Where Is Snowden?.. - Page 3 - GoFuckYourself.com

MaDalton · 06-25-2013, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

well, it appears that none of y'all who say snowden should get a medal can answer my question of why he should get a medal.

so i'll ask it another way-

what medal should snowden be awarded and from which country?

are you saying that the country he traited against should award him a medal for treason?

how would that work?

again, serious questions.

sorry, sometimes i do have to sleep ;)

thats why:

when it comes to the theking/pathfinder theory of breaking an oath is more severe than breaking a law: Von Stauffenberg and his people broke their oath when they tried to blow Hitler up. Millions of soldiers excused themselves for their horrible war crimes because the they were just following orders and/or their oath to follow Hitler to whatever end. Fuck that.

We - the "civilized" western world - generally agree to basic human rights but allow to have them violated by the people we voted for and that we pay from our money every day.

DWB · 06-25-2013, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaDalton

you guys are hilarious btw... the Russians are laughing their asses off and have absolutely no intention to do any harm to him. Just watch RT

they will question him and then help him to get to whatever country that will give him asylum.

The US has given several Russians political asylum that the Russian government demanded to be extradited - now they will return the "favor"

Most Americans have a distorted view of the world and reality. You can't fault them though, most of them have never been across their own border and are fed non-stop propaganda from birth, which they believe to be absolute truth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdultKing

Snowden, Assange, Manning are all heroes. Shining lights bringing out the truth.

They are real heroes. Statues, streets, schools, and libraries should be built and named for these guys and others like them who will come later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by globofun

I would chose Cuba....for the beaches!

Me too. I could spend the rest of my days there, no problem. If they had their internet together and would let me stay long term, I'd probably be there already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Obenberger

Guessing that the whole Ecuador thing is false bait. Probably misdirection. But not a bad country in which to live a very rich life.

The Russians have made their point, Putin is enjoying a laugh, and now, I think, they want him out of their hair. The problem is negotiating a final destination. It's looking like the Wikileaks people have developed some real sophistication at international diplomacy, and it looks from here that they are driving events.

Venezuela, Iceland, Switzerland.

The US government now seems so furious as to verge on being out of control on the issue of this man. The language they are using - concerning a man under federal indictment and supposedly in line to have a trial some day - is simply unprecedented. President Obama didn't hesitate to address it in his press conferences - the tradition, even with Nixon, was not to comment on pending criminal cases. (That seems to have gone out the window about the time that the Patriot Act became law.) They thought it was all figured out, to nail him in the wee hours of Sunday, but he'd been tipped off and flew the coop. They simply aren't used to this and they aren't used to being made to look like fools for all the world to see. There may be some desperate missteps, but one thing seems certain - that Mr. Snowden has sharply reduced the risk that he will be assassinated - he's just too high visibility for that now. Seldom in history does so much hinge on just one man.

Meanwhile, what's going on with Bradley Manning's court martial? My hunch is that what the government did to Manning is an important part of the backstory on Snowden's actions. You will recall that some of the charges against Manning were dismissed by a courageous military judge because of improper "command influence" - namely, the President commenting on this trial. That's entirely unprecedented in US military history - you will recall I served in the JAG Corps for four years.

The whole thing really is spinning out of the power of the administration to control. The usual media partners are not enough to contain the story and assassinate Snowden's character, and now they appear to be trying too hard; the criticism has become vitriolic. The expected casualty of all of this is most likely big chunks of the Patriot Act itself. I won't mourn for it!

Excellent post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theking

Snowden and Manning broke their sworn oaths...which does not make them heroes...but does...at the least...make them criminals and at the worse make them traitors.

Sometimes laws and oaths need to be broken when it is the right thing to do. Taking an oath should not shield those who are harming others.

If you took an oath and you knew of someone you had sworn to protect was raping little kids, would you spill the beans and break your ridiculous oath or just let them keep raping the kids? Actually, don't answer that becuase we both know you would allow the kids to continue being raped, as your holy oath would be more important than doing the right thing.

And in the case of the military, that oath is to protect from enemies foreign AND domestic. In this case, the enemy is clearly domestic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theking

I am not saying that Snowden and Manning simply broke the law...they broke a "sworn oath" which is more than breaking a mere law.

Doing the right thing supersedes all laws and oaths, even if it means harsh consequences. A real hero understands this. Cowards, slaves, sheep, and propagandized people do not.

However, what you think does not matter. History will remember these men as heroes. Currently, the rest of the world also sees these men as heroes and applaud their efforts. The rest of the world is laughing in the face of people like you. That is why Snowden can fly around and not be arrested, because no one wants to help the USA because they ALL know the USA did wrong, again. The truth hurts, I know, but look to the actions of the world to see the true reality of what is really happening. The entire world disagrees with you and your kind.

MaDalton · 06-25-2013, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWB

However, what you think does not matter. History will remember these men as heroes. Currently, the rest of the world also sees these men as heroes and applaud their efforts. The rest of the world is laughing in the face of people like you. That is why Snowden can fly around and not be arrested, because no one wants to help the USA because they ALL know the USA did wrong, again. The truth hurts, I know, but look to the actions of the world to see the true reality of what is really happening. The entire world disagrees with you and your kind.

see my analogy to Stauffenberg - for about 20-30 years after the war they were still seen as traitors and their families and children were spit at. Now they name schools and streets after him and make movies about him.

DWB · 06-25-2013, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaDalton

when it comes to the theking/pathfinder theory of breaking an oath is more severe than breaking a law: Von Stauffenberg and his people broke their oath when they tried to blow Hitler up. Millions of soldiers excused themselves for their horrible war crimes because the they were just following orders and/or their oath to follow Hitler to whatever end. Fuck that.

We - the "civilized" western world - generally agree to basic human rights but allow to have them violated by the people we voted for and that we pay from our money every day.

Guys like pathfinder have been propagandized to the point of no return and will hold their flag above human rights. Too many military guys are unfortunately like that.

"I'm just following orders."
"I'm just doing my job."
"I don't care about less privacy because I don't have anything to hide."

And so on and so forth. It's a broken record story with these guys. It's sad really.

dyna mo · 06-25-2013, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.K

Give him the Nobel Peace Prize - along with Assange and Manning

i don't see what he has done that fits into the requirements for a nobel peace prize.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaDalton

sorry, sometimes i do have to sleep ;)

thats why:

We - the "civilized" western world - generally agree to basic human rights but allow to have them violated by the people we voted for and that we pay from our money every day.

what human rights violation(s) has he exposed? i went to that amnesty page and nothing was listed. as it stands right now, it's not clear if he revealed anything against the law.

i really don't get that people want the usa to all the sudden act different than every other developed nation.

nations have secrets. the usa didn't invent that game.

DWB · 06-25-2013, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

i don't see what he has done that fits into the requirements for a nobel peace prize.

You mean like how they gave it to Obama?

Rochard · 06-25-2013, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaDalton

when it comes to the theking/pathfinder theory of breaking an oath is more severe than breaking a law: Von Stauffenberg and his people broke their oath when they tried to blow Hitler up. Millions of soldiers excused themselves for their horrible war crimes because the they were just following orders and/or their oath to follow Hitler to whatever end. Fuck that.

We - the "civilized" western world - generally agree to basic human rights but allow to have them violated by the people we voted for and that we pay from our money every day.

But there is a massive fucking difference here. With Hitler, they were attempting to remove a government that was killing tens of millions of people. Snowden is disclosing classified information and exposing our intelligence gathering methods and three weeks in has yet to prove anyone at the NSA or any other agency has broken the law.

just a punk · 06-25-2013, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

i don't see what he has done that fits into the requirements for a nobel peace prize.

Course he did nothing for getting a Nobel peace prize comparing to say... Barack Obama.

All1 · 06-25-2013, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theking

It is not.

maturation

? n
1. the process of maturing or ripening

maturity

noun
1.
the state of being mature; ripeness:

Levels and states...

Rochard · 06-25-2013, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

i don't see what he has done that fits into the requirements for a nobel peace prize.

what human rights violation(s) has he exposed? i went to that amnesty page and nothing was listed. as it stands right now, it's not clear if he revealed anything against the law.

i really don't get that people want the usa to all the sudden act different than every other developed nation.

nations have secrets. the usa didn't invent that game.

This is my problem with him. Three weeks he's had the world stage and the loudest platform in the world, and he hasn't showed anyone how anyone has broken the law.

MaDalton · 06-25-2013, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

i don't see what he has done that fits into the requirements for a nobel peace prize.

what human rights violation(s) has he exposed? i went to that amnesty page and nothing was listed. as it stands right now, it's not clear if he revealed anything against the law.

i really don't get that people want the usa to all the sudden act different than every other developed nation.

nations have secrets. the usa didn't invent that game.

i am not saying the US should be special, i would say the same if he was german, english, russian, chinese, iranian or whatever.

i welcome everyone that exposes what our governments do behind our backs to us.

and with that i dont mean crazy conspiracy nuts - i mean people that deliver cold hard proof

just a punk · 06-25-2013, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rochard

But there is a massive fucking difference here. With Hitler, they were attempting to remove a government that was killing tens of millions of people. Snowden is disclosing classified information and exposing our intelligence gathering methods and three weeks in has yet to prove anyone at the NSA or any other agency has broken the law.

Man, how could you be such a brainwashed person? Do they fed you a poisoned water or what? The things you say are out of the edge. You speak like a robot repeating the same bullshit about just everything your country related too. I do remember that insanity you told about how the USA "won the space race" and now this... Are you ok, man? Huh

dyna mo · 06-25-2013, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWB

You mean like how they gave it to Obama?

what does that have to do with it at all?

at least obama, as president, can fit his actions into the requirements for a nobel peace prize which are:

Since 1901, it has been awarded annually (with some exceptions) to those who have "done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses."[1]

nothing snowden has done even remotely fits into that requirement.

MaDalton · 06-25-2013, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rochard

This is my problem with him. Three weeks he's had the world stage and the loudest platform in the world, and he hasn't showed anyone how anyone has broken the law.

i have not agreed that my data gets read by your government - or the UK government. they would need to have a case against me and a judge needs to agree in my specific case. and there better be evidence that supports that decision

Choopa_Pardo · 06-25-2013, 07:54 AM

I don't know where he is now, but I am willing to wager his final destination will be GITMO or a CIA Black Site somewhere in eastern europe.

CaptainHowdy · 06-25-2013, 07:58 AM

dyna mo · 06-25-2013, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaDalton

i am not saying the US should be special, i would say the same if he was german, english, russian, chinese, iranian or whatever.

i welcome everyone that exposes what our governments do behind our backs to us.

and with that i dont mean crazy conspiracy nuts - i mean people that deliver cold hard proof

i hear ya, i want the program scaled back and i am appreciative of being made more aware of it.

but again, we didn't invent the game of international intrigue.

i don't see how we would even begin to honor leakers like snowden in current conditions.

crockett · 06-25-2013, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rochard

This is my problem with him. Three weeks he's had the world stage and the loudest platform in the world, and he hasn't showed anyone how anyone has broken the law.

The key point here is that they shouldn't have this power and having it exposed, shows just how far and extreme the patriot act has been taken.

He did the right thing. It's our govt that is out of line. Having secrets is fine but abusing a already abusive law is wrong.

Socks · 06-25-2013, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rochard

This is my problem with him. Three weeks he's had the world stage and the loudest platform in the world, and he hasn't showed anyone how anyone has broken the law.

What things in life do you contend are more important than laws?

baddog · 06-25-2013, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoshGirls Josh

thats fine. i was simply making a point that people violate laws as a form of revolt against said laws. many people think federal drug laws are unjust, & violate them as a matter of protest.

do i think snowden = thomas paine? not exactly. snowden is exposing a surveillence program while paine is protesting tyranny. However a secret surveillence program certainly can be used to conduct a tyranny, depending on whos running it. & in our political system, those leaders are constantly in flux & you never know when the wrong man gets power.

And those people have been willing to go to prison or die for their belief in change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

well, it appears that none of y'all who say snowden should get a medal can answer my question of why he should get a medal.

so i'll ask it another way-

what medal should snowden be awarded and from which country?

Quote:

Originally Posted by crockett

A lot of people have broken the law to protect our rights. It's one of the ways citizens can push back against unjust actions of a rogue govt.

They did not change anything simply by breaking the law.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.K

Give him the Nobel Peace Prize - along with Assange and Manning

Obama Called ?Hypocrite Of The Century? In Irish Parliament

Not sure how you feel Assange, Manning or Snowden qualify. Please feel free to elaborate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaDalton

sorry, sometimes i do have to sleep ;)

thats why:

Are you suggesting that wiretaps are human rights violations?

directfiesta · 06-25-2013, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Leaks by Snowden revealed that the US had hacked Hong Kong and Chinese institutions.

Snowden also provided documents to the Guardian newspaper that showed British spies were obtaining the contents of 600 million private communications a day by tapping the world's network of fibre-optic cables. They also passed the information to their US counterparts.

The intercepts include emails, telephone calls, Google searches and Facebook updates.

directfiesta · 06-25-2013, 08:42 AM

Snowden 'is in Moscow airport transit zone'
Russian President Vladimir Putin says US whistleblower was still at Moscow airport, and was free to leave.

dyna mo · 06-25-2013, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by directfiesta

go on...........your naivete is precious!

Quote:

To steal the designs for America's advanced weapons systems, as Chinese hackers are alleged to have done by in a confidential report prepared for the Pentagon, you don't necessarily have to break into classified Department of Defense systems.

Play VIDEO
China eyed in U.S. weapons systems hack
Many of America's military secrets can be stolen by exploiting the networks over which unclassified information is shared by military contractors and subcontractors. While these contractors, like the government, have improved their cyber-security over the past decade, many still do not have systems in place to quickly discover whether a hacker in Beijing, or elsewhere, is harvesting information off the computer of a staffer in Virginia, according to cyber-security experts interviewed for this story.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...l-u.s-secrets/

directfiesta · 06-25-2013, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

go on...........your naivete is precious!

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...l-u.s-secrets/

Talking about naive...

Quote:

...alleged to have done by in a confidential report prepared for the Pentagon

from your own quote ... after all, we know how accurate intel is from those agencies/dept ....

TheSquealer · 06-25-2013, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

i hear ya, i want the program scaled back and i am appreciative of being made more aware of it.

but again, we didn't invent the game of international intrigue.

i don't see how we would even begin to honor leakers like snowden in current conditions.

Everyone's reaction falls in line with their pre-existing opinions on government. The fact of the matter is that no one has shown anything illegally done. Just things people don't agree with and 99.9% of that is blown out of proportion because people don't understand all the details.

Its not much different to me than watching people support the PirateBay owners.

Notice no one wants to talk about the laws, what laws needs to be changed and has a clear idea of what needs to happen specifically to change current legislation. Thats how you know the reaction is emotional and not one of reason and logic. It's also how you know it will never change. Crying and whining isn't an effective rallying call to affect change.

... i mean... "I blame bush. That asshole. Fucking Patriot Act. Republican asshole dickheads"

_Richard_ · 06-25-2013, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Obenberger

Guessing that the whole Ecuador thing is false bait. Probably misdirection. But not a bad country in which to live a very rich life.

The Russians have made their point, Putin is enjoying a laugh, and now, I think, they want him out of their hair. The problem is negotiating a final destination. It's looking like the Wikileaks people have developed some real sophistication at international diplomacy, and it looks from here that they are driving events.

Venezuela, Iceland, Switzerland.

The US government now seems so furious as to verge on being out of control on the issue of this man. The language they are using - concerning a man under federal indictment and supposedly in line to have a trial some day - is simply unprecedented. President Obama didn't hesitate to address it in his press conferences - the tradition, even with Nixon, was not to comment on pending criminal cases. (That seems to have gone out the window about the time that the Patriot Act became law.) They thought it was all figured out, to nail him in the wee hours of Sunday, but he'd been tipped off and flew the coop. They simply aren't used to this and they aren't used to being made to look like fools for all the world to see. There may be some desperate missteps, but one thing seems certain - that Mr. Snowden has sharply reduced the risk that he will be assassinated - he's just too high visibility for that now. Seldom in history does so much hinge on just one man.

Meanwhile, what's going on with Bradley Manning's court martial? My hunch is that what the government did to Manning is an important part of the backstory on Snowden's actions. You will recall that some of the charges against Manning were dismissed by a courageous military judge because of improper "command influence" - namely, the President commenting on this trial. That's entirely unprecedented in US military history - you will recall I served in the JAG Corps for four years.

The whole thing really is spinning out of the power of the administration to control. The usual media partners are not enough to contain the story and assassinate Snowden's character, and now they appear to be trying too hard; the criticism has become vitriolic. The expected casualty of all of this is most likely big chunks of the Patriot Act itself. I won't mourn for it!

the problem is Hastings.

i think we have the 'real powers' getting slapped around badly and why we're seeing 'unprecedented behaviours'

The way everything is progressing, we'll have a 'delidding' event shortly

dyna mo · 06-25-2013, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by directfiesta

Talking about naive...

from your own quote ... after all, we know how accurate intel is from those agencies/dept ....

umm, retard, the news report must include the word alleged. they are not the jury.

but thanks for reconfirming your lack of comprehension of complex topics.

_Richard_ · 06-25-2013, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoshGirls Josh

sorry. i did not make it clear enough.

snowden is considered a hero for breaking laws he considers illegal. AKA breaking his oath to expose a surveillence program he considers illegal.

if one thinks his actions were the right thing, for exposing abuse of power, he is a hero. if you think his oath is protecting legitimate conduct, you think he is a traitor.

the american colonists were british citizens before 1776, & broke british laws they deemed to be illegal. The boston tea party was a rejection of the stamp act. this is a well known example of this revolt against a british law.

you are saying snowden broke the law. but you say nothing as to whether he was doing the right thing. By analogy, this suggests you find the propriety of a law irrelevant, & by that logic, our founding fathers are criminals for breaking british law.

basically what im saying is you are benedict arnold & you dont even know it.

dyna mo · 06-25-2013, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Everyone's reaction falls in line with their pre-existing opinions on government. The fact of the matter is that no one has shown anything illegally done. Just things people don't agree with and 99.9% of that is blown out of proportion because people don't understand all the details.

Its not much different to me than watching people support the PirateBay owners.

Notice no one wants to talk about the laws, what laws needs to be changed and has a clear idea of what needs to happen specifically to change current legislation. Thats how you know the reaction is emotional and not one of reason and logic. It's also how you know it will never change. Crying and whining isn't an effective rallying call to affect change.

... i mean... "I blame bush. That asshole. Fucking Patriot Act. Republican asshole dickheads"

exactly fuckin-a right.

the hypocrisy re: china state secrets hacking is a perfect example. they knock our shit off left and right, we have strong evidence that they have hacked into boxes and stolen plans for 12 defense systems. they knock off everything from rolls royces to apple computers yet the poster earlier globs onto the word *alleged* in a newspaper article while he points his finger at the u.s.

that makes zero sense.

All1 · 06-25-2013, 09:00 AM

Shut up please Nsa

DWB · 06-25-2013, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baddog

Are you suggesting that wiretaps are human rights violations?

Amnesty International thinks so.

Quote:

"No one should be charged under any law for disclosing information of human rights violations by the US government. Such disclosures are protected under the rights to information and freedom of expression," said Widney Brown, Senior Director of International Law and Policy at Amnesty International.

directfiesta · 06-25-2013, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

umm, retard, the news report must include the word alleged. they are not the jury.

but thanks for reconfirming your lack of comprehension of complex topics.

dope can fry your brain ...

DWB · 06-25-2013, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...l-u.s-secrets/

So if China breaks the law it is OK to break it in return by doing the same thing, then say the law isn't being broken because they did it first? Come on.

The USA did the exact thing that would get you and I locked in a cell for a decade. They broke the law. The fact that China did it first carries no weight whatsoever. The USA is not China. And this is just one incident. There is no telling what else they have done and on what level.

Rochard · 06-25-2013, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberSEO

Man, how could you be such a brainwashed person? Do they fed you a poisoned water or what? The things you say are out of the edge. You speak like a robot repeating the same bullshit about just everything your country related too. I do remember that insanity you told about how the USA "won the space race" and now this... Are you ok, man? Huh

You really mean to tell me that there are millions of Americans working for the various intelligence agencies and millions more working for law enforcement, and only one has the balls to come forward?

Really?

What are the odds?

As for the space race, well, if the race was to make it to space the Russians won. They were the first to launch a satellite into space, and the first to put a man in space. But the "space race" wasn't about who was first; If that was the case, the US wasn't even in the race. The space race is about space exploration, which was clearly and obviously dominated by the Americans. The US went all the way the moon - and back - multiple times! During the 1980s the US had the space shuttle program; Russia copied it and failed horribly.

Rochard · 06-25-2013, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWB

Amnesty International thinks so.

"No one should be charged under any law for disclosing information of human rights violations by the US government. Such disclosures are protected under the rights to information and freedom of expression," said Widney Brown, Senior Director of International Law and Policy at Amnesty International.

What human rights violations? That one country spied on another? That one country hacked another country?

just a punk · 06-25-2013, 09:21 AM

No agreement, no extradition:

http://translate.google.com/translat... 2F560331.html

http://translate.google.com/translat...ogilevich.html

http://translate.google.com/translat...35323%2F117367

TheSquealer · 06-25-2013, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

exactly fuckin-a right.

the hypocrisy re: china state secrets hacking is a perfect example. they knock our shit off left and right, we have strong evidence that they have hacked into boxes and stolen plans for 12 defense systems. they knock off everything from rolls royces to apple computers yet the poster earlier globs onto the word *alleged* in a newspaper article while he points his finger at the u.s.

that makes zero sense.

Anyone with even a vague understanding of Intelligence understands full well that he didn't randomly come out in China. This is a major diplomatic minefield in a country that is known for putting bullets in prisoners heads to sell the organs on the open market. He did not do it without the complicity of the Chinese security services and government - at least in being assured that they would not detain him or turn him over. It's also not unrealistic to suspect he was compensated by the Chinese - when you look at the timing and the fact that Obama had been attacking China for their cyber attacks, stealing secrets etc. This was a big win for China. Think about this, about who he is... a low level contractor is accessible to foreign agents. An NSA / CIA employee... not so much. A low level contractor, easy to find. Easy to access. Easy to befriend. Easy to negotiate some terms.

China did it for political currency and to fire a shot. He had high level US intel on his person. There is can be little question as to whether or not it was also given to China. The US pressed China to turn him over - China fired back a safe, diplomatic response and in that time, he split. China is off the hook and accomplished a great deal with that little spectacle. And now he's in Russia. Russia never misses a chance to take the opposite side of the US and they too, are using him for political gain.

One thing that stood out to me as he was giving interviews from China was his exaggeration - that he could spy on the president if he wanted to and so on. A lot of that stuff seemed scripted by the Chinese to me. They couldn't have asked for a better show.

At the end of the day, what is fact is that this guy stole a bunch of data from the NSA, then went to a foreign, unfriendly country to share it with the world. His life is over no matter what. He will be in prison for the rest of his life as this can NEVER be tolerated by ANY government. Debating the law and changing the laws is a secondary issue to what he has done which is quite severe in ANY nation..

Hero?

Not so much.

What is the cause? What is the message? What is the solution? What is surprising about the NSA being able to access phone records to see what phones called what phones? He will always be remembered as "that guy who..." because there is no message or course of action attached to it that people can identify with and get behind. Of course, this won't stop him from getting a Nobel Prize.. Obama got one for no reason at all, terrorists get them etc.

just a punk · 06-25-2013, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rochard

You really mean to tell me that there are millions of Americans working for the various intelligence agencies and millions more working for law enforcement, and only one has the balls to come forward?

Wow!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rochard

As for the space race, well, if the race was to make it to space the Russians won. They were the first to launch a satellite into space, and the first to put a man in space. But the "space race" wasn't about who was first; If that was the case, the US wasn't even in the race.

Ok, let's do some simple math (simile for the rest of the World but not for you of course):

1. First satellite in the space - USSR
2. First live creature in the space - USSR
3. First man in the space - USSR
4. First woman in the space - USSR
5. First man outside of star ship in the space - USSR
6. First picture of the Moon's far side - USSR
7. First successful Moon landing - USSR
8. First man on the Moon - USA
9. First successful landing to another planet - USSR
10. First space station - USSR
11. Ten longest human space flights - Russia (5), USSR (4) and USA (1)
12. First man on another planet - ...pending...

Oh yeah, that must be an epic win for you and all other brainwashed population of your country. Congrats on winning the space race

dyna mo · 06-25-2013, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by directfiesta

dope can fry your brain ...

i'm not the one pointing out the word alleged in a newspaper article as the be all-end all in understanding what's right and wrong here.

i'm also not the one looking at america in a vacuum and discounting the international espionage that happens globally and has since before america was even a country.

livexxx · 06-25-2013, 09:40 AM

LOL, if it was the Ecuadorian cars at the airport picking him up he probably is in their Moscow embassy, if not I hoped he checked the drivers ID as he could be in Lubyanka learning how to water board.

I think technically if he was in transit and hopped in an Ecuadorian diplomatic vehicle he might be deemed not on russian soil, nor crossed their border. Certainly be the case once he gets to their embassy so that might be word play by the Russians.

dyna mo · 06-25-2013, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWB

So if China breaks the law it is OK to break it in return by doing the same thing, then say the law isn't being broken because they did it first? Come on.

The USA did the exact thing that would get you and I locked in a cell for a decade. They broke the law. The fact that China did it first carries no weight whatsoever. The USA is not China. And this is just one incident. There is no telling what else they have done and on what level.

you're smarter than this dwb. you know exactly what i am saying. and it is not, well, china started it so there.
the problem is massively complex, we live in a world where state secrets are tantamount to how shit gets done, i don't like it but it's reality.

nations exist, nations spy on each other, that's reality.

it's myopic to think that the usa should honor/award leakers in a time asa complex as this.

dyna mo · 06-25-2013, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Anyone with even a vague understanding of Intelligence understands full well that he didn't randomly come out in China. This is a major diplomatic minefield in a country that is known for putting bullets in prisoners heads to sell the organs on the open market. He did not do it without the complicity of the Chinese security services and government - at least in being assured that they would not detain him or turn him over. It's also not unrealistic to suspect he was compensated by the Chinese - when you look at the timing and the fact that Obama had been attacking China for their cyber attacks, stealing secrets etc. This was a big win for China. Think about this, about who he is... a low level contractor is accessible to foreign agents. An NSA / CIA employee... not so much. A low level contractor, easy to find. Easy to access. Easy to befriend. Easy to negotiate some terms.

China did it for political currency and to fire a shot. He had high level US intel on his person. There is can be little question as to whether or not it was also given to China. The US pressed China to turn him over - China fired back a safe, diplomatic response and in that time, he split. China is off the hook and accomplished a great deal with that little spectacle. And now he's in Russia. Russia never misses a chance to take the opposite side of the US and they too, are using him for political gain.

One thing that stood out to me as he was giving interviews from China was his exaggeration - that he could spy on the president if he wanted to and so on. A lot of that stuff seemed scripted by the Chinese to me. They couldn't have asked for a better show.

At the end of the day, what is fact is that this guy stole a bunch of data from the NSA, then went to a foreign, unfriendly country to share it with the world. His life is over no matter what. He will be in prison for the rest of his life as this can NEVER be tolerated by ANY government. Debating the law and changing the laws is a secondary issue to what he has done which is quite severe in ANY nation..

Hero?

Not so much.

What is the cause? What is the message? What is the solution? What is surprising about the NSA being able to access phone records to see what phones called what phones? He will always be remembered as "that guy who..." because there is no message or course of action attached to it that people can identify with and get behind. Of course, this won't stop him from getting a Nobel Prize.. Obama got one for no reason at all, terrorists get them etc.

it seems very clear to me now that snowden had no plan whatsoever. now he is saying he he got the job at booz to specifically access and steal these documents. that's bullshit, this guy didn't know where he was going after hong kong, and has had to hit up wikileaks and ask them wtf do i do now.

this wasn't some master plan to martyr himself for the sake of personal rights.

baddog · 06-25-2013, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWB

Amnesty International thinks so.

With all due respect, it says that is the opinion of Widney; but even if Amnesty Intl thinks so, I give them as much credibility as the ACLU.

But for the sake of argument, what human rights violations did Snowden expose?

Rochard · 06-25-2013, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaDalton

i have not agreed that my data gets read by your government - or the UK government. they would need to have a case against me and a judge needs to agree in my specific case. and there better be evidence that supports that decision

You don't think your government does the same? Think again.

TheSquealer · 06-25-2013, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

it seems very clear to me now that snowden had no plan whatsoever. now he is saying he he got the job at booz to specifically access and steal these documents. that's bullshit, this guy didn't know where he was going after hong kong, and has had to hit up wikileaks and ask them wtf do i do now.

this wasn't some master plan to martyr himself for the sake of personal rights.

Well, I would say that's unlikely given his intelligence and access to sensitive material and the nature of the work. "A plan" in the sense you are using it i believe is to change the world through a carefully calculated series of events. To me, "a plan" that is more likely is that some guy befriends him at a bar he goes to every Thursday night, builds rapport/trust and leads him into railing against the government and progressively gets him to open up more and more while that person reinforces the idea that these are outrageous abuses that must be stopped. Soon there's a mention of exposing data to the world... next thing you know, the guy announces he has a "friend" in China that can help, there is more discussion, some offer is made to him which is enticing enough that he woke up one morning and got on a plane. Once he was there, no choice was his anyway. Foreign governments like China or Russia don't really give a fuck about his personal concerns about his own government. They will use him, milk him dry and discard him when its politically convenient. This is why i say that ultimately, he will end up in a US prison. He is nothing more than political currency that everyone is trying to spend before it dries up. After that... who needs him? No one. He just becomes a thorn in the side of the host country and they'll sell him when the price is right. That price starts dropping pretty fast as the story cools.

just a punk · 06-25-2013, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rochard

You don't think your government does the same? Think again.

You mean Germans spying over all the US citizens? I don't think so.

baddog · 06-25-2013, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberSEO

You mean Germans spying over all the US citizens? I don't think so.

You think the US is spying over all the German citizens? I don't think so.

MaDalton · 06-25-2013, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baddog

You think the US is spying over all the German citizens? I don't think so.

and thats where you are wrong - see "Tempora"

dyna mo · 06-25-2013, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Well, I would say that's unlikely given his intelligence and access to sensitive material and the nature of the work. "A plan" in the sense you are using it i believe is to change the world through a carefully calculated series of events. To me, "a plan" that is more likely is that some guy befriends him at a bar he goes to every Thursday night, builds rapport/trust and leads him into railing against the government and progressively gets him to open up more and more while that person reinforces the idea that these are outrageous abuses that must be stopped. Soon there's a mention of exposing data to the world... next thing you know, the guy announces he has a "friend" in China that can help, there is more discussion, some offer is made to him which is enticing enough that he woke up one morning and got on a plane. Once he was there, no choice was his anyway. Foreign governments like China or Russia don't really give a fuck about his personal concerns about his own government. They will use him, milk him dry and discard him when its politically convenient. This is why i say that ultimately, he will end up in a US prison. He is nothing more than political currency that everyone is trying to spend before it dries up. After that... who needs him? No one. He just becomes a thorn in the side of the host country and they'll sell him when the price is right. That price starts dropping pretty fast as the story cools.

perhaps. although he hasn't struck me as being intelligent, i pretty much concluded he's not even really thinking through his actions. maybe someone at the bar coerced him, i wouldn't rule it out but i haven't thought that out entirely.

i don't see a smart person stealing state secrets and then taking those to 2, TWO, nations we are not aligned with and then trying to play the human rights card. if he were intelligent he would have gone straight to ecuador, a quick wiki read on assange would reveal that to anyone.

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livexxx Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2005 Location: UK Posts: 1,201	LOL, if it was the Ecuadorian cars at the airport picking him up he probably is in their Moscow embassy, if not I hoped he checked the drivers ID as he could be in Lubyanka learning how to water board. I think technically if he was in transit and hopped in an Ecuadorian diplomatic vehicle he might be deemed not on russian soil, nor crossed their border. Certainly be the case once he gets to their embassy so that might be word play by the Russians. __________________ http://www.webcamalerts.com for auto tweets for web cam operators Last edited by livexxx; 06-25-2013 at 09:41 AM..