This is why I now think that the US needs to go to the UK mode health care system...

[sperbonzo]

Having lived for four years under the NHS, I can tell you that I am not shocked by this story... I knew people who waited for years to start cancer treatments.

The irony is kind of delicious, in a sad kind of way...


A former NHS director died after waiting for nine months for an operation - at her own hospital.

Margaret Hutchon, a former mayor, had been waiting since last June for a follow-up stomach operation at Broomfield Hospital in Chelmsford, Essex.

But her appointments to go under the knife were cancelled four times and she barely regained consciousness after finally having surgery.

Her devastated husband, Jim, is now demanding answers from Mid Essex Hospital Services NHS Trust - the organisation where his wife had served as a non-executive member of the board of directors.

He said: 'I don't really know why she died. I did not get a reason from the hospital. We all want to know for closure. She got weaker and weaker as she waited and operations were put off.'

Mr Hutchon, of Great Baddow, Essex, said his wife, 72, had initially undergone major stomach surgery last June but the follow up procedures were repeatedly abandoned.

The former mayor remained at the hospital for months but her family feared she was becoming institutionalised and decided to bring her home until an operation was a certainty.

Broomfield Hospital
Margaret Hutchon waited nine months for an operation at Broomfield Hospital in Chelmsford where she was a non-executive director
Mr Hutchon, 71, said: 'The case has been referred to the coroner because of the long time it has taken. In some ways, I would like the coroner to order a post mortem.'

The pensioner said his wife had been left very weak before her operation because she had been unable to take in nutrients.

'From July to October there was talk of another operation and then between November and December there were three or four postponements and she was becoming so institutionalised we decided to get her home until an operation was certain.

'It was a blessing because although neither of is could have guessed it - it gave us a last month together.

'Nevertheless, she was unable to take proper nourishment and went into the operation on the better side of a low state - she was very weak.'

Mrs Hutchon was well known and respected after serving in local government for the past 30 years and she became mayor of Chelmsford in 2006.

Mike Mackrory, a fellow Liberal Democrat councillor, said: We were all stunned to hear she had died after the operation. There were constant delays she had to endure before surgery.

'We were given the very sad news and as word spread it threw a pall over the civic dinner. Margaret was much loved and respected in this town.'

A spokesman for Broomfield Hospital said it could not comment on individual cases


://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1371861/NHS-director-dies-operation-cancelled-times-hospital.html


Oh the irony!!!








.

[Paul Markham]

Sad story. The UK NHS is under huge pressure with supplying everyone with care. There needs to be more paid into the system to improve it.

At 72, I suspect she wasn't at the top of the list.

In the US more die because of refusal by Insurance companies and Medicare.

New study finds 45,000 deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage | Harvard Gazette

Facts on Deaths Due to Lack of Health Insurance in US

Forbes Welcome

Because Fox Asked, Here Are Examples Of People Who Were Denied Health Care | Research | Media Matters for America

6. Health Care Restrictions Cost Thousands of Lives in US – Top 25 of 2011

[pimpmaster9000]

Originally Posted by sperbonzo

Oh the irony!!!

you guys still rank with cuba

but ill give you this, if you are very very rich in the USA you can get operated on just like any other very very rich person anywhere else in the world

[wehateporn]

The NHS is being deliberately starved of cash, so as they can eventually force people over to a US style system which is far more profitable

[Barry-xlovecam]

There has to be made available supplemental and catastrophic insurance policies in addition to a limited universal healthcare scheme.

Life is like a shit sandwich -- the more bread you have the less shit you need to eat in life

[rogueteens]

Originally Posted by wehateporn

The NHS is being deliberately starved of cash, so as they can eventually force people over to a US style system which is far more profitable

its being starved of cash by not only paying for free British health care but also totally free care from every tom, dick or harry from where-ever flying in just for treatment (let alone the 2 million+ migrants getting their free care)

[Barry-xlovecam]

My single person high deductible medical (healthcare) policy is 17% of the median income of a single person in the USA.

(460*12)/32140
.17174859987554449284

It is high because of my age and luckily I make more than the median income.

But 17% is really fucked up.
This is why even healthcare of private policy insured patients is being restricted.

The median income of healthcare workers; from housekeeping personnel to speciality physicians and insurance executives is maybe over $75K (or more?) per year with mandatory and employer offered benefits as compared to $40K maybe with benefits for the average worker.

Healthcare has always been expensive but with today's expectations it's breaking the consumer's bank account. I read last night that the average person that files for bankruptcy has near $18K in past due medical bills. That doesn't seem that much to overcome to me but if you are just getting by that may be the ''straw that break's the camels back.''

The whole healthcare industry is fucked up. It is not delivering a product that the majority in society can afford. We are not talking new furniture or new cars -- we are talking about something, healthcare, whose purchase when put off, or delayed, may cause death.

[Barry-xlovecam]

There is no free healthcare anywhere. Healthcare personnel get salaries and the government pays them with your tax money in the UK or anywhere that has a universal healthcare ''program.''
Or, the government prints money and causes inflation and currency devaluation -- that is a form of tax (or servitude too).

It is only free if you pay no taxes and in the UK that includes VAT tax.

[woj]

you guys obviously fail to see the point...

the story illustrates that in the UK you can do everything "right" in life... study hard, work hard, always give 110%, maybe even have some good luck on the way, etc... and yet your life will be at a mercy of some government bureaucrat, who will decide if and when you can have a life saving operation, and in effect he/she will decide when you should die...

[Barry-xlovecam]

Originally Posted by woj

[a]nd yet your life will be at a mercy of some government bureaucrat, who will decide if and when you can have a life saving operation, and in effect will decide when you should die...

Insurance companies pull the same sort of games all the time to avoid paying claims.

''We won't pay because that treatment is not approved'' the insurer says.

It's all about money. You could have gotten that cancer treatment if you had the money to pay.

That is not a statement of an equitable solution -- that is a statement of fact only.

[beerptrol]

Originally Posted by woj

you guys obviously fail to see the point...

the story illustrates that in the UK you can do everything "right" in life... study hard, work hard, always give 110%, maybe even have some good luck on the way, etc... and yet your life will be at a mercy of some government bureaucrat, who will decide if and when you can have a life saving operation, and in effect he/she will decide when you should die...

As opposed to some insurance company refusing medical services. You can swap UK with USA and government bureacrat with insurance company because the same shit happens here

[woj]

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

Insurance companies pull the same sort of games all the time to avoid paying claims.

''We won't pay because that treatment is not approved'' the insurer says.

It's all about money. You could have gotten that cancer treatment if you had the money to pay.

That is not a statement of an equitable solution -- that is a statement of fact only.

It's very unusual for insurance company to deny paying for generally accepted medical treatment... most of the cases you hear about are about cutting edge/experimental treatments that are not generally accepted by the medical profession... OR patients with pre-existing conditions that try to trick insurance company into paying for treatment of those conditions...

and besides, I don't think in UK there is an option of "I have some extra $$ in my retirement account, lets proceed with this 'unapproved' treatment, I'll pay for it"... is there?

[Barry-xlovecam]

I don't know for fact but you can usually buy treatment somewhere -- get on a train or plane.

A pre-existing condition denial is illegal under the ACA (Obamacare) so that issue is moot.

You will die without this experimental treatment -- OK doc I'll crawl off and die or like a good Indian. I go to sit in the Happy Hunting Grounds 'till I draw my last breath -- today is a good day to die. That said, there should be a reasonable success rate in a procedure -- who is to decide; A government technocrat or a money-profit motivated insurance company's policy? What is worse?

In the end it is all about the money.

[woj]

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

I don't know for fact but you can usually buy treatment somewhere -- get on a train or plane.

yea, you are 72 years old and weak... and so you hop on a plane to another country to get medical treatment... sounds very realistic...

and what are you complaining about anyway? what's stopping you from doing the same? Mexico isn't very far and medical care over there is dirt cheap...

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

A pre-existing condition denial is illegal under the ACA (Obamacare) so that issue is moot.

You will die without this experimental treatment -- OK doc I'll crawl off and die or like a good Indian. I go to sit in the Happy Hunting Grounds 'till I draw my last breath -- today is a good day to die. That said, there should be a reasonable success rate in a procedure -- who is to decide; A government technocrat or a money-profit motivated insurance company's policy? What is worse?

In the end it is all about the money.

critical difference is that in the UK NHS decides what treatment you will get, cause as far as I know, you can't say "I prefer the new experimental treatment, I'll pay for it, lets start tomorrow...".... so over there some bureaucrat 100% without any doubt decides your fate, like the OPs story illustrates....

in the US, in some cases insurance company may decide if they will pay for it... you then have an option to choose if you want the insurance company to pay for generally accepted medical treatment or if you want to invest your own $$ to get possibly better experimental treatment... so your fate is in your hands, not in hands of some bureaucrat...

I guess it's a matter of preference, but I don't see how having fewer options could possibly be better...

[Barry-xlovecam]

IDK. My uncle was about 72 when he got sick with pancreatic cancer and left his vacation home in Florida in an air ambulance to be treated at the Mayo Clinic then flew in an air ambulance home to Michigan to die.

My Uncle Marty owned 5 retail furniture stores -- he was not a poor man. Had he been of more modest means maybe he would have died in a hospice in Miami. In the end, that made no difference anyway -- but he felt there was a chance or maybe my aunt and his kids did? IDK ...

People spend what money they can to keep on living -- it is hard to accept the end when you feel there is a chance and you have the money to pay for it.

If you pay all of your life for insurance and Medicare what would you expect? Same with high taxes for ''free'' universal healthcare.

Sorry buddy -- see you on the other side?
You are not being realistic.
You will either spend what you have or go to the Happy Hunting Grounds to die. Door 1 or Door 2.

You can pay for private treatment in the Netherlands or in Switzerland I think -- the distances are about the same as my uncle's journey. He had the money to pay -- that is the difference -- but most people, when near the end, will do what they can to survive.

[ianmoone332000]

Problem with out nhs is anyone can use it. When the miss was having our last child, she was practically in labour in the waiting room because there was no bed for her. I of course blew my top at one of the midwives who then told me it was because of the amount of immigrants. They basically fly in , give birth then fly home a day or 2 later. While my miss who was in both Afghan and Iraq with the navy was being shamed screaming in pain in front of a bunch of strangers in the waiting room. True story

[Barry-xlovecam]

So, your only choices are bad ones.

1. Pay more taxes to support adequate NHS services.
2. Deport non-working and tax paying immigrants from the UK -- you cannot under the "British Commonwealth" agreements? Indians, Pakistanis, Jamacians, etc ...
3. Let the above stated immigrants die in the streets.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by woj

you guys obviously fail to see the point...

the story illustrates that in the UK you can do everything "right" in life... study hard, work hard, always give 110%, maybe even have some good luck on the way, etc... and yet your life will be at a mercy of some government bureaucrat, who will decide if and when you can have a life saving operation, and in effect he/she will decide when you should die...

He's right but misses the difference.

The system the US has results in with more deaths. In the UK this is so shocking it made the newspapers. In the US it's common.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

Insurance companies pull the same sort of games all the time to avoid paying claims.

''We won't pay because that treatment is not approved'' the insurer says.

It's all about money. You could have gotten that cancer treatment if you had the money to pay.

That is not a statement of an equitable solution -- that is a statement of fact only.

I suspect in this case she was put back so treatment was given to a younger person. Because the Government refuses to raise the Health Insurance Tax.

If I had got cancer in the US, my insurance company would refuse to treat me with the experimental American drug. The Czech Health Service used.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by woj

It's very unusual for insurance company to deny paying for generally accepted medical treatment... most of the cases you hear about are about cutting edge/experimental treatments that are not generally accepted by the medical profession... OR patients with pre-existing conditions that try to trick insurance company into paying for treatment of those conditions...

and besides, I don't think in UK there is an option of "I have some extra $$ in my retirement account, lets proceed with this 'unapproved' treatment, I'll pay for it"... is there?

https://www.publicintegrity.org/2014...use-pay-claims

Why Do Insurance Companies Refuse to Pay Claims?

The death panels� are already here - Salon.com

Death Drugs Cause Uproar in Oregon - ABC News

Accidental Death Becomes Suicide When Insurers Dodge Payouts - Bloomberg



The problem is this is out of the hands of the people. The people controlling HealthCare in the US are companies accountants and CEOs. So even after a President promises to change it. He can't.

This will be Trump's nightmare should he ever get elected.

Should decisions like this be left to lobbyists and bought politicians or given to the people to decide in a referendum?

[12clicks]

All of these idiot schemes to have someone else pay for your healthcare eventually fail.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

So, your only choices are bad ones.

1. Pay more taxes to support adequate NHS services.
2. Deport non-working and tax paying immigrants from the UK -- you cannot under the "British Commonwealth" agreements? Indians, Pakistanis, Jamacians, etc ...
3. Let the above stated immigrants die in the streets.

You missed out the one of not giving migrants benefits. Which is what the UK wants to do but the EU refuses. You miss the point that 450 million EU citizens are free to walk into the UK and demand medical attention.

Of course paying more is an option. That would lose seats to UKIP who are very strict about migration.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

All of these idiot schemes to have someone else pay for your healthcare eventually fail.

Where do you get the "someone else pays" part? We pay for it via taxes. And we pay less than you do and it covers everyone.

Are you in favour of paying more, risk not getting covered because of a company paper pusher found a loophole and it not covering everyone?

And should you fall off a roof and not work so unable to afford to pay insurance. Having to apply to a Medicare Board to agree you're worth saving?

I never thought you that dumb.

[klinton]

its basically the same everywhere in the world with public health system
too many patients, not enough money and doctors

[woj]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Where do you get the "someone else pays" part? We pay for it via taxes. And we pay less than you do and it covers everyone.

Are you in favour of paying more, risk not getting covered because of a company paper pusher found a loophole and it not covering everyone?

And should you fall off a roof and not work so unable to afford to pay insurance. Having to apply to a Medicare Board to agree you're worth saving?

I never thought you that dumb.

you pay for it via taxes, but you don't pay for your own healthcare, the healthcare costs are shared among everyone...

so for example your neighbor is morbidly obese, leads sedentary lifestyle, smokes 2 packs per day, and drinks a 12 pack of beer per day, and as a result his healthcare costs are 3x of yours, by sharing healthcare costs with him (like you do in the UK) you would be subsidizing his poor lifetime choices...

when viewing from his point of view, there isn't much incentive to improve his health, his healthcare might cost $5k/month, but who cares? he isn't paying for it, so incentive to improve his health is reduced...

so you get fucked, and he doesn't have much incentive to improve his health.... lose-lose for everyone involved...

[MK Ultra]

Any in the US who are in favor of a government takeover of the entire healthcare system obviously haven't been paying attention to what's been going on with the VA the last few years.

[Barry-xlovecam]

Most of you don't even have a dog in the fight.

Thread topic: This is why I now think that the US needs to go to the UK mode health care system... <sarcasm>

Other than anyone living in the UK or the US.

[shiraz9944]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

He's right but misses the difference.

The system the US has results in with more deaths. In the UK this is so shocking it made the newspapers. In the US it's common.

you realize there is a slight population difference between England and the USA?

[12clicks]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Where do you get the "someone else pays" part? We pay for it via taxes. And we pay less than you do and it covers everyone.

Are you in favour of paying more, risk not getting covered because of a company paper pusher found a loophole and it not covering everyone?

And should you fall off a roof and not work so unable to afford to pay insurance. Having to apply to a Medicare Board to agree you're worth saving?

I never thought you that dumb.

Please loser,
You haven't paid enough in taxes to EVER cover the cost of your medical coverage.
So yeah, someone else IS paying to keep your worthless ass alive.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by woj

you pay for it via taxes, but you don't pay for your own healthcare, the healthcare costs are shared among everyone...

so for example your neighbor is morbidly obese, leads sedentary lifestyle, smokes 2 packs per day, and drinks a 12 pack of beer per day, and as a result his healthcare costs are 3x of yours, by sharing healthcare costs with him (like you do in the UK) you would be subsidizing his poor lifetime choices...

when viewing from his point of view, there isn't much incentive to improve his health, his healthcare might cost $5k/month, but who cares? he isn't paying for it, so incentive to improve his health is reduced...

so you get fucked, and he doesn't have much incentive to improve his health.... lose-lose for everyone involved...

Assuming my neighbour and I are on the same wage, he pays a lot more in taxes than I do. do the research. IMO I think he should pay more by consuming the products that make him less healthy.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by MK Ultra

Any in the US who are in favor of a government takeover of the entire healthcare system obviously haven't been paying attention to what's been going on with the VA the last few years.

With a National Health Service funded by taxing wages. The problem would still remain. Hospitals level of charges is the problem. How does that affect the VA program?

Obama said a Government run Insurance Scheme was never going to get through. Why is that, when it's obviously going to be better and cheaper. If Americans can't do it better, bring in Brits or Indians who can.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by shiraz9944

you realize there is a slight population difference between England and the USA?

Yes and it still shows the US is very bad.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

Please loser,
You haven't paid enough in taxes to EVER cover the cost of your medical coverage.
So yeah, someone else IS paying to keep your worthless ass alive.

Get back to work.

[NewNick]

Stoopid thread.

No info why the ops were cancelled ? Could have been medical reasons etc.

Fools salivating over a Daily Mail special written to feed the bozos.

[Barry-xlovecam]

Public healthcare exists in the USA it is called Medicare and Medicaid.

Medicare and Medicaid reimbursement rates for all medical services are maybe 35% of the top published rate, private payer insurance maybe 50% of the top published rate.

Public healthcare as it exists in the USA today is highly subsidized by private insurance reimbursement rates.

If there was a Medicare type healthcare scheme for all, taxes would have to go up to pay for it -- but the Insurance companies, as primary underwriters of healthcare, would be out of business. Maybe, there might be "Americare1", Medicare for the retired and Medicaid for the public assistance client only again. Americare1 would have to be at the expense of a new 10% to 12% payroll or SE tax increase.

No matter what happens: healthcare is not going to cost much less in real terms. The government is in a bully pulpit negotiation position when they have a monopoly, as they do with with Medicare and Medicaid now. The reimbursement rate is lower but the services are downgraded also.

There will be a place for supplemental healthcare umbrella insurance for those that can afford the premiums. My mother is 91 and has Blue Cross as part of widow's pensioner survivors benefits. She gets first class treatment and not the Medicare hurry up and wait treatment. My stepfather was an auditor for the local county government. I would have to pay my own ticket. Still, it is excess cost insurance, coordinated benefits in insurance lingo so it's not like you had no Medicare base payment. You pay into Medicare all of you working years -- so it is not free.

[pimpmaster9000]

Originally Posted by klinton

its basically the same everywhere in the world with public health system
too many patients, not enough money and doctors

no its not...

you see medicine in most non western countries has little to do with money and is very affordable, and education is free so there are lots of doctors, even for export...

you will of course be fed cherry picked examples by your own media, but public health systems, for the most part, do just fine...3rd world shit holes have the same equipment you guys do and make the same medicine...only much much cheaper...

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

There needs to be more paid into the system to improve it.

yup and brining in uneducated unskilled Arabs that are hostile as fuck will sure put money in the system

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by crucifissio

no its not...

3rd world shit holes have the same equipment you guys do and make the same medicine...only much much cheaper...

first off you're a total dumbass... seriously do some research...

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by ianmoone332000

Problem with out nhs is anyone can use it. When the miss was having our last child, she was practically in labour in the waiting room because there was no bed for her. I of course blew my top at one of the midwives who then told me it was because of the amount of immigrants. They basically fly in , give birth then fly home a day or 2 later. While my miss who was in both Afghan and Iraq with the navy was being shamed screaming in pain in front of a bunch of strangers in the waiting room. True story

well hopefully next time you'll be born stupid with a tan and have a free ride for life!

[Barry-xlovecam]

https://services.aamc.org/tsfreports..._of_study=2016

The cost of a Medical Doctor's education is $70K a year with housing and other expenses for 7 to 10 years.

Education is big business in the USA.

[Sunny Day]

Originally Posted by woj

It's very unusual for insurance company to deny paying for generally accepted medical treatment... most of the cases you hear about are about cutting edge/experimental treatments that are not generally accepted by the medical profession... OR patients with pre-existing conditions that try to trick insurance company into paying for treatment of those conditions...

and besides, I don't think in UK there is an option of "I have some extra $$ in my retirement account, lets proceed with this 'unapproved' treatment, I'll pay for it"... is there?

What US insurance company do you have? They do everything to deny a claim. Everything.

Oh yeah, if you have money in the UK, you get the treatment. Same as the US.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

yup and brining in uneducated unskilled Arabs that are hostile as fuck will sure put money in the system

Why only point out Arabs. This is racist. All low paid migrants take out of the system, regardless of race.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

https://services.aamc.org/tsfreports..._of_study=2016

The cost of a Medical Doctor's education is $70K a year with housing and other expenses for 7 to 10 years.

Education is big business in the USA.

This is the problem. Education beyond the basic and Healthcare are big business. Should healthcare be in the hands of boardrooms?

If US Government officials can't run it better, bring in people from other countries who can.

[pimpmaster9000]

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

first off you're a total dumbass... seriously do some research...

no you are just a been-nowhere-know-nothing american...I live in the 3rd world I know better than you do...

[klinton]

ehem yeah right. it only serves when you have emergency (heart attack and so on).
for the rest - enjoy standing in line and waiting 1-6 months for appointment with specialist or to get some specific diagnosis (the very same doctor that also has private business can give you appointment in usually 24-48 hours)

Originally Posted by crucifissio

no its not...

you see medicine in most non western countries has little to do with money and is very affordable, and education is free so there are lots of doctors, even for export...

you will of course be fed cherry picked examples by your own media, but public health systems, for the most part, do just fine...3rd world shit holes have the same equipment you guys do and make the same medicine...only much much cheaper...

[Barry-xlovecam]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

This is the problem. Education beyond the basic and Healthcare are big business. Should healthcare be in the hands of boardrooms?

If US Government officials can't run it better, bring in people from other countries who can.

Education is expensive and rationed by the ability to pay in the US higher educational system. If you want to lower healthcare costs: When a person is qualified to study medicine their education should be heavily subsidised.

My cousin is an MD in a speciality, Dermatology -- Cosmetic Surgery, his education at a state funded university cost him (his father had the money to pay) a small fortune. I have another 2 cousins in NYC that studied medicine in Italy -- they are MD Ophthalmologists. They could not get into medical school in the USA -- no space.

If someone has the intelligence and aptitude to be in medical school they should be there regardless of their finances.