiding behind one issue and ignoring the fact that there is something wrong here cause you sleep better at night.

The solution is putting things in place to make this happen. The solution is to stop all of this hate - but you know, hey - why do all that work for social change when you can cunt about guns and oversimplify it.

[Freaky_Akula]

Your solution to the illegal use of guns is less legal guns? By your logic, the solution to crime would be less police.

[Jel]

Originally Posted by Rochard

Outstanding. More dead this morning. More guns must be the solution.

(CNN) -- At least seven people, including a gunman shot by a police officer, have been killed in an attack on worshippers at a Sikh temple in the Milwaukee suburb of Oak Creek, Wisconsin, on Sunday, police said.

The officer was wounded but "returned fire, and that shooter was put down," said Bradley Wentlandt, the police chief in nearby Greenfield, who briefed reporters. Investigators who picked through the building afterward found four bodies inside the temple and two other victims outside, plus the gunman, Wentlandt said.

Though early reports had suggested there may have been more than one attacker, he said officers had not identified any other gunmen.

The wounded officer, a 20-year veteran, was in surgery Sunday afternoon after being shot multiple times, but was expected to survive, Wentlandt said. He was sent to the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin in Oak Creek, south of Milwaukee, after a 911 call about 10:25 a.m. (11:25 a.m. ET).

Carolyn Bellin, a spokeswoman for Milwaukee's Froedtert Hospital, said one of three men brought there from the incident was in surgery early Sunday morning, while another was in the surgical intensive care unit. The third was being evaluated in the emergency room. All three were in critical condition.

The temple has a congregation of 250 to 400, according to its website.

"I just want to say this temple was built a number of years ago and there have never been any problems with this temple," Oak Creek Alderman Dan Jakubczyk said. "They've been a plus to this city and to my district."

Strange how some of those numbers, in a particular mathematical formula, produce another number that is EXACTLY a number very similar to number(s) that are seen in nwo/reptilians/lil wayne's music video. And so soon after the batman shooting too. Coincidence? I think not...

[baddog]

The problem seems to be Sikhs, not guns.

[papill0n]

Originally Posted by baddog

The problem seems to be Sikhs, not guns.

oh for sure man. everytime we here about a gun incident in the states there's a Sikh behind it.

[PhoneMoney]

Originally Posted by baddog

The problem seems to be Sikhs, not guns.

Actually, I have heard two different reports - the last stating that the shooter(s) were white. But nothing is settled yet, a lot of dust in the air.

[BIGTYMER]

We are a barbaric species. Monkeys in clothes.

[Rochard]

Originally Posted by PhoneMoney

The solution is not more guns.

The solution is more guns. Clearly if they were all armed with AR15s this would have ended very differently.

[Freaky_Akula]

Clearly the solution is more government. The government has been doing an incredible job at preventing all those shootings. If we give up even more of our liberties, then we will live in Utopia!

[ThunderBalls]

Originally Posted by baddog

The problem seems to be Sikhs, not guns.

How so? The shooter was a white guy in his 30's, probably fueled by the right wing hate machine.

[Jman]

I am confused here. In America is it "the rightt to bear arms" or "the right to cause arm"???

[Brujah]

Yes, buy more guns and eat mor chikin. When they come to take our guns away, if we have 26 guns instead of 21 it will make all the difference in the world.

[Jman]

Originally Posted by baddog

The problem seems to be Sikhs, not guns.

Care to explain what the Sikhs did to deserve this????

[TheSquealer]

I don't personally care if guns are banned or not. Seems to me there is a larger problem of people in desperate need of psychiatric help that are either not getting it, or not being forced to get it.

......Ooops. I'm sorry. I forget we live in a politically correct world where everyone is inherently good. Can't judge. My bad.

[TheSquealer]

I do think equating guns to violent acts is silly. Crazy people are crazy. Crazy people determined to kill others will do it. It's every bit as easy to make a massively devistating bomb as it is to get a gun and ammo.

[Jel]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

I do think equating guns to violent acts is silly. Crazy people are crazy. Crazy people determined to kill others will do it. It's every bit as easy to make a massively devistating bomb as it is to get a gun and ammo.

[PhoneMoney]

Tried to embed a video - wouldn't let me. boo!

[PhoneMoney]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

I don't personally care if guns are banned or not. Seems to me there is a larger problem of people in desperate need of psychiatric help that are either not getting it, or not being forced to get it.

......Ooops. I'm sorry. I forget we live in a politically correct world where everyone is inherently good. Can't judge. My bad.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=z-B0WCBz2mg

[Matt 26z]

Ban all guns.

Criminals can't afford new guns. They steal their guns. So if you take guns away from law abiding citizens, you are cutting off the source of guns for the criminals.

[v4 media]

He could have waited till they were all inside and poured 5 gallons of gas in the entrance.

Banning guns wont stop nutters.

[helterskelter808]

Meanwhile, in every country that bans guns, no gun massacres occurred. I just can't figure out the solution to this one.

[Rochard]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

I do think equating guns to violent acts is silly. Crazy people are crazy. Crazy people determined to kill others will do it. It's every bit as easy to make a massively devistating bomb as it is to get a gun and ammo.

I know right? Just the other day some nut job with a baseball bat killed seventeen people at the movies. We should ban bats because baseball bat killing it out of control!

[Rochard]

Originally Posted by Matt 26z

Ban all guns.

Criminals can't afford new guns. They steal their guns. So if you take guns away from law abiding citizens, you are cutting off the source of guns for the criminals.

I know, right! All of the law abiding citizens were quick to protect themselves in the movies when that guy with the shotgun and the AR15 opened up on them!

[ClaireMonroe]

I love it when people bring up the "right wing hate machine" when the last few people who shot up crowds were left wing - oh but then you always change your story and call them crazy at that point.

Criminals buy guns illegally. They don't usually steal them because they will get shot doing so. Their main source of buying weapons is from illegal weapons dealers. Outlawing guns has done nothing. Look at San Francisco and Oakland with two of the biggest anti-gun laws around. The crime is horrendous and the only people carrying guns are illegal guns or cops.

[ClaireMonroe]

And actually, there are mass shootings in high crimes in countries where guns are banned. Look at England. I just read an article the other day where rapes, murders, and robberies are up. And what country was it when the crazy guy went out and shot up a bunch of kids recently? Was it Norway? Did their gun laws stop him? No. Mexico has anti-gun laws. They have the worst crime rate ever.

[PornoMonster]

Originally Posted by helterskelter808

meanwhile, in every country that bans guns, no gun massacres occurred. I just can't figure out the solution to this one.

bull shit!

[u-Bob]

Originally Posted by helterskelter808

Meanwhile, in every country that bans guns, no gun massacres occurred..

That's not true.

In this tiny corner of the EU, it's very difficult to get a permit to own a gun. Almost no one owns one. It is impossible to buy things like assault rifles or grenades.

Yet, last year a guy took a bag filled with weapons with him to a square, threw some grenades into a crowd and opened fire with an assault rifle.

Criminals use AKs and explosives to rob armored cars even though explosives are impossible to buy over here. (even the types used for demolition purposes). The criminals import them from certain Eastern European countries (fresh from the government stock piles).

2 years ago a guy painted his face (Joke style) and rode his bicycle to a daycare center with a bag pack full of kitchen knives and a small ax. The guy stabbed and killed several babies and people working there.

I could go on, but the point should be clear. Even if it's illegal to own a weapon, criminals will always find a way to get them or find another way to harm people.

[shinmusashi44]

How much you wanna bet this guy thought these Sikhs were Muslims?

[MrCain]

Originally Posted by baddog

The problem seems to be Sikhs, not guns.

Why are you blaming the victims?

[shinmusashi44]

Originally Posted by ClaireMonroe

I love it when people bring up the "right wing hate machine" when the last few people who shot up crowds were left wing - oh but then you always change your story and call them crazy at that point.

Criminals buy guns illegally. They don't usually steal them because they will get shot doing so. Their main source of buying weapons is from illegal weapons dealers. Outlawing guns has done nothing. Look at San Francisco and Oakland with two of the biggest anti-gun laws around. The crime is horrendous and the only people carrying guns are illegal guns or cops.

9 out of 10 its gonna be the right wing crazies. I've never seen the hate I do except in the far right/conservative side. Abortion clinic bombers, religious nuts, racist people in general, all from the right. I can link you 100s of videos of right wing crazies full of hate.

[DWB]

Every wonder what really goes someone's mind who totally snaps and goes on a shooting spree?

It's one thing to plan it, but to actually go through with it. Just crazy. No one ever gets away with it.

[GregE]

Clearly there's no one size fits all answer to any of this.

Some things strike me as glaringly obvious however.

Regarding guns... I think it's a given that armed homeowners do indeed present a deterrent to residential crime, especially in the area of break-ins, home invasions, burglaries and so on. When those same citizens take their legal guns out into the community, with conceal permits and such, the issue does get a tad more complicated however.

Regarding wack jobs... It really, really needs to be exponentially easier to have them involuntarily committed before they snap. You won't catch all (or even most) of them, but you'll get a hell of a lot of them this way. The Arizona and Colorado shooters come to mind here.

[u-Bob]

Originally Posted by GregE

Regarding wack jobs... It really, really needs to be exponentially easier to have them involuntarily committed before they snap.

Slippery slope. Not so long ago the US government would institutionalize black civil liberty activists and have them declared insane because their stood up up for their rights.

[Freaky_Akula]

Originally Posted by shinmusashi44

9 out of 10 its gonna be the right wing crazies. I've never seen the hate I do except in the far right/conservative side. Abortion clinic bombers, religious nuts, racist people in general, all from the right. I can link you 100s of videos of right wing crazies full of hate.

Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Castro, the Cheka, the Stasi, Ted Kaczynski, the Ethiopian Red Terror,... There is violence on both sides.

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by u-Bob

Slippery slope. Not so long ago the US government would institutionalize black civil liberty activists and have them declared insane because their stood up up for their rights.

You're right. Slippery slope. Like everything. Absolutely everything. The universal argument that applies to anything and everything. Lets use that argument and follow it to its logical conclusion and just make laws themselves illegal!

[u-Bob]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

You're right. Slippery slope. Like everything. Absolutely everything. The universal argument that applies to anything and everything. Lets use that argument and follow it to its logical conclusion and just make laws themselves illegal!

The entire original concept of laws is not about the most efficient way to organize things, but to prevent (and repair) injustice. Murder is an act of injustice, theft is an act of injustice, rape is an act of injustice etc. All those things are 'mala in se'. Merely talking or fantasizing about committing murder or about pulling off a heist or about rape is not an act of injustice. Locking people up when they have not committed an act of injustice but when some psychiatrist believes they might some day commit an act of injustice is an act of injustice in itself.

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by u-Bob

The entire original concept of laws is not about the most efficient way to organize things, but to prevent (and repair) injustice. Murder is an act of injustice, theft is an act of injustice, rape is an act of injustice etc. All those things are 'mala in se'. Merely talking or fantasizing about committing murder or about pulling off a heist or about rape is not an act of injustice. Locking people up when they have not committed an act of injustice but when some psychiatrist believes they might some day commit an act of injustice is an act of injustice in itself.

Thats an interesting interpretation. The purpose of laws are to protect the rights and property of others and to punish those who infringe the rights of others. It's not any more complicated than that.

But I get your point. The guy who totally out of his fucking mind and who is about to walk into a day care and lock the doors and burn the place to the ground while its full of children shouldn't be hindered on his way to do it. It should only become a problem once there is a body count.

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by u-Bob

The entire original concept of laws is not about the most efficient way to organize things, but to prevent (and repair) injustice. Murder is an act of injustice, theft is an act of injustice, rape is an act of injustice etc. All those things are 'mala in se'. Merely talking or fantasizing about committing murder or about pulling off a heist or about rape is not an act of injustice. Locking people up when they have not committed an act of injustice but when some psychiatrist believes they might some day commit an act of injustice is an act of injustice in itself.

thankfully you're not in charge, i'd rather move somewhere else then

[u-Bob]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

The purpose of laws are to protect the rights and property of others and to punish those who infringe the rights of others. It's not any more complicated than that.

That is exactly what I just said.

But I get your point. The guy who totally out of his fucking mind and who is about to walk into a day care and lock the doors and burn the place to the ground while its full of children shouldn't be hindered on his way to do it. It should only become a problem once there is a body count.

No. You can act against him the second he initiates his actions (including when he threatens to do so).

But you can't just lock up people because you consider them "wack jobs".

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by u-Bob

That is exactly what I just said.

"justice" - a subjective idea has little to do with "rights" which are codified in law and are black and white.

No. You can act against him the second he initiates his actions (including when he threatens to do so).

And this is the problem. THe guy who is a paranoid schizophrenic is "free" to roam the streets believing every child is an alien and he needs to kill them all - and NO ONE can really stop him until he starts killing children.

But you can't just lock up people because you consider them "wack jobs".

Yes, you can. Its called the Baker Act. You can be dragged out of your house right now and put in a psychiatric facility for observation should there be sufficient cause to do so. I've actually sent police to someone and had them take that person for observation. Works just fine. That individual ended up getting diagnosed and treated.

It just requires someone that isn't too politically correct and that can not only recognize the problem, but then does something about it. In most cases of these mass murderers, they were already diagnosed... but their "rights" come before those of everyone around them who are the ones who should be protected.

[u-Bob]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

thankfully you're not in charge, i'd rather move somewhere else then

I'd never want to be "in charge". Every human is free to do whatever he wants with his own body and his property as long as he does not cause damage to another human or that human's property.

I deal with others based on voluntary exchange.

[GregE]

Originally Posted by u-Bob

The entire original concept of laws is not about the most efficient way to organize things, but to prevent (and repair) injustice. Murder is an act of injustice, theft is an act of injustice, rape is an act of injustice etc. All those things are 'mala in se'. Merely talking or fantasizing about committing murder or about pulling off a heist or about rape is not an act of injustice. Locking people up when they have not committed an act of injustice but when some psychiatrist believes they might some day commit an act of injustice is an act of injustice in itself.

Writing truly good law has to be one of the trickiest acts ever to pull off.

Most anyone can intuitively tell the difference between someone who says off the wall shit just to get a reaction or because he's pissed off or he's drunk or some such and those with loose screws.

Legislating preventive measures that preclude abuse on the part of the state is another matter all together.

[u-Bob]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

"justice" - a subjective idea has little to do with "rights" which are codified in law and are black and white.

Something does not "become a right" because it's "codified in law". The whole purpose of codifying things is to protect the rights people already have. The US was founded on that principle. Read the Declaration of Independence.

And as Bastiat wrote in "The law", justice is the absence of injustice. An act of injustice is committed when someone violates someone else's rights. Murder is an act of injustice because it's a violation of that individual's (property) rights (See self ownership.). Theft is an act of injustice because it's a violation of an individual's (property) rights. Fraud is an act of injustice because it's a violation of an individual's (property) rights (Fraud is essentially "theft by trick" as it was originally called). etc

[Jel]

Originally Posted by u-Bob

I'd never want to be "in charge". Every human is free to do whatever he wants with his own body and his property as long as he does not cause damage to another human or that human's property.

I deal with others based on voluntary exchange.

Fucking nice post

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by u-Bob

I'd never want to be "in charge". Every human is free to do whatever he wants with his own body and his property as long as he does not cause damage to another human or that human's property.

That may be how you wish things were, but that's not the reality. You are not free to do what you want with your own property. You can't make your rifle full auto. You can't shoot heroin into your arm. You can't legally shoot yourself in the head. You can't add onto your own home on your own property without getting all kinds of permits, abiding by 1000s of rules and regulations, being subject to all kinds of inspections etc etc etc.

Virtually every aspect of your life is regulated by the laws.

[tony286]

Originally Posted by Freaky_Akula

Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Castro, the Cheka, the Stasi, Ted Kaczynski, the Ethiopian Red Terror,... There is violence on both sides.

Sorry none of these are liberals lol.

[u-Bob]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

That may be how you wish things were, but that's not the reality. You are not free to do what you want with your own property. You can't make your rifle full auto. You can't shoot heroin into your arm. You can't legally shoot yourself in the head. You can't add onto your own home on your own property without getting all kinds of permits, abiding by 1000s of rules and regulations, being subject to all kinds of inspections etc etc etc.

Virtually every aspect of your life is regulated by the laws.

It's true that the government interferes with almost every aspect of our lives, but that does not make it right. "Might does not make right". It's true that politicians makes tons of laws and regulations (sometimes with good intentions, sometimes with less than honorable intentions), but that does not mean enforcing those laws and regulations is the same as preventing injustice. In some states and countries, people of the same sex are not allowed to voluntarily have sex with each other. Is that 'right' because it's 'a law'?

There's justice and then there's what the government does. Originally most governments were set up to prevent injustice, but that does not guarantee that everything they do serves that purpose.

Ultimately, governments are made up out of people. And people aren't perfect. People don't always act with good intentions and they can never act with perfect knowledge of what the consequences of their actions will be.

I understand that when terrible things happen (like the recent shootings), people look for a way to prevent those things from happening again. But like Gandhi said "if the means are imperfect, the result will also be imperfect". When people ask for more laws and regulations, they should be aware of that fact.

[Freaky_Akula]

Originally Posted by u-Bob

I'd never want to be "in charge". Every human is free to do whatever he wants with his own body and his property as long as he does not cause damage to another human or that human's property.

Respect!

[Jman]

People do the killing and there is a lot of crazy people out there. Hence why I love being in Canada... For a crazy person to get any semi automatic or automatic weapon, it is wayyyyyy harder here then in the US of A. I am sure if it was as easy, we'd have more horror stories here then we have now.