So Bitcoin's 2 main claims to fame are...

[Biggy]

1. It was used to power the largest illicilt drug network online.
2. The biggest exchange goes down, and has close to half a billion stolen from it?

Yep, let's leave it unregulated forever!

The world is ready for a crypto currency, no doubt, but Bitcoin isn't it.

I can see a Google coming out with Googlecoin, where they pay for all the infrastructure (no miners), guarantee the currency, make it easy to buy/sell/exchange, and have the capabilities to tango with the government's worldwide when they do decide to regulate, while fixing up some of the other inherent flaws with Bitcoin. Google in turn would just charge service fees on every transaction and thus create and control a massive payment system. And when a Google, or an Apple, or some other company does try something like this, it will really be the deathbed for bitcoin.

If anyone knows how I can short Bitcoins, please feel free to post in this thread. Is there a way to short Bitcoin?

If there isn't an inherent way to place a bet against a currency, I'd say that's pretty unfair and another example how its easier to go long on it and drive the price up, but harder to sell or short the stock. Last I checked, MTGOX also put a withdrawal limit on Bitcoins, but you could basically buy an unlimited amount?

[AsianDivaGirlsWebDude]

ADG

[dyna mo]

Actually, Bitcoin is an experiment in peer to peer payment systems, from the creator(s)

I've been working on a new electronic cash system that's fully
peer-to-peer, with no trusted third party.

The paper is available at:
http://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

The main properties:
Double-spending is prevented with a peer-to-peer network.
No mint or other trusted parties.
Participants can be anonymous.
New coins are made from Hashcash style proof-of-work.
The proof-of-work for new coin generation also powers the
network to prevent double-spending.

Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System

Abstract. A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would
allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another
without the burdens of going through a financial institution.

[seeric]

I blame Cards Against Humanity.

Check this out.

http://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/e..._a_bubble.html

Bubbles can be very damaging, especially for those who arrived late with the hope of getting something for nothing. Even if they are inflationary events, the outcome of a bubble's blow off is very deflationary as large quantities of capital vanish in the wave of bankruptcies and financial defaults they trigger. Historically, they tended to be far in-between, but between 1995 and 2008 three bubbles took place back-to-back; the stock market (deflated in 2000), real estate (deflated in 2006) and commodities (deflated in 2008).



POP!

That darn bubble.

[Biggy]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

Actually, Bitcoin is an experiment in peer to peer payment systems, from the creator(s)

If google can create driverless cars, it can create a better system of Bitcoin that copies over the ideologies of what makes BTC attractive to people.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by Biggy

If google can create driverless cars, it can create a better system of Bitcoin that copies over the ideologies of what makes BTC attractive to people.

Sure. I think the experiment has suceeded. In an age when most transactions are electronic, it makes sense to have a digital currency as an adjunct to paper currency.

[Biggy]

Originally Posted by seeric

I blame Cards Against Humanity.

Check this out.

http://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/e..._a_bubble.html

Bubbles can be very damaging, especially for those who arrived late with the hope of getting something for nothing. Even if they are inflationary events, the outcome of a bubble's blow off is very deflationary as large quantities of capital vanish in the wave of bankruptcies and financial defaults they trigger. Historically, they tended to be far in-between, but between 1995 and 2008 three bubbles took place back-to-back; the stock market (deflated in 2000), real estate (deflated in 2006) and commodities (deflated in 2008).



POP!

That darn bubble.

Yeah, I mean I am just thinking, if this is such a legit currency, why can't a person place a bet against it? I mean, you can go out and place bets against every real currency out there. It helps keep a currency honest.

But for some strange reason, you cant short Bitcoin? You can buy an infinite amount, but can only sell a certain amount per day? So there's restrictions on the sell side, but none on the buy side?

If what I am saying is true, then what would be the real value of the currency if it had to behave like every other currency and was exposed to being shorted?

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by Biggy

Yeah, I mean I am just thinking, if this is such a legit currency, why can't a person place a bet against it? I mean, you can go out and place bets against every real currency out there. It helps keep a currency honest.

But for some strange reason, you cant short Bitcoin? You can buy an infinite amount, but can only sell a certain amount per day? So there's restrictions on the sell side, but none on the buy side?

If what I am saying is true, then what would be the real value of the currency if it had to behave like every other currency and was exposed to being shorted?

It's a very new tech, nevertheless, trading options, such as shorting, are emerging:

https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/features

https://campbx.com/

http://www.avatrade.com/trading-info...arkets/bitcoin

[seeric]

Originally Posted by Biggy

Yeah, I mean I am just thinking, if this is such a legit currency, why can't a person place a bet against it? I mean, you can go out and place bets against every real currency out there. It helps keep a currency honest.

But for some strange reason, you cant short Bitcoin? You can buy an infinite amount, but can only sell a certain amount per day? So there's restrictions on the sell side, but none on the buy side?

If what I am saying is true, then what would be the real value of the currency if it had to behave like every other currency and was exposed to being shorted?

Exactly!

The only true value of any currency is "How does the market it lives in feel when they wake up in the morning".

I've been following BC since 22.00 or so, and the thing I've never liked is the whole "You can buy in as much as you want, but you can't buy out to make your money". That's always concerned me. If I buy in at 22.00 and it goes to 1200.00 for a day, and I want to cash out, then I should be able to do that.

Anyway, I'm no Wall Street Analyst. Just some dude giving an opinion.

I agree with what you're saying 100%.

[dyna mo]

I don't think the dollar was available as an investment with many different trading options when it was first introduced, it received quite a bit of skepticism also. BTC wasn't created to be an investment, but just like the dollar, investment opportunities are becoming more available as it lives on.

[Wellness Cash]

Originally Posted by seeric

If I buy in at 22.00 and it goes to 1200.00 for a day, and I want to cash out, then I should be able to do that.

Um, you can

[NEW XTC]

Get your guess on:
https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=1134484

[Biggy]

Originally Posted by NEW XTC

Get your guess on:
https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=1134484

I'm going to post $12, because 12 is my lucky number.

And this is from someone who likes cryptocurrencies, think its a good concept, etc.

I just think something is going to come along, powered by a big company, that's going to be easier to use and safer, and that's going to be the end of Bitcoin. It won't go to $0 unless the govt can somehow shut it down, but I think it will become like some other horse and buggy thing no one wants, like Myspace to today's Facebook. Myspace exists today, so will BTC, but no one will give a shit about it.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by Biggy

I'm going to post $12, because 12 is my lucky number.

And this is from someone who likes cryptocurrencies, think its a good concept, etc.

I just think something is going to come along, powered by a big company, that's going to be easier to use and safer, and that's going to be the end of Bitcoin. It won't go to $0 unless the govt can somehow shut it down, but I think it will become like some other horse and buggy thing no one wants, like Myspace to today's Facebook. Myspace exists today, so will BTC, but no one will give a shit about it.

Another scenario could come from a sovereign nation whose currency takes a shit and no other nation is there to help bail em out, they create their own cryptocurrency with the full blessing of that government, other nations follow with their own.

[edgeprod]

Originally Posted by Biggy

If anyone knows how I can short Bitcoins, please feel free to post in this thread. Is there a way to short Bitcoin?

I will be happy to short your BTC for you. What volume would you like to short? One order or multiple?

[Paul]

Originally Posted by Biggy

I'm going to post $12, because 12 is my lucky number.

And this is from someone who likes cryptocurrencies, think its a good concept, etc.

I just think something is going to come along, powered by a big company, that's going to be easier to use and safer, and that's going to be the end of Bitcoin. It won't go to $0 unless the govt can somehow shut it down, but I think it will become like some other horse and buggy thing no one wants, like Myspace to today's Facebook. Myspace exists today, so will BTC, but no one will give a shit about it.

I think you're right

Google have already invested in Ripple

Originally Posted by dyna mo

Another scenario could come from a sovereign nation whose currency takes a shit and no other nation is there to help bail em out, they create their own cryptocurrency with the full blessing of that government, other nations follow with their own.

Does Auroracoin have anything officially to do with the Icelandic government?

Auroracoin is a cryptocurrency for Iceland. It is based on litecoin and is 50% premined. The premined coins will be distributed to the entire population of Iceland, commencing on midnight 25th of March 2014.

[AmeliaG]

Originally Posted by Biggy

1. It was used to power the largest illicilt drug network online.
2. The biggest exchange goes down, and has close to half a billion stolen from it?

Yep, let's leave it unregulated forever!

The world is ready for a crypto currency, no doubt, but Bitcoin isn't it.

I can see a Google coming out with Googlecoin, where they pay for all the infrastructure (no miners), guarantee the currency, make it easy to buy/sell/exchange, and have the capabilities to tango with the government's worldwide when they do decide to regulate, while fixing up some of the other inherent flaws with Bitcoin. Google in turn would just charge service fees on every transaction and thus create and control a massive payment system. And when a Google, or an Apple, or some other company does try something like this, it will really be the deathbed for bitcoin.

If anyone knows how I can short Bitcoins, please feel free to post in this thread. Is there a way to short Bitcoin?

If there isn't an inherent way to place a bet against a currency, I'd say that's pretty unfair and another example how its easier to go long on it and drive the price up, but harder to sell or short the stock. Last I checked, MTGOX also put a withdrawal limit on Bitcoins, but you could basically buy an unlimited amount?

If Google came out with a currency, I'd accept it, just like I accept Dollars, Euros, Yen, Bitcoin, etc.

If last you checked, Gox put a "withdrawal limit on Bitcoins", you might not be 100% current on that situation. Gox is (was) hardly the only way to acquire or exchange Bitcoin.

I mean, I think it would be utopia if a data-mining company owned money. Ideally, the data-mining company would have a global monopoly on money and cameras in every room on earth. I think that would be best because I'd hate for Google to miss out on a single awesome thing I do. I'm that fascinating.

[Mutt]

Originally Posted by edgeprod

I will be happy to short your BTC for you. What volume would you like to short? One order or multiple?

So if Biggy wants to sell 100 bitcoins short today at 600 dollars you'll put $60,000 in escrow and any time Biggy wants to repay you the 100 bitcoins you'll release the 60K to him?

[edgeprod]

Originally Posted by Mutt

So if Biggy wants to sell 100 bitcoins short today at 600 dollars you'll put $60,000 in escrow and any time Biggy wants to repay you the 100 bitcoins you'll release the 60K to him?

That's the proposal I was making, yes. We'd each put money in escrow. On my side, the full value of the BTC, as of the day we sign the contract. Him, 2-3x the value, in the likely event that BTC rises.

I'd like a minimum-time lock-up as part of the agreement (6-12 months will do fine). Biggy, please Skype me a contact for your attorney and I can have mine call yours to make arrangements. I'll be in Jamaica and Mexico this week, but am free afterward.

Let's say 50 coins minimum, 150 maximum?

[Mutt]

Originally Posted by AmeliaG

If Google came out with a currency, I'd accept it, just like I accept Dollars, Euros, Yen, Bitcoin, etc.

If last you checked, Gox put a "withdrawal limit on Bitcoins", you might not be 100% current on that situation. Gox is (was) hardly the only way to acquire or exchange Bitcoin.

I mean, I think it would be utopia if a data-mining company owned money. Ideally, the data-mining company would have a global monopoly on money and cameras in every room on earth. I think that would be best because I'd hate for Google to miss out on a single awesome thing I do. I'm that fascinating.

Scroll down https://www.buttercoin.com

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by Paul

Does Auroracoin have anything officially to do with the Icelandic government?

I am not familiar with this, interesting though and it would seem to me they are thinking of it in terms of it having the potential to be an official Icelandic government sanctioned currency.

Pretty cool!

[NEW XTC]

Originally Posted by Biggy

1. It was used to power the largest illicilt drug network online.
2. The biggest exchange goes down, and has close to half a billion stolen from it?

Yep, let's leave it unregulated forever!

Do you have any idea how the US could regulated it (it's currently regulated in many ways) but how could we regulated it more - I think only through an act of Congress (both houses and signed by Obama)

Also do you think US law would have any effect on BTC except driving people away from using the Dollar?

some thoughts from earlier:

Originally Posted by NEW XTC

I've been trying to think just exactly how a US "Ban" on Bitcoin would look like - some have said that the gov could block all fiat to BTC transfers - I don't think that's possible..for one it would take an act of congress to make a sweeping new law that would apply only to cryptos and not affect other currencies - which would get tied up in the courts for years and most likely get struck down. Even if they did pull off some crazy law that made it illegal to change BTC into dollars - exchanges would be set up in other countries in days not weeks - already BTC are traded at every Starbucks anyway. Any attempt to drive it underground would only send the new emerging economy elsewhere and all the associated tax revenue.

Aside from that - making mining and mining equipment illegal...can you imagine the field day the "small gov" nuts would have - that would have zero chance in the courts.

Maybe they could make it illegal to have a BTC wallet on your computer - kinda like cp? Yea right.

Maybe some takedown system where they demand all BTC related info removed from any website ala DMCA - that would have no effect other than people would host in other countries.

No there is no way to "Ban" cryptos - not even a little bit. Nuking the entire internet would be the only way to slow BTC.

[Penny24Seven]

every single time it drops in price I hear "the bubble pop bullshit" How many times can you pop that bubble while people like me and many I know are making xx,xxx every couple weeks. The more it pops the better for me so if you want to call it that I guess carry on lol

[Biggy]

Originally Posted by Brian837

every single time it drops in price I hear "the bubble pop bullshit" How many times can you pop that bubble while people like me and many I know are making xx,xxx every couple weeks. The more it pops the better for me so if you want to call it that I guess carry on lol

Here's a chart of Bitcoin. Reminder, Bitcoin was $200 3-4 months ago. Since early Dec, when bitcoin hit a high, the trend has been one direction: down.



image from: winkdex.com - The bottom graphs are volume. Look at how quiet the volume got in January as it drifted down - interest waning off possibly?. In Feb, the pick up in volume is from the MTGOX closure if I had to guess.

some would argue the bubble has already popped.

[MaDalton]

[Biggy]

Originally Posted by edgeprod

That's the proposal I was making, yes. We'd each put money in escrow. On my side, the full value of the BTC, as of the day we sign the contract. Him, 2-3x the value, in the likely event that BTC rises.

I'd like a minimum-time lock-up as part of the agreement (6-12 months will do fine). Biggy, please Skype me a contact for your attorney and I can have mine call yours to make arrangements. I'll be in Jamaica and Mexico this week, but am free afterward.

Let's say 50 coins minimum, 150 maximum?

Thanks for the opportunity, and if Bitcoin crosses below $500 decisively in the next few weeks, I very may well might take you up on that offer if you'll still have it.

But it concerns me that in order to short this, I need to set it up in a private deal. If I want to short a stock, I log in to a simple system and short it. How come this doesn't exist in the Bitcoin world, and if it did exist, what do you think would happen to the price in the short-term, mid-term, long-term?

[edgeprod]

Originally Posted by Biggy

Thanks for the opportunity, and if Bitcoin crosses below $500 decisively in the next few weeks, I very may well might take you up on that offer if you'll still have it.

But it concerns me that in order to short this, I need to set it up in a private deal. If I want to short a stock, I log in to a simple system and short it. How come this doesn't exist in the Bitcoin world, and if it did exist, what do you think would happen to the price in the short-term, mid-term, long-term?

Sounds good.

Unfortunately, the uncertainty in regulation makes setting up proper financial services a non-starter right now. If FinCEN says you have to tap-dance X, Y, and Z to provide margin accounts, you're fucked if you can't do them. It's sad, but a necessary evil when so many banks have politicians in their pockets. Just look at the idiotic stuff being said on GFY if you need an example of why the average person is too ill-informed to go short OR long on crypto-currency.

[SomeCreep]

There will never be such a thing as a global currency, at least not for a long long time. Countries use their currencies to control every aspect of their economy, including the unemployment rate, inflation, and interest rates. A global currency would mean ceding power to a free market. And there's no way the world will agree to that, especially Russia, China, North Korea, and the Middle East.

[Biggy]

Originally Posted by edgeprod

Sounds good.

Unfortunately, the uncertainty in regulation makes setting up proper financial services a non-starter right now. If FinCEN says you have to tap-dance X, Y, and Z to provide margin accounts, you're fucked if you can't do them. It's sad, but a necessary evil when so many banks have politicians in their pockets. Just look at the idiotic stuff being said on GFY if you need an example of why the average person is too ill-informed to go short OR long on crypto-currency.

Yeah. The side effect of that is, what % of people involved in BTC are actually using it for transactions vs doing some sort of currency speculation on it. Based upon everywhere I read, most of the activity is about betting ON Bitcoin.

Except, you can only bet it goes up!!! You can't actually bet on it going down, all you can do is stay in your home currency and opt out of Bitcoin. Seems like that's an unfair advantage to the upside. And the people who have already bought in, obviously have already initiated a long position.

[Konda]

The principle of bitcoin is peer to peer without 'middle men' (eg banks). You control your wallet and you decide how secure you want it to be.

The problem is that that is too complicated for the masses (+ people are lazy). So people leave their coins in online wallets and at online exchange services, even though it's highly advised against. Lots of online wallets and exchange systems have disappeared, so why would anyone leave their coins there.

Would you save your real-life money at a random guy's house in your street just because he has a save at his place? No. So why would you do the online equivalent of that.

The other problem with bitcion is that it attracted so many speculators. Those people didn't see it as a useful currency, something that could change the future of online payments, but instead they saw it as a get rich quick scheme which created a bubble which made it pretty much useless as an actual currency.

Both things proof the stupidity of the masses and it also clearly shows us that things need to be regulated. No matter how good the basic idea is, people are just too stupid and that's why everything in this world is regulated.

[Sin_Vraal]

Bit coin does exactly what its supposed to do.

the problem is that its a transactional currency. nobody prices anything in just 'BTC'

thats b/c you price your goods in us dollars, then convert to BTC. this means the real value for bit coin should be 1:1 dollar.

now, if BTC had its own economy... like for instance everyone said, to hire a programmer, its 1BTC / hour, or drugs cost 1 BTC / gram or whatever, then Bitcoin would have a true value, just like any other currency. but we dont price things in btc, they are priced in dollars. and converted.

Think about it, when you go to starbucks in a foreign country, the cost of starbucks doesnt change according to inflation (unless you live in a place with no domestic economy)

the value of bitcoin are thus:
1) a way to buy illegal things that regular currency cannot buy (easily, or safely),
2)a way to hide money

these lead to small multiplier in the value of 1BTC over a USD. but we are talking 30% tops, otherwise you'd just pay taxes or launder your cash etc,

so number 1, BE THANKFUL that you can buy things easily in BTC like drugs, b/c every currency needs something that you can buy that is more easily acquired with it. that means bit coin will ALWAYS have value (just not the crazy numbers of today)

number 2, PRAY people start pricing things in terms of bitcoin, and not dollar, then the currency will have a real value.


EDIT: oh ya, my point... any idiot who lost money and is complaining should realize exactly what it is bitcoin is, and does, and should stop bitching, b/c really they are just currency trading with the hope that their crypto will go up, contributing to the bubble in the first place.

[freecartoonporn]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

[AmeliaG]

Originally Posted by Sin_Vraal

Bit coin does exactly what its supposed to do.

the problem is that its a transactional currency. nobody prices anything in just 'BTC'

thats b/c you price your goods in us dollars, then convert to BTC. this means the real value for bit coin should be 1:1 dollar.

now, if BTC had its own economy... like for instance everyone said, to hire a programmer, its 1BTC / hour, or drugs cost 1 BTC / gram or whatever, then Bitcoin would have a true value, just like any other currency. but we dont price things in btc, they are priced in dollars. and converted.

Think about it, when you go to starbucks in a foreign country, the cost of starbucks doesnt change according to inflation (unless you live in a place with no domestic economy)

the value of bitcoin are thus:
1) a way to buy illegal things that regular currency cannot buy (easily, or safely),
2)a way to hide money

these lead to small multiplier in the value of 1BTC over a USD. but we are talking 30% tops, otherwise you'd just pay taxes or launder your cash etc,

so number 1, BE THANKFUL that you can buy things easily in BTC like drugs, b/c every currency needs something that you can buy that is more easily acquired with it. that means bit coin will ALWAYS have value (just not the crazy numbers of today)

number 2, PRAY people start pricing things in terms of bitcoin, and not dollar, then the currency will have a real value.


EDIT: oh ya, my point... any idiot who lost money and is complaining should realize exactly what it is bitcoin is, and does, and should stop bitching, b/c really they are just currency trading with the hope that their crypto will go up, contributing to the bubble in the first place.

I set BTC prices for site memberships and I don't go adjusting them willy-nilly with every currency exchange fluctuation.

[jscott]

I've been paying people/friends in bitcoins, and receiving loan money in bitcoins and omfg I LOVE IT!

Bitcoin will not be going anywhere anytime soon, except growing more and more strong. The feeling of sending/receiving any amounts (small and big) to friends or people who owe me, or I owe them, is so damn nice. $0 paid towards bank and fees, that is worth having around wouldn't you say?

Biggy, also I want to point out you are wrong about "bitcoin is only going down since the $1200 days", it is up and down always, just like any currency, look at how it rebounded after the mtgox failure, if you don't see anything positive from that rebound then I think you are covering your eyes and ears.

[blackmonsters]

Originally Posted by Biggy

If google can create driverless cars, it can create a better system of Bitcoin that copies over the ideologies of what makes BTC attractive to people.

They proved that by copying Facebook ideologies over to g+ right?