ACLU - FBI uses public outreach programs to spy on Americans

[crockett]

Nothing to see here.. Just more rights being violated.

In 2011, the ACLU discovered through Freedom of Information Act requests that the FBI secretly used the mosque outreach program?as well as other community outreach programs?to collect and record information about innocent Californian Muslims' speech, beliefs, and other First Amendment-protected activities in violation of the Privacy Act. It's important to stress the FBI collected information about First-Amendment protected activities?like who attended a religious service and the contents of their conversations?without any suspicion that anyone in attendance had done anything wrong, according to the documents the ACLU obtained.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-law-reform-national-security/fbis-trojan-horse

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by crockett

Nothing to see here.. Just more rights being violated.



https://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-l...s-trojan-horse

just curious, who or what group would you suggest watching/monitoring to limit terrorism?

[crockett]

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

just curious, who or what group would you suggest watching/monitoring to limit terrorism?

If you are trying to build trust between the govt and the very groups that could help curb that terrorism, then it's likely best to not break that trust by violating the first amendment rights of th very groups you are trying to get help from.

Perhaps I'm wrong maybe the constitution and our bill of rights were only ment for certain people..

[TheSquealer]

Because of my experience, language experience and background, I have had the FBI on a few different occasions attempt to recruit me to gather and collect info on a certain community. The first two times were both in 04, I told them to fuck off. The third and final time was in 09', my wife was a month or so from getting her citizenship and I was again approached under the guise of "routine" investigation which again led to proposals to go to certain events, certain restaurants, observe/report etc. this was done outside any official capacity on his part that I could determine though I couldn't possibly know for sure. though I was able to confirm his identity, he went through a great deal of effort to conceal his identity and actual position. I only continued to speak to him a couple more times because he was targeting my wife and coercing her. He contacted her and asked to meet her while I was gone and working with a partner again was asking for both of us to help him gather information on certain people and places. Not being the brightest, he and his partner started in with the "good cop/bad cop" routine where he was asking for help and his partner was making joking remarks about it affecting her immigration statues. She texed me letting me know where she was and what was happening, I drove there as quick as I could (Panera). I walked up to them and the shock was clearly visible on their faces so I already had a solid idea as to what was happening. I sat calmly at the table and warned them to cut he shit and find someone else to play their games with - the partner tried to get tough at which point, I then screamed loudly a lot of things, but in short making it clear that if they didn't stand up and walk away, they would exit on a gurney. They stood up and walked away and that was it. That might sound a little insane or movie-like, but it helps if you understand that is a job where a newspaper headline "FBI agent gets into fist fight in Panera Bakery" ends your career. Definitely not what a guy who is trying to be invisible wants to hear or happen. Further, when you are percieve to be wildy unpredictable or irrational and ill tempered, you are no longer looked at as a potential asset but rather a potential liability.

Though I wasn't surprised at any of this, I couldn't help standing there at the citizenship ceremony where they were probably 1500-2000 people, and they announcing how many people from different countries like "Pakistan - 125 people", "Afghanistan - 87 people" and so on and thinking "wow, I wonder how many of these people they were able to get to and just how big that program is". I always assumed that it could not have been too large because human intelligence, in the absence of the threat of death or harm to ones family who is providing the information is incredibly unreliable. People are unreliable. People's interpretations of anything, even an eye witness account of an event that happened right in front of them is unreliable. I guess it wasn't too big as we are still not hearing anything about it apart from random mentions such as this one, many years after the fact.

I think that anyone who believes the government didn't make an active effort to identify Islamic extremists in the US and monitor them, post 9/11 is beyond naive. That means putting people in mosques. Thinking you can only gather intelligence with a warrant approved by a judge and be effective is also silly. The enemy is fluid, dynamic, ever moving and ever changing. The law... not so much.

Blathering on about "rights" to people with no concept of rights is pointless. Religion is not about rights, it's about which side of the fence you sit on. You are taking about rights to people who view themselves as Muslim first, tribe second, ethnicity third, former nationality 4th and "American" barely cracking the top 10 in terms of self identity.

At the end of it all, we are nothing but a bunch of self deluded bacteria - all the victims of what is little more than a genetic mandate of selfish genes, to survive and multiply at any cost, ... All while thinking we matter as we sit on a big blue rock flying through space. You are going to die. I am going to die. Your children are going to die. Your children's children are going to die. War will still be the natural state of man... and death and destruction will always exist to balance joy and prosperity. And in the middle of it all will be those who somehow think they are going to change things. Nothing will change. Millions of years of evolution brought us to this. Only millions more can undo it.

It is who and what we are.

My best advice to all is that you embrace the idea that you have to fight to survive. This is true of ALL living organisms, including humans. It has always been true. It will always be true until our genetic code mutates towards different behaviors which somehow also provide equal or greater safety/survivability to offspring and the same to everyone in the tribe. Until that time, others will want what you have. Those with less will always want more. Those who have suffered will always make others suffer. You may never want war, but war will always want you.

Republicans aren't making you life worse
Democrats aren't making your life better

To quote Shakespeare "there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so"

We are what we are
It all is what it is

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by crockett

If you are trying to build trust between the govt and the very groups that could help curb that terrorism, then it's likely best to not break that trust by violating the first amendment rights of th very groups you are trying to get help from.

Perhaps I'm wrong maybe the constitution and our bill of rights were only ment for certain people..

FYI there are 2 major aspects of trust: general and familial, are you aware of this and the imprecations?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_(social_sciences)

first generation Muslims will NEVER trust the US government and have NO intentions of being part of any America society.... and I am well aware that I place myself in a position of having my character assassinated and personally and professionally slandered by this post... however if you wish to make such broad misleading statements please study first ...

[theking]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Because of my experience, language experience and background, I have had the FBI on a few different occasions attempt to recruit me to gather and collect info on a certain community. The first two times were both in 04, I told them to fuck off. The third and final time was in 09', my wife was a month or so from getting her citizenship and I was again approached under the guise of "routine" investigation which again led to proposals to go to certain events, certain restaurants, observe/report etc. this was done outside any official capacity on his part that I could determine though I couldn't possibly know for sure. though I was able to confirm his identity, he went through a great deal of effort to conceal his identity and actual position. I only continued to speak to him a couple more times because he was targeting my wife and coercing her. He contacted her and asked to meet her while I was gone and working with a partner again was asking for both of us to help him gather information on certain people and places. Not being the brightest, he and his partner started in with the "good cop/bad cop" routine where he was asking for help and his partner was making joking remarks about it affecting her immigration statues. She texed me letting me know where she was and what was happening, I drove there as quick as I could (Panera). I walked up to them and the shock was clearly visible on their faces so I already had a solid idea as to what was happening. I sat calmly at the table and warned them to cut he shit and find someone else to play their games with - the partner tried to get tough at which point, I then screamed loudly a lot of things, but in short making it clear that if they didn't stand up and walk away, they would exit on a gurney. They stood up and walked away and that was it. That might sound a little insane or movie-like, but it helps if you understand that is a job where a newspaper headline "FBI agent gets into fist fight in Panera Bakery" ends your career. Definitely not what a guy who is trying to be invisible wants to hear or happen. Further, when you are percieve to be wildy unpredictable or irrational and ill tempered, you are no longer looked at as a potential asset but rather a potential liability.

Though I wasn't surprised at any of this, I couldn't help standing there at the citizenship ceremony where they were probably 1500-2000 people, and they announcing how many people from different countries like "Pakistan - 125 people", "Afghanistan - 87 people" and so on and thinking "wow, I wonder how many of these people they were able to get to and just how big that program is". I always assumed that it could not have been too large because human intelligence, in the absence of the threat of death or harm to ones family who is providing the information is incredibly unreliable. People are unreliable. People's interpretations of anything, even an eye witness account of an event that happened right in front of them is unreliable. I guess it wasn't too big as we are still not hearing anything about it apart from random mentions such as this one, many years after the fact.

I think that anyone who believes the government didn't make an active effort to identify Islamic extremists in the US and monitor them, post 9/11 is beyond naive. That means putting people in mosques. Thinking you can only gather intelligence with a warrant approved by a judge and be effective is also silly. The enemy is fluid, dynamic, ever moving and ever changing. The law... not so much.

Blathering on about "rights" to people with no concept of rights is pointless. Religion is not about rights, it's about which side of the fence you sit on. You are taking about rights to people who view themselves as Muslim first, tribe second, ethnicity third, former nationality 4th and "American" barely cracking the top 10 in terms of self identity.

At the end of it all, we are nothing but a bunch of self deluded bacteria - all the victims of what is little more than a genetic mandate of selfish genes, to survive and multiply at any cost, ... All while thinking we matter as we sit on a big blue rock flying through space. You are going to die. I am going to die. Your children are going to die. Your children's children are going to die. War will still be the natural state of man... and death and destruction will always exist to balance joy and prosperity. And in the middle of it all will be those who somehow think they are going to change things. Nothing will change. Millions of years of evolution brought us to this. Only millions more can undo it.

It is who and what we are.

My best advice to all is that you embrace the idea that you have to fight to survive. This is true of ALL living organisms, including humans. It has always been true. It will always be true until our genetic code mutates towards different behaviors which somehow also provide equal or greater safety/survivability to offspring and the same to everyone in the tribe. Until that time, others will want what you have. Those with less will always want more. Those who have suffered will always make others suffer. You may never want war, but war will always want you.

Republicans aren't making you life worse
Democrats aren't making your life better

To quote Shakespeare "there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so"

We are what we are
It all is what it is

The heroic tax payer...in action. Funny stuff.

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by theking

The heroic tax payer...in action. Funny stuff.

Perhaps being a crazy, crippled old man living alone and constantly pining for the past is a more fulfilling life. I don't know.

I however have put everything I've done (a great deal of which I would say is indescribably horrible) in my past and made the conscious choice to be happy. I spend my days laughing with the person I love. You spend your days taking awkward jabs at others on a message board where no one even likes or respects you and you do so, though you are clearly not even an active part of the industry.

[theking]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Perhaps being a crazy, crippled old man living alone and constantly pining for the past is a more fulfilling life. I don't know.

I however have put everything I've done (a great deal of which I would say is indescribably horrible) in my past and made the conscious choice to be happy. I spend my days laughing with the person I love. You spend your days taking awkward jabs at others on a message board where no one even likes or respects you and you do so, though you are clearly not even an active part of the industry.

Pigshit. You are ignorant of fact so you make up wild assumptions/conclusions...but please feel free to keep posting these funny stories of yours...they amuse me.

[alias]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Because of my experience, language experience and background, I have had the FBI on a few different occasions attempt to recruit me to gather and collect info on a certain community. The first two times were both in 04, I told them to fuck off. The third and final time was in 09', my wife was a month or so from getting her citizenship and I was again approached under the guise of "routine" investigation which again led to proposals to go to certain events, certain restaurants, observe/report etc. this was done outside any official capacity on his part that I could determine though I couldn't possibly know for sure. though I was able to confirm his identity, he went through a great deal of effort to conceal his identity and actual position. I only continued to speak to him a couple more times because he was targeting my wife and coercing her. He contacted her and asked to meet her while I was gone and working with a partner again was asking for both of us to help him gather information on certain people and places. Not being the brightest, he and his partner started in with the "good cop/bad cop" routine where he was asking for help and his partner was making joking remarks about it affecting her immigration statues. She texed me letting me know where she was and what was happening, I drove there as quick as I could (Panera). I walked up to them and the shock was clearly visible on their faces so I already had a solid idea as to what was happening. I sat calmly at the table and warned them to cut he shit and find someone else to play their games with - the partner tried to get tough at which point, I then screamed loudly a lot of things, but in short making it clear that if they didn't stand up and walk away, they would exit on a gurney. They stood up and walked away and that was it. That might sound a little insane or movie-like, but it helps if you understand that is a job where a newspaper headline "FBI agent gets into fist fight in Panera Bakery" ends your career. Definitely not what a guy who is trying to be invisible wants to hear or happen. Further, when you are percieve to be wildy unpredictable or irrational and ill tempered, you are no longer looked at as a potential asset but rather a potential liability.

Though I wasn't surprised at any of this, I couldn't help standing there at the citizenship ceremony where they were probably 1500-2000 people, and they announcing how many people from different countries like "Pakistan - 125 people", "Afghanistan - 87 people" and so on and thinking "wow, I wonder how many of these people they were able to get to and just how big that program is". I always assumed that it could not have been too large because human intelligence, in the absence of the threat of death or harm to ones family who is providing the information is incredibly unreliable. People are unreliable. People's interpretations of anything, even an eye witness account of an event that happened right in front of them is unreliable. I guess it wasn't too big as we are still not hearing anything about it apart from random mentions such as this one, many years after the fact.

I think that anyone who believes the government didn't make an active effort to identify Islamic extremists in the US and monitor them, post 9/11 is beyond naive. That means putting people in mosques. Thinking you can only gather intelligence with a warrant approved by a judge and be effective is also silly. The enemy is fluid, dynamic, ever moving and ever changing. The law... not so much.

Blathering on about "rights" to people with no concept of rights is pointless. Religion is not about rights, it's about which side of the fence you sit on. You are taking about rights to people who view themselves as Muslim first, tribe second, ethnicity third, former nationality 4th and "American" barely cracking the top 10 in terms of self identity.

At the end of it all, we are nothing but a bunch of self deluded bacteria - all the victims of what is little more than a genetic mandate of selfish genes, to survive and multiply at any cost, ... All while thinking we matter as we sit on a big blue rock flying through space. You are going to die. I am going to die. Your children are going to die. Your children's children are going to die. War will still be the natural state of man... and death and destruction will always exist to balance joy and prosperity. And in the middle of it all will be those who somehow think they are going to change things. Nothing will change. Millions of years of evolution brought us to this. Only millions more can undo it.

It is who and what we are.

My best advice to all is that you embrace the idea that you have to fight to survive. This is true of ALL living organisms, including humans. It has always been true. It will always be true until our genetic code mutates towards different behaviors which somehow also provide equal or greater safety/survivability to offspring and the same to everyone in the tribe. Until that time, others will want what you have. Those with less will always want more. Those who have suffered will always make others suffer. You may never want war, but war will always want you.

Republicans aren't making you life worse
Democrats aren't making your life better

To quote Shakespeare "there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so"

We are what we are
It all is what it is

Which country is your wife emigrating from?

[DBS.US]

[Captain Kawaii]

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

just curious, who or what group would you suggest watching/monitoring to limit terrorism?

US and Israel gov agencies and friends are good places to start. Considering how they rank in world of terrorism.

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by alias

Which country is your wife emigrating from?

Russia ...

[alias]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Russia ...

Ah, that makes sense now.

Russian girls are babes!

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by theking

Pigshit. You are ignorant of fact so you make up wild assumptions/conclusions...but please feel free to keep posting these funny stories of yours...they amuse me.

Or course I am wrong about the self described dooms day pepper and widely agreed lunatic.

If someone called me 4'7".... I'd simply correct them and say I'm 5'10". Of course, if I actually was 4'7"... I'd probably respond with something to deflect away from the truth like "pigshit! You know nothing about me sport"

[theking]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Or course I am wrong about the self described dooms day pepper and widely agreed lunatic.

If someone called me 4'7".... I'd simply correct them and say I'm 5'10". Of course, if I actually was 4'7"... I'd probably respond with something to deflect away from the truth like "pigshit! You know nothing about me sport"

Pigshit...I have never stated that I am a "dooms day prepper"...so there you go making shit up again.

I have stated that I have been prepping my wilderness place for the past several years...to move off grid. The place is now good to go...but unfortunately my dog has gotten old on me and is suffering from it. So now I am going to postpone it until my dog passes away.

[TheSquealer]

I stand corrected. I misunderstood that you are trying to move off the grid into even deeper antisocial solitude, well armed and prepared to "survive" because ....you're completely sane and well adjusted. As is anyone who is preparing for a coordinated, armed assault against their cabin in the woods who is not a drug dealer or running from the Feds.

The only thing holding you back from your perfect utopia of dining on squirrel meat, reading old issues of American Rifleman and chasing mosquitos around the cabin for the rest of your short life is an aging dog.

Sounds legit.

[alias]

Confirmed for sounding legit.

[crockett]

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

FYI there are 2 major aspects of trust: general and familial, are you aware of this and the imprecations?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_(social_sciences)

first generation Muslims will NEVER trust the US government and have NO intentions of being part of any America society.... and I am well aware that I place myself in a position of having my character assassinated and personally and professionally slandered by this post... however if you wish to make such broad misleading statements please study first ...

In the 40's it was the Japanese whom the govt went crazy over due to WW2. We rounded them up and stuck them in camps. In the 50s it was the Russians and commie supporters whom felt the wrath of govt spying and many innocent people were put on trial or black listed from getting jobs. Before both it was black people whom were targeted and profiled, something that still happens today.

All of these were justified by protecting Americans from some random evil doers..

If we are just going to spy on people because of their religious beliefs, then when do we start spying on conservative Christians? They have had more negative impact on my life than any Muslim and they actively work to take over our govt.

[theking]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

I stand corrected. I misunderstood that you are trying to move off the grid into even deeper antisocial solitude, well armed and prepared to "survive" because ....you're completely sane and well adjusted. As is anyone who is preparing for a coordinated, armed assault against their cabin in the woods who is not a drug dealer or running from the Feds.

The only thing holding you back from your perfect utopia of dining on squirrel meat, reading old issues of American Rifleman and chasing mosquitos around the cabin for the rest of your short life is an aging dog.

Sounds legit.

You are correct about me being anti social. I have stated multiple times over the years that I am not much of a humanist and for the most part I do not like the human animal. I have seen to much shit over my lifetime to have much use for the human animal...I prefer the company of a dog.

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by crockett

In the 40's it was the Japanese whom the govt went crazy over due to WW2. We rounded them up and stuck them in camps. In the 50s it was the Russians and commie supporters whom felt the wrath of govt spying and many innocent people were put on trial or black listed from getting jobs. Before both it was black people whom were targeted and profiled, something that still happens today.

All of these were justified by protecting Americans from some random evil doers..

If we are just going to spy on people because of their religious beliefs, then when do we start spying on conservative Christians? They have had more negative impact on my life than any Muslim and they actively work to take over our govt.

I guess when conservative Christians start walking into business with bombs and start bombing public events ... that work for you?

[theking]

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

I guess when conservative Christians start walking into business with bombs and start bombing public events ... that work for you?

Works for me.

[crockett]

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

I guess when conservative Christians start walking into business with bombs and start bombing public events ... that work for you?

Did you miss the bombing at the Olympics in Atlanta? How about the various abortion clinic bombings? They were done by fundamental Christian concservatives. I'm sure there are probably more, but that's at least a few I can think of off the top of my head.

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by crockett

Did you miss the bombing at the Olympics in Atlanta? How about the various abortion clinic bombings? They were done by fundamental Christian concservatives. I'm sure there are probably more, but that's at least a few I can think of off the top of my head.

WTF is wrong with you? why would you even think the FBI isn't keeping tabs on the anti abortion nutjobs?

are you just posting stupid shit to provoke an argument? or is your position it's okay to 'spy' on Christian nutjobs but not Muslim nutjobs?

[epitome]

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

just curious, who or what group would you suggest watching/monitoring to limit terrorism?

CIA, NSA and DHS.

[epitome]

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

I guess when conservative Christians start walking into business with bombs and start bombing public events ... that work for you?

Um, they have already started.

[crockett]

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

WTF is wrong with you? why would you even think the FBI isn't keeping tabs on the anti abortion nutjobs?

are you just posting stupid shit to provoke an argument? or is your position it's okay to 'spy' on Christian nutjobs but not Muslim nutjobs?

I'm just trying to determine how you can consider all people of one group as risks that its ok to spy on, yet not other groups. Why is it ok to spy on any random Muslim group yet not any random Christian group?

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by crockett

I'm just trying to determine how you can consider all people of one group as risks that its ok to spy on, yet not other groups. Why is it ok to spy on any random Muslim group yet not any random Christian group?

okay fair enough... now's here's the question for you... if you don't watch the group how do you find the assholes? ESP?

BTW last I checked Christian leaders haven't vowed to destroy the west, and you have no idea what bunch of whack jobs are being watched... maybe they are watching you.... what are you up too?

[Captain Kawaii]

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

okay fair enough... now's here's the question for you... if you don't watch the group how do you find the assholes? ESP?

BTW last I checked Christian leaders haven't vowed to destroy the west, and you have no idea what bunch of whack jobs are being watched... maybe they are watching you.... what are you up too?

Only EXTREMIST MUSLIMS have threatened the West. The SAME WAY EXTREMIST CHRISTIANS and ZiONISTS threaten pretty much everyone else.

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by crockett

I'm just trying to determine how you can consider all people of one group as risks that its ok to spy on, yet not other groups. Why is it ok to spy on any random Muslim group yet not any random Christian group?

Its absurd to think that a government is devoting resources to "an entire group". NO ONE HAS EVER in this discussion or in the article or as a matter of official policy said an entire group is a direct security risk and then acted as such to counter that risk. This not simply a gross distortion of the facts on your part, its an idea wholly fabricated by you and then argued as if it is actually real. Furthermore, its an impossible task.

Additionally, Japanese were spying on the USA as they attacked and destroyed the US Navy and then invaded.

The goal of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (and aligned nations) was to destroy capitalism/the USA. Also an obvious problem. You are blathering about Hollywood blacklists while acting like very real espionage was not a serious problem and where at risk was the very existence of the nation and a full nuclear war, as Soviet Union and iron curtain countries were squaring off against the west intent on winning at any cost and spreading their misery across the globe. You do know who Stalin was don't you? The guy who butchered 10s of millions of his own people in that time? You are aware of the cultural revolution in china and how many millions were massacred for the greater good? Or... did you skip "obvious day" in high school? These problems were real.

Criticisms of what was done - endless
Better solutions proposed - zero

So simple and easy to be you.

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by Captain Kawaii

Only EXTREMIST MUSLIMS have threatened the West. The SAME WAY EXTREMIST CHRISTIANS and ZiONISTS threaten pretty much everyone else.

so it's okay to watch the 'extremist Muslims'... that makes sense... how do you figure out which ones are the extremist Muslims with out keeping an eye on the group as a whole? ESP?

we live in a world now where almost everyone is watched all the time... get over it

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Its absurd to think that a government is devoting resources to "an entire group". NO ONE HAS EVER in this discussion or in the article or as a matter of official policy said an entire group is a direct security risk and then acted as such to counter that risk. This not simply a gross distortion of the facts on your part, its an idea wholly fabricated by you and then argued as if it is actually real. Furthermore, its an impossible task.

Additionally, Japanese were spying on the USA as they attacked and destroyed the US Navy and then invaded.

The goal of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (and aligned nations) was to destroy capitalism/the USA. Also an obvious problem. You are blathering about Hollywood blacklists while acting like very real espionage was not a serious problem and where at risk was the very existence of the nation and a full nuclear war, as Soviet Union and iron curtain countries were squaring off against the west intent on winning at any cost and spreading their misery across the globe. You do know who Stalin was don't you? The guy who butchered 10s of millions of his own people in that time? You are aware of the cultural revolution in china and how many millions were massacred for the greater good? Or... did you skip "obvious day" in high school? These problems were real.

Criticisms of what was done - endless
Better solutions proposed - zero

So simple and easy to be you.

the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia was started by school teachers

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

so it's okay to watch the 'extremist Muslims'... that makes sense... how do you figure out which ones are the extremist Muslims with out keeping an eye on the group as a whole? ESP?

we live in a world now where almost everyone is watched all the time... get over it

Funnier is that they are arguing claims made by the same organization that ardently defended NAMBLA, the KKK and other similar groups and people because they are "on the side of right".... uhm.... hmmm...

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia was started by school teachers

The Taliban was started by students. kinda

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

The Taliban was started by students. kinda

schools are dangerous places

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

schools are dangerous places

Its also interesting to note that those who are paranoid about government, surveillance etc actually share more in common with worst of humanity than the best. Their paranoia, they want you to know, is always in the interest of the "oppressed". The paranoia. The warnings. The red flags. They are constantly wailing that "they" are coming to get you. They appoint themselves your protectors. The let it be known that their intentions are noble and pure. They want you to know that they, not you are there to protect the innocent.

Yet...every brutal dictator in the world came to power under the guise of "freeing the people" from tyranny and espousing the very same ideas. Then of course, most went on to terrorize them and in many cases, dive right into a few rounds of genocide, slaughtering innocents by the 10s of 1000s or in greater numbers in the name of helping others, in "justice", in the name of the "greater good" and so on.

All any tyrant needs is a monster to fight against, the charisma to convince others he's going to save the people from that monster and he can win most of the crowd to his side. This happens all over the world, all the time and the "monster" is almost never a real or tangible thing... it's simply perceived or imagined.

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Its also interesting to note that those who are paranoid about government, surveillance etc actually share more in common with worst of humanity than the best. Their paranoia, they want you to know, is always in the interest of the "oppressed". The paranoia. The warnings. The red flags. They are constantly wailing that "they" are coming to get you. They appoint themselves your protectors. The let it be known that their intentions are noble and pure. They want you to know that they, not you are there to protect the innocent.

Yet...every brutal dictator in the world came to power under the guise of "freeing the people" from tyranny and espousing the very same ideas. Then of course, most went on to terrorize them and in many cases, dive right into a few rounds of genocide, slaughtering innocents by the 10s of 1000s or in greater numbers in the name of helping others, in "justice", in the name of the "greater good" and so on.

All any tyrant needs is a monster to fight against, the charisma to convince others he's going to save the people from that monster and he can win most of the crowd to his side. This happens all over the world, all the time and the "monster" is almost never a real or tangible thing... it's simply perceived or imagined.

another interesting note is that the liberals use charter assassination and slander instead of facts to uphold their ideological position.... that my friend is dehumanization at it's finest... and that is the first step on the slippery road to genocide.. ..

[Vendzilla]

Originally Posted by epitome

Um, they have already started.

President Truman started the NSA in 1952

Supreme court rules warrants are required for Domestic Intelligence surveillance 1973

Senate investagations uncover domestic spying by NSA 1975

Foriegn Intelligence Surveillance Act protecting Americans from domestic spying 1978

President Bush signs order to begin NSA's domestic spying program
NSA believes authorization allowed to spy on US phone calls and emails without warrant
Oct 4th 2001

NSA Starts Construction on Massive Data Center to Hold the World's Intercepted Communications Jan 6th 2011

Government Admits NSA Spying Violated Constitution July 20th 2012

Washington Post Reveals NSA Internal Audit Showing Thousands of Violations Aug 15th 2013

https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline

[TheSquealer]

I don't know much, but I know black Jesus would never allow such a thing. He is lot only the messiah, but also a constitutional lawyer.

[The Sultan Of Smut]

Just thought I'd throw this in here in case anyone was wondering what are the top 15 things that actually kill you.

1. Diseases of the heart: 28.5
2. Malignant tumors: 22.8
3. Cerebrovascular diseases: 6.7
4. Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 5.1
5. Accidents (unintentional injuries): 4.4
6. Diabetes mellitus: 3.0
7. Influenza and pneumonia: 2.7
8. Alzheimer's disease: 2.4
9. Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis : 1.7
10. Septicemia (blood poisoning) : 1.4
11. Suicide: 1.3
12. Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis: 1.1
13. Primary hypertension and hypertensive renal disease : 0.8
14. Parkinson's disease (tied): 0.7
15. Homicide (tied) : 0.7

As far as I can tell none of these causes requires spying to prevent them.

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by The Sultan Of Smut

Just thought I'd throw this in here in case anyone was wondering what are the top 15 things that actually kill you.

1. Diseases of the heart: 28.5
2. Malignant tumors: 22.8
3. Cerebrovascular diseases: 6.7
4. Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 5.1
5. Accidents (unintentional injuries): 4.4
6. Diabetes mellitus: 3.0
7. Influenza and pneumonia: 2.7
8. Alzheimer's disease: 2.4
9. Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis : 1.7
10. Septicemia (blood poisoning) : 1.4
11. Suicide: 1.3
12. Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis: 1.1
13. Primary hypertension and hypertensive renal disease : 0.8
14. Parkinson's disease (tied): 0.7
15. Homicide (tied) : 0.7

As far as I can tell none of these causes requires spying to prevent them.

The security of the state (militarily, economically, politically) which Is what allows idiotic Americans to gorge themselves to death on pizza and hamburgers and to eventually die of a heart attack vs a dying in a full nuclear strike - does requiring spying and that is why every nation has multiple agencies and many 1000's of people and 9 and 10 figure budgets dedicated to intelligence gathering and analysis.

[crockett]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

The security of the state (militarily, economically, politically) which Is what allows idiotic Americans to gorge themselves to death on pizza and hamburgers and to eventually die of a heart attack vs a dying in a full nuclear strike - does requiring spying and that is why every nation has multiple agencies and many 1000's of people and 9 and 10 figure budgets dedicated to intelligence gathering and analysis.

Of course we would never know if the guy down the street has a nuclear warhead in his basement or not, with out some good ole warrant less domestic spying.

It is odd thou that all this spying didn't manage to nab the Boston bombers even thou the FBI knew about them.

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by crockett

Of course we would never know if the guy down the street has a nuclear warhead in his basement or not, with out some good ole warrant less domestic spying.

I'm sorry, were you risking criticism by actually forming a point and adopting a position you'd actually have to defend with a well thought out and well reasoned argument? Or is this just more of your usual nonsense of criticizing with no solution.?

Empires are built with balls and brains just as the USA was built and so were all before it. They survive as long as drive, determination, nationalism/identity, ambition and other similarly cohesive forces thrive. No empire was built on the ideals of a perfect legal system that perfectly protects everyone's "rights". Those empires that moved in that direction more often than not, quickly met their demise at the hands of those who were bound and hobbled by such high ideals.

This empire is dying. The "dream" died long ago. All your bluster about the great theater of partisan politics is nothing more than argument after argument about the placement of the deck chairs on the titanic. Even more disturbing is the passion and anger with which people like you, do it.

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by crockett

It is odd thou that all this spying didn't manage to nab the Boston bombers even thou the FBI knew about them.

Uhmmmm yeah, to you it's "odd". Or it was simply a statistical certainty that organizations guessing right 1000 times a day would eventually guess wrong.

Again, since you have no argument, you argue that the fact that imperfect systems exist means they don't work. Yet you can't explain what does work because of course you would have to argue against the very same methods used by every government on the planet.

[TheSquealer]

Amyway, my car is ready so I'll leave you to your constant bitterness, fretting, anger and despair. I'll be taking a trip with my girlfriend, who I love more than anything in this world to celebrate life, our life together and our happiness on a tropical beach, as you continue to drone on about how horrible republicans are and continue to believe that your problems and seemingly endless sources of strife are outside of you, rather than inside of you. So forgive me for not replying further.

[crockett]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Uhmmmm yeah, to you it's "odd". Or it was simply a statistical certainty that organizations guessing right 1000 times a day would eventually guess wrong.

Again, since you have no argument, you argue that the fact that imperfect systems exist means they don't work. Yet you can't explain what does work because of course you would have to argue against the very same methods used by every government on the planet.

I think my argument is pretty fucking clear you just don't want to hear it. It's quite simple, the govt should not be breaking our constitutional rights and it sure as hell should not be spying on people with out a warrant. Is that simple enough for you?

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by crockett

Of course we would never know if the guy down the street has a nuclear warhead in his basement or not, with out some good ole warrant less domestic spying.

It is odd thou that all this spying didn't manage to nab the Boston bombers even thou the FBI knew about them.

well there are big political issues with dealing with Islam.... your hysterical post is a reference here BTW....

[crockett]

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

well there are big political issues with dealing with Islam.... your hysterical post is a reference here BTW....

You missed the irony of what I posted. The simple fact that two college kids can successfully bomb a major event after the FBI was warned about one of them, just shows that spying on Americans will not stop or even curb the types of attacks that are likely to happen in this country. Almost every attack that has happened since 9/11 has been carried out by lone wolfs.. Many of which had warning signs that possibly could of been stopped with actual police work or proper investigations not mass spying.

[sandman!]

not surprised