Fact: Even with INCREASED minimum wages, HIRING continues to GROW

[$5 submissions]

$15 wage law has little impact on Seattle?s thriving labor market, report suggests | The Seattle Times

Kinda flies in the face of conventional economic theory espoused by Milton Friedman and others

[Sly]

Seattle, a major city that was already growing, can hardly be used as a litmus test for national policy.

[$5 submissions]

Originally Posted by Sly

Seattle, a major city that was already growing, can hardly be used as a litmus test for national policy.

Okay, you're claiming a statistical representation logical error. Please show a more REPRESENTATIVE sample.

[Klen]

There is nothing spectacular in increasing minimum wage, you just need to adjust prices for everything and problem solved, except in case of factory workers where increase of minimum wage can cause factory to be unprofitable.

[Sly]

Originally Posted by $5 submissions

Okay, you're claiming a statistical representation logical error. Please show a more REPRESENTATIVE sample.

There isn't one because it hasn't been done.

Using Seattle as an example of something working and saying it would work across the nation is not much different than using San Francisco as an example for house prices and saying a house in Oklahoma should be worth the same amount of money.

The writer of the article and the report itself point this out several times. Seattle had a unique economy which contributed to the success.

[crockett]

Originally Posted by $5 submissions

$15 wage law has little impact on Seattle?s thriving labor market, report suggests | The Seattle Times

Kinda flies in the face of conventional economic theory espoused by Milton Friedman and others

Please don't confuse "conventional" with ideology. Anyone with half a brain understands the more people making money means more people spending money which means growing economy. It just has to grow at a healthy pace.

The only people who like to pretend this doesn't work are right wing bats who just want you to believe trickle down economics works. What is happening in Seattle "IS" conventional economic theory at play..

[Klen]

Originally Posted by Sly

There isn't one because it hasn't been done.

Using Seattle as an example of something working and saying it would work across the nation is not much different than using San Francisco as an example for house prices and saying a house in Oklahoma should be worth the same amount of money.

The writer of the article and the report itself point this out several times. Seattle had a unique economy which contributed to the success.

Here we often complain how western countries have much better standard and salaries up to 10x more, but the reason why is that is because western countries are service/real estate based hence the difference, only food price in store is same. So for example hairdresser here cost 5$ while in Austria would cost 50$.

[$5 submissions]

Originally Posted by KlenTelaris

There is nothing spectacular in increasing minimum wage, you just need to adjust prices for everything and problem solved, except in case of factory workers where increase of minimum wage can cause factory to be unprofitable.

You're saying that the SERVICE and MANUFACTURING sectors are SO DIFFERENT that they react differently from increased wages? Which differences account for the difference in effect?

[crockett]

Originally Posted by Sly

Seattle, a major city that was already growing, can hardly be used as a litmus test for national policy.

Oh please all the GFY right wing bats were raging about it and telling us all how Seattle was going to fail and businesses would run away screaming.. All the typical Doom & Gloom BS because they will never admit their failed trickle down ideology and attack on the middle class is what's really destroying this country..

[$5 submissions]

Originally Posted by crockett

What is happening in Seattle "IS" conventional economic theory at play..

Did you read the article?

[crockett]

Originally Posted by $5 submissions

Did you read the article?

I don't need to read an article, the basic fact is they raised min wage to $15/hr and jobs did not run away... I don't need need to read an article of excuses as to why the doom & gloom didn't happen.. I understand basic economy.

More money in the hands of more people equals more spending which equals more economy. It's very simple. but as always things must be kept in check.. $15/hr is sustainable but trying to raise min wage to $30 would not for example. Wages "HAVE" to be kept in check with inflation and that's what they did..

The reason our middle class is shrinking is because wages have not kept up with inflation and people are incurring more debt as a result. More debt is good for the 1% but not good for growing the economy or the middle class.

One half of our govt understands this, the other half pretends not to because they only care about the 1%..

[$5 submissions]

Originally Posted by crockett

I don't need to read...

[mineistaken]

How do you know what would have happened without the increase? Maybe twice as fast growth in hiring? Maybe tripple as fast?

You can not draw conclusions like that because of the fact you do not know what would have happened otherwise.

Like Sly said - other things may offset negative impact of pay increase and total result could still be positive. But just because other reasons offset it.

[crockett]

Originally Posted by mineistaken

How do you know what would have happened without the increase? Maybe twice as fast growth in hiring? Maybe tripple as fast?

You can not draw conclusions like that because of the fact you do not know what would have happened otherwise.

Like Sly said - other things may offset negative impact of pay increase and total result could still be positive. But just because other reasons offset it.

You are just making excuses because you were one of the doom and gloomers chanting about how business would run away.

It didn't, because they simply raised the min wage to match current inflation.

[Bladewire]

Originally Posted by crockett

You are just making excuses because you were one of the doom and gloomers chanting about how business would run away.

It didn't, because they simply raised the min wage to match current inflation.

They should raise social security income yearly with inflation as well. All the extra money would be paid on retirees children / grandchildren etc. The cost of living gap and social security payments is huge.

[mineistaken]

Originally Posted by crockett

You are just making excuses because you were one of the doom and gloomers chanting about how business would run away.

It didn't, because they simply raised the min wage to match current inflation.

First, they raised it WAAAAYYYYYYY more than inflation, secondly how do you know if businesses did not flee to surrounding counties or basiocally rest of the country where that wage was not increased?

[crockett]

Originally Posted by mineistaken

First, they raised it WAAAAYYYYYYY more than inflation, secondly how do you know if businesses did not flee to surrounding counties or basiocally rest of the country where that wage was not increased?

No it's not.. It's literally right in the middle of both high and low estimates. The low would be $12/hr the high being $21. the difference comes down to how it's calculated. They set the min to be right in the middle of the high/low and also used cost of living in that city to determine it.

The fact that the economy in that city is doing just fine shows they picked a reasonable rate.

[Rochard]

Did anyone read the article? It seems the minimum wage has little impact there. Most of the jobs are high tech and construction, and most jobs paid over $15 an hour already.

From the article itself:

Much of that success, though, can be attributed to trends separate from the minimum-wage law itself, such as the growth of Seattle?s tech sector and its construction boom, according to a new report that University of Washington researchers presented to the City Council on Monday.

[Bladewire]

Originally Posted by crockett

No it's not.. It's literally right in the middle of both high and low estimates. The low would be $12/hr the high being $21. the difference comes down to how it's calculated. They set the min to be right in the middle of the high/low and also used cost of living in that city to determine it.

The fact that the economy in that city is doing just fine shows they picked a reasonable rate.

When I lived in Australia the minimum wage was $17 an hour, $600 a week roughly, and rent was dirt cheap as was food. That was the MINIMUM wage. I asked this waitress at a hole in the wall cafe how much she made and she got $20 an hour.

America has been far behind the times internationally for 20 or so years.

Over the 5 year's I lived there, EVERYONE I met over 30 OWNED an apartment they rented out and OWNED a home they lived in, most owned recreational boats. These were not rich people these were people with one full time job. This is why i, as an American, went through the citizenship process in Australia

[baddog]

Originally Posted by crockett

You are just making excuses because you were one of the doom and gloomers chanting about how business would run away.

It didn't, because they simply raised the min wage to match current inflation.

You didn't read the article.

[baddog]

You guys realize they are not at $15 yet, right?

[baddog]

Originally Posted by Rochard

Did anyone read the article? It seems the minimum wage has little impact there. Most of the jobs are high tech and construction, and most jobs paid over $15 an hour already.

From the article itself:

Much of that success, though, can be attributed to trends separate from the minimum-wage law itself, such as the growth of Seattle?s tech sector and its construction boom, according to a new report that University of Washington researchers presented to the City Council on Monday.

Obviously they didn't.

[Klen]

Originally Posted by $5 submissions

You're saying that the SERVICE and MANUFACTURING sectors are SO DIFFERENT that they react differently from increased wages? Which differences account for the difference in effect?

Exactly. If you produce let say spoons, you have fixed cost to make them and fixed profit and if constant of fixed cost is changed, then entire bussiness is in danger. Tho, you could eventually increase profit if you make those spoons to look pretty like apple did it with phones, or if you put a fancy name on it like Dr.dre did it, but those are exceptions, not rule.

While as service provider, you can always provide better service and always find a clientele with different purchase power. For example, i remember how you called yourself once a "flee market seo seller" but i am sure you can raise your prices 10x more and still find clients.

[Barry-xlovecam]

Sorry if you have to work for minimum wage rates but look what states have the lowest wage rates ...

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...e-by-us-state/ <chart

^^ maybe, manufacturing spoons are too low of value added to be made domestically at a livable wage?

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by crockett

Please don't confuse "conventional" with ideology. Anyone with half a brain understands the more people making money means more people spending money which means growing economy. It just has to grow at a healthy pace.

The only people who like to pretend this doesn't work are right wing bats who just want you to believe trickle down economics works. What is happening in Seattle "IS" conventional economic theory at play..

If trickle down worked. Family incomes would be on the rise over more percentile than the top 20%.

Your mistake is ion thinking "the more people making money means more people spending money". Not if a worker on $40 an hour gets made redundant and goes on to get a job at $15 an hour. Which has been happening for the last 20 years.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by crockett

I don't need to read an article, the basic fact is they raised min wage to $15/hr and jobs did not run away... I don't need need to read an article of excuses as to why the doom & gloom didn't happen.. I understand basic economy.

More money in the hands of more people equals more spending which equals more economy. It's very simple. but as always things must be kept in check.. $15/hr is sustainable but trying to raise min wage to $30 would not for example. Wages "HAVE" to be kept in check with inflation and that's what they did..

The reason our middle class is shrinking is because wages have not kept up with inflation and people are incurring more debt as a result. More debt is good for the 1% but not good for growing the economy or the middle class.

One half of our govt understands this, the other half pretends not to because they only care about the 1%..

But it hasn't worked like that over the last 20 years. more money has been flowing into the hands of fewer people all the time.

As you say the middle class is struggling, the working class are in a bad way and some are sunk without Government support.

The problem comes when a $30 an hour job is replaced by a $15 an hour job. And that;s the trend.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by KlenTelaris

Exactly. If you produce let say spoons, you have fixed cost to make them and fixed profit and if constant of fixed cost is changed, then entire bussiness is in danger. Tho, you could eventually increase profit if you make those spoons to look pretty like apple did it with phones, or if you put a fancy name on it like Dr.dre did it, but those are exceptions, not rule.

While as service provider, you can always provide better service and always find a clientele with different purchase power. For example, i remember how you called yourself once a "flee market seo seller" but i am sure you can raise your prices 10x more and still find clients.

The real problem is when the spoon maker decides to move to China. Look at the decline of US production and the growth of China's.

Where are Apple Phones made? Or most makes of electrical gadgets.

[crockett]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

If trickle down worked. Family incomes would be on the rise over more percentile than the top 20%.

Your mistake is ion thinking "the more people making money means more people spending money". Not if a worker on $40 an hour gets made redundant and goes on to get a job at $15 an hour. Which has been happening for the last 20 years.

But that's not what this is about. This is about that worker being able to be paid a livable wage if he loses his $40/hr job.

Don't try to make this about something else because you know the ideology you want ti support is a failure.

[crockett]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

But it hasn't worked like that over the last 20 years. more money has been flowing into the hands of fewer people all the time.

As you say the middle class is struggling, the working class are in a bad way and some are sunk without Government support.

The problem comes when a $30 an hour job is replaced by a $15 an hour job. And that;s the trend.

It hasn't worked like that because it became more important to pay CEOS and shareholders all the corporate profits at the expense of the workers. In a quest to keep pushing constant profits for shareholders, wages were reduced and then the jobs shipped overseas so wages could be reduced even more.

This came because of failed trickle down economics.. Reagan was the first to open the doors to China and everyone since has left them open.

Corporations like trickle down because they benifit. The average worker gets fucked though and that's where the govt should be trying to protect them.

[imabro]

Originally Posted by crockett

But that's not what this is about. This is about that worker being able to be paid a livable wage if he loses his $40/hr job.

Don't try to make this about something else because you know the ideology you want ti support is a failure.

Not sure I understand that comment; is it your contention that the guy that lost his $40/hour job can pick up a $15/hour job?

[blackmonsters]

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

Sorry if you have to work for minimum wage rates but look what states have the lowest wage rates ...

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...e-by-us-state/ <chart

^^ maybe, manufacturing spoons are too low of value added to be made domestically at a livable wage?

Compare this link to your link above :

The 10 Poorest States In America - Business Insider

Do you see a correlation?

[crockett]

Originally Posted by imabro

Not sure I understand that comment; is it your contention that the guy that lost his $40/hour job can pick up a $15/hour job?

My contention is this topic is about Seattle not losing but gaining jobs after they raised min wage to $15/hr. If someone loses a $40/hr job, it has nothing to do with minimum wage being $8 or $15..

[beerptrol]

Look at Walmart, a good percentage of their employees get some kind of government assistance, while the company gets tax breaks and other government subsidies. A double whammy to tax payers

[spads]

Originally Posted by Bladewire

When I lived in Australia the minimum wage was $17 an hour, $600 a week roughly, and rent was dirt cheap as was food. That was the MINIMUM wage. I asked this waitress at a hole in the wall cafe how much she made and she got $20 an hour.

America has been far behind the times internationally for 20 or so years.

Over the 5 year's I lived there, EVERYONE I met over 30 OWNED an apartment they rented out and OWNED a home they lived in, most owned recreational boats. These were not rich people these were people with one full time job. This is why i, as an American, went through the citizenship process in Australia

False. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...ity2=Melbourne

[Bladewire]

Originally Posted by spads

False. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...ity2=Melbourne

True: Minimum wage is $17.70 now $672.70 per 38 hour week Minimum wages - Fact sheets - Fair Work Ombudsman

And the chart on the bottom of your page, on your undated data comparison, shows its more expensive to live in Seattle.

And who the fuck wants to live in overpriced rainy cold Melbourne? I why the fuck you cherry pick Seattle to compare? You need to compare to the Gold Coast, where I lived, or Bribane. Nice warm beach life & affordable living

And smart people would compare their current city with the one they're moving to, not random places

[PornDiscounts-V]

Originally Posted by crockett

Oh please all the GFY right wing bats were raging about it and telling us all how Seattle was going to fail and businesses would run away screaming.. All the typical Doom & Gloom BS because they will never admit their failed trickle down ideology and attack on the middle class is what's really destroying this country..

Exactly. Those white shirt, red hat, make a America great again idiots who were in line to vote for a billionaire like he really gives a shit about them when he's hiring foreign workers and making his Trump line products overseas don't understand that conservatives on whole don't give two shits about them and love to keep them stupid.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by crockett

But that's not what this is about. This is about that worker being able to be paid a livable wage if he loses his $40/hr job.

Don't try to make this about something else because you know the ideology you want ti support is a failure.

Are you ready to pay double for a Starbucks, Macdonalds, more taxes or any product/service relies on people earning a low wage?

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by crockett

It hasn't worked like that because it became more important to pay CEOS and shareholders all the corporate profits at the expense of the workers. In a quest to keep pushing constant profits for shareholders, wages were reduced and then the jobs shipped overseas so wages could be reduced even more.

This came because of failed trickle down economics.. Reagan was the first to open the doors to China and everyone since has left them open.

Corporations like trickle down because they benifit. The average worker gets fucked though and that's where the govt should be trying to protect them.

Now we agree. Except you didn't mention you paying more for goods made in the US.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by beerptrol

Look at Walmart, a good percentage of their employees get some kind of government assistance, while the company gets tax breaks and other government subsidies. A double whammy to tax payers

And Americans wonder why the country needs to borrow more money!!!!

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by imabro

Not sure I understand that comment; is it your contention that the guy that lost his $40/hour job can pick up a $15/hour job?

Crockett lives in a fantasy world. Where he thinks raising someone's wages, won't cost him any money.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by vvvvv

Exactly. Those white shirt, red hat, make a America great again idiots who were in line to vote for a billionaire like he really gives a shit about them when he's hiring foreign workers and making his Trump line products overseas don't understand that conservatives on whole don't give two shits about them and love to keep them stupid.

Agree. It's down to voters to stop voting for the people who have been in power and made sure the US is in decline.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by crockett

My contention is this topic is about Seattle not losing but gaining jobs after they raised min wage to $15/hr. If someone loses a $40/hr job, it has nothing to do with minimum wage being $8 or $15..

It has everything to do with the wages that replace the previous wages. to the people looking for a job.

[Barry-xlovecam]

Originally Posted by blackmonsters

Compare this link to your link above :

The 10 Poorest States In America - Business Insider

Do you see a correlation?

And I was tempted to point out their political affiliations also ...

[slapass]

Originally Posted by $5 submissions

You're saying that the SERVICE and MANUFACTURING sectors are SO DIFFERENT that they react differently from increased wages? Which differences account for the difference in effect?

Exports. Local manufacturing would be effected by imports. And non local could suffer do to the region it is importing to having lower wages.

The better idea is to do this as a nation and let the effect of inflation even it out again. What is dumber yet is it would help decrease the US debt and improve the whole situation. We just have people who don't get economics in this country and for some reason those same people become politicians.