Settle a debate on a question.

[kane]

Yesterday there was a story about the Wonderlic test on CNN.com. This is the timed logic test that all the players entering the NFL draft take. They had a 15 question sample test you could take. Three of my friends and I took it to see how we did.

I missed three questions. One I did the math wrong, one I misread the question and on one I still think I am correct and the test is wrong. The debate has raged so here is the question. You decide if I am right or wrong.

Q. If the first two statements below are true then the third statement is:
1. TRUE
2. FALSE
3. UNCERTAIN

Statement #1: The boy plays baseball.
Statement #2: All baseball players wear hats.
Statement #3: The boy wears a hat.

I answered 2. UNCERTAIN. The answer key says the correct answer is actually 1. TRUE.

My logic is that we do not have enough information to answer true or false. The boy plays baseball, but does that make the boy a baseball player? There is no hard and fast definition of what a baseball player is. If you consider anyone who ever takes part in any baseball game even if it is just a few friends messing around in their back yard a baseball player then the answer is true. But if you define a baseball player as someone who plays in an organized game or plays at a certain skill level, he may not be baseball player.

My example was that I could take a tennis racket to a court and hit a few balls around, but that does not - in my eyes - make me a tennis player.

What do you think?

[mineistaken]

TRUE

If he PLAYS baseball then he is a baseball PLAYER.

You went too far into semantics.

[mineistaken]

Originally Posted by kane

My example was that I could take a tennis racket to a court and hit a few balls around, but that does not - in my eyes - make me a tennis player.

At least at that time when you hit those balls you are a player, because you play.

Take another example - driver. If you drive a car you are a driver. You do not need to be professional driver to be called a driver.

Or better example - monopoly player. You may be the first time player but if you sit at the table playing monopoly you are monopoly player.
Somebody: Players, roll the dice!
You: Hey, I am not a player, I just play.
NO. You are a player
Same with baseball. You went the wrong route just because you are used to use "baseball player" term when speaking about pros etc. But like you see from monopoly example - you are 100% a player if you play.

[Bman]

yeah its true.
logic question.

[rogueteens]

Does that make you thicker than someone who bashes his bonce for a living?

[baddog]

Kane is pulling a Rochard/SleazyDream and is just trolling us.

Needs works. ;)

[nexcom28]

I agree, if he is appying to NFL that that fact is correct

[Mutt]

I'd score the highest Wonderlic score in the history of the NFL Combine. Unfortunately I can only throw a football 30 yards and I couldn't see over my offensive line.

[ottopottomouse]

Is this a test for 9 year olds?

[kane]

Originally Posted by mineistaken

At least at that time when you hit those balls you are a player, because you play.

Take another example - driver. If you drive a car you are a driver. You do not need to be professional driver to be called a driver.

Or better example - monopoly player. You may be the first time player but if you sit at the table playing monopoly you are monopoly player.
Somebody: Players, roll the dice!
You: Hey, I am not a player, I just play.
NO. You are a player
Same with baseball. You went the wrong route just because you are used to use "baseball player" term when speaking about pros etc. But like you see from monopoly example - you are 100% a player if you play.

This is likely my downfall. I always associate "player" in terms of sports as someone who does it with at least some level of skill not just anyone who plays the game, but you and others here have made some good arguments. I will have to give up my battle and admit my defeat. LOL

[purecane]

It also doesn't specify if he is playing baseball NOW. Maybe he is done for the day, maybe he is a sore loser and threw his hat at the umpire. Or maybe he is wearing a catchers mask???? Just an observation.

[kane]

Originally Posted by ottopottomouse

Is this a test for 9 year olds?

Of the questions I answered a lot of them read like grade school quiz questions. For example one questions was: A pad of paper costs 21 cents. How much does four pads of paper cost?

Another showed five shapes. Four of them were squares of different size and style and one was a hexagon and you had to select the one that was least like the others.

The one I screwed up the math on was a word math question: A document has 48,000 words. The printer needs to use two different type sizes when printing it and make the document 21 pages long. The larger print size can fit 1,800 words on the page and the smaller print size can fit 2,400 words on the page. How many pages will need to be in the small print for the document to be 21 pages?

[mineistaken]

Originally Posted by purecane73

It also doesn't specify if he is playing baseball NOW.

Imho specifies:
"They boy PLAYS baseball"
"The boy WEARS a hat"

[Relentless]

...and that's why there has never been a multiple choice exam capable of testing anything effectively. Essay exams also fail to test actual knowledge... instead they test part of what you know and part of how well you can write.

People desperately want to replace the need for actually interviewing people or getting involved with apprenticeship programs. They would be much better off embracing those activities and doing away with standardized testing entirely.

Any team with a good scouting department has already spoken with the coaches, assistant coaches, high school coaches, parents, reporters, school administrators and researched every scrap of information about a player. Then they see them at the Senior bowl, interview them at the combine... if they give the Wonderlic Test more than a .001% value in their player evaluations they are flat out retarded. The test was first included by Landry back in the day when teams couldn't scout effectively. Those days are over.

[mineistaken]

Originally Posted by Relentless

if they give the Wonderlic Test more than a .001% value in their player evaluations they are flat out retarded.

I would assume its just some kind of formality to check if the player is not retarded.

[_Richard_]

answer is true.. first stated boy was baseball player

you over thought it i think

[kane]

Originally Posted by Relentless

...and that's why there has never been a multiple choice exam capable of testing anything effectively. Essay exams also fail to test actual knowledge... instead they test part of what you know and part of how well you can write.

People desperately want to replace the need for actually interviewing people or getting involved with apprenticeship programs. They would be much better off embracing those activities and doing away with standardized testing entirely.

Any team with a good scouting department has already spoken with the coaches, assistant coaches, high school coaches, parents, reporters, school administrators and researched every scrap of information about a player. Then they see them at the Senior bowl, interview them at the combine... if they give the Wonderlic Test more than a .001% value in their player evaluations they are flat out retarded. The test was first included by Landry back in the day when teams couldn't scout effectively. Those days are over.

While I don't think it has anything to do with a person's physical ability to play football, I do think it can give you some indication about their potential ability to learn plays and pick up game to game changes and even half to half adjustments. There are, of course, cases like Frank Gore who scored one of the lowest scores of all time with a 6 having a successful career and guys that score high not having big careers, but when you look at many of the guys who play the harder, more skilled positions, most of them scored pretty well. There is a lot of memorization in the game and they are constantly changing things up. If you aren't smart enough to pick that up it could hurt your ability to perform.

[lagcam]

All that this thread needs to be completed is for Kane to look at the camera and say "My name is Kane, and I may be [insert something here] but I am not smarter than a football player"

[kane]

Originally Posted by lagcam

All that this thread needs to be completed is for Kane to look at the camera and say "My name is Kane, and I may be [insert something here] but I am not smarter than a football player"

Sadly, it appears I am smarter than Frank Gore, but no Ryan Fitzpatrick. LOL!

[baddog]

And that is why they call it a logic test.

[Relentless]

Originally Posted by kane

While I don't think it has anything to do with a person's physical ability to play football, I do think it can give you some indication about their potential ability to learn plays and pick up game to game changes and even half to half adjustments. There are, of course, cases like Frank Gore who scored one of the lowest scores of all time with a 6 having a successful career and guys that score high not having big careers, but when you look at many of the guys who play the harder, more skilled positions, most of them scored pretty well. There is a lot of memorization in the game and they are constantly changing things up. If you aren't smart enough to pick that up it could hurt your ability to perform.

There is not a single thing the Wonderlic test can tell you about a player that a 20 minute conversation with that player and a few hours of background work won't tell you.

During an interview, hand him a phone book and ask him to find a particular name with the fewest page turns. Ask him to tell you how to tie shoelaces with very specific step by step instructions. See what kind of answers you get. In 20 minutes you will know if he is retarded, if he can express himself logically, if he can think in an orderly manner, etc... And there will never be any confusion about 'what does shoelaces mean.'

Diagram plays on the board and have him explain the responsibilities of his position in each formation. Give him game situations and ask him when a time out should be taken. These are the things that matter and evaluating his responses to them is much more accurate than trying to apply a fictitious wonderlic score to his football IQ.

[Rochard]

If the boy is playing baseball he is in fact a baseball player, and all baseball players wear hats....

Originally Posted by baddog

Kane is pulling a Rochard/SleazyDream and is just trolling us.

Needs works. ;)

Hey, that was just once to prove a point.

[ottopottomouse]

Originally Posted by kane

Of the questions I answered a lot of them read like grade school quiz questions. For example one questions was: A pad of paper costs 21 cents. How much does four pads of paper cost?

Another showed five shapes. Four of them were squares of different size and style and one was a hexagon and you had to select the one that was least like the others.

The one I screwed up the math on was a word math question: A document has 48,000 words. The printer needs to use two different type sizes when printing it and make the document 21 pages long. The larger print size can fit 1,800 words on the page and the smaller print size can fit 2,400 words on the page. How many pages will need to be in the small print for the document to be 21 pages?

48000 = 2400 x 20
1800 is ¾ of 2400
so 4 pages of 1800 replacing 3 of 2400 still gives 48000
17 pages of small + 4 pages of big