Does anyone believe the top brass at the Pentagon didn't know about this situation?

[KRL]

Something doesn't make sense with this whole situation. Most every guy I've ever known in the military wouldl not do anything over the edge to this extreme unless he has orders or authority.

The same thing with commanders. These soldiers and commanders aren't stupid people and would not risk their careers unless they knew they were ok'd to go to this level of mistreatment on the prisoners.

And it goes all the way up the ladder so there is always a trail of authorization. Military guys are ingrained with adhering to very strict command and control guidelines.

I think this is going to explode into a revelation that this stuff was indeed authorized at the highest levels in Washington DC.

[tbabe]

I think it was a case of mob mentality taking over at the prison, each soldier trying to outdo the other to humiliate the prisoners.

[Jakke PNG]

Originally posted by tbabe
I think it was a case of mob mentality taking over at the prison, each soldier trying to outdo the other to humiliate the prisoners.

Yeah. A higher ranking guy in the prison, not a HIGH ranking officer gives an order and it's carried out.. then things get out of control. I have no difficulties seeing it. The knowledge of the incident might not have gotten out of the prison. But everyone in there knew officers and all. They should take responsibility. I'm quite sure rumsfeld and the bunch might have been unaware of it.

[KRL]

Originally posted by TeenGodFather
Yeah. A higher ranking guy in the prison, not a HIGH ranking officer gives an order and it's carried out.. then things get out of control. I have no difficulties seeing it. The knowledge of the incident might not have gotten out of the prison. But everyone in there knew officers and all. They should take responsibility. I'm quite sure rumsfeld and the bunch might have been unaware of it.

I'd agree if it was isolated to this one prison, but apparently it was happening at all the prisons.

[tbabe]

I suspect if the top brass knew about it, they would have laid an iron fist down on the soldiers, especially if they knew they were taken pics. The higher ups know this war is about PR.

[Jakke PNG]

Originally posted by KRL
I'd agree if it was isolated to this one prison, but apparently it was happening at all the prisons.

Ah.

[EscortBiz]

local level

think of it this way

everyday in america a prisoner is abused y a prison guard, what level does that come from?

[MarcS]

I can very well see how this could happen in a situation with so much psychical pressure on the soldiers.
But by now it seems to be clear that everyone in the Pentagon knew about the situation for a couple months now and they just tried to cover it up.

[JOKER]

Originally posted by KRL
Something doesn't make sense with this whole situation. Most every guy I've ever known in the military wouldl not do anything over the edge to this extreme unless he has orders or authority.

The same thing with commanders. These soldiers and commanders aren't stupid people and would not risk their careers unless they knew they were ok'd to go to this level of mistreatment on the prisoners.

And it goes all the way up the ladder so there is always a trail of authorization. Military guys are ingrained with adhering to very strict command and control guidelines.

I think this is going to explode into a revelation that this stuff was indeed authorized at the highest levels in Washington DC.

To your first comment:

The guys you know from the military are not the same men as they are in war.

Knowing someone in a non-war climate and knowing him in a war climate are 2 diff. things.


This has happened in every war and it will happen again.

When you are on a psychological and physical stress level 90% of the day you change and you do things you wouldnt do in your normal life.

Living on the edge changes humans.

The whole difference is that you see about 10% more than usual in the media in this war.

It still does not show about 80% truth of the facts that happen every day over there and in any war.

If you are down there yourself and you follow the percentage of the tings that happen that get exposure in the media you'll find out it is not very high.

Take care,
Steve

[pure energy]

Originally posted by MarcS
I can very well see how this could happen in a situation with so much psychical pressure on the soldiers.
But by now it seems to be clear that everyone in the Pentagon knew about the situation for a couple months now and they just tried to cover it up.

That is the easiest way out!

[KRL]

Originally posted by EscortBiz
local level

think of it this way

everyday in america a prisoner is abused y a prison guard, what level does that come from?

They're reporting on ABC News that the two top commanders in Iraq, Gen. Sanchez and Gen. Abizidad were aware of it. And if they were aware of it, then Washington had to be also.

[AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE]

Top folks at the Pentagon knew what was going on and never did anything about it.

[reynold]

Originally posted by KRL
They're reporting on ABC News that the two top commanders in Iraq, Gen. Sanchez and Gen. Abizidad were aware of it. And if they were aware of it, then Washington had to be also.

I see no reason why they have to hide it from those in the top. Where do they get their directives anyway?

[Goose]

the british have known of these incidents since early january

[abyss_al]

Originally posted by KRL
They're reporting on ABC News that the two top commanders in Iraq, Gen. Sanchez and Gen. Abizidad were aware of it. And if they were aware of it, then Washington had to be also.

that's what i think

[Mr. Marks]

Originally posted by KRL
I'd agree if it was isolated to this one prison, but apparently it was happening at all the prisons.

Exactly. According to the TAGUBA report and the RED CROSS report, it happened at ALL American-held prisons. From Abu Ghraib to the temporary airport jail they made. SYSTEMATIC is the word used by both reports.

Note that the Taguba report was by a US general

[Centurion]

Apparently the "Army Times", a very well read paper in the military will be calling for the resignations of BOTH Rumsfeld and Joint Chiefs Chairman.

That's big time hurt when your "own" paper wants you gone!

[Mr. Marks]

Originally posted by KRL
They're reporting on ABC News that the two top commanders in Iraq, Gen. Sanchez and Gen. Abizidad were aware of it. And if they were aware of it, then Washington had to be also.

I can see it now.

The typical 'ritual' for this:
hand wringing, public mea culpa, cosmetic changes, slaps on the wrist, better hiding/secrecy techniques, BACK TO BUSINESS AS USUAL.

[Mr. Marks]

Originally posted by Centurion
Apparently the "Army Times", a very well read paper in the military will be calling for the resignations of BOTH Rumsfeld and Joint Chiefs Chairman.

That's big time hurt when your "own" paper wants you gone!

This would be HUGE news. Got a link?

[Centurion]

Originally posted by papichulo
This would be HUGE news. Got a link?

Yep. It was on the CBS evening news last night..and here's the link to the actual video clip they used:

Whoops..can't link directly to the video..you need to load it yourself..but here's the link to the page it's on:

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/home/main100.shtml

[Mr. Marks]

Originally posted by Centurion
Yep. It was on the CBS evening news last night..and here's the link to the actual video clip they used:

Whoops..can't link directly to the video..you need to load it yourself..but here's the link to the page it's on:

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/home/main100.shtml

Thanks for the link. It looks like we're not finished yet with this scandal.

One big question: Is it's SHADOW long enough that it might fuck GWB come November? (6 months away)

[Centurion]

Originally posted by papichulo
Thanks for the link. It looks like we're not finished yet with this scandal.

One big question: Is it's SHADOW long enough that it might fuck GWB come November? (6 months away)

We can only hope!!

[KRL]

Originally posted by Centurion
Apparently the "Army Times", a very well read paper in the military will be calling for the resignations of BOTH Rumsfeld and Joint Chiefs Chairman.

That's big time hurt when your "own" paper wants you gone!

Is that online somewhere? I'd be curious to read up on that one.

That's pretty bad if the rank and file are saying adios to their leaders.

[KRL]

Listen to the My Lai Video that was on 60 Minutes and also the Saudi torturing the Brits on that same page.

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/60mi...main3415.shtml

[GigaXXX]

yeah

[jayeff]

• In the US nearly four million women per year are physically abused by their husbands or boyfriends. Physical abuse of a woman occurs approximately every nine seconds in this country.
• Approximately 30% of women visiting the Emergency Room (ER) of hospitals have been identified as having injuries caused by battering.
• Pregnant women are even more likely to be beaten by husbands or boyfriends. Studies indicate that anywhere from 8% to 15% of pregnant women in public and private clinics are presenting with injuries due to domestic violence.

We know damn well from all kinds of indicators, and many from our own experience, that a lot of men don't leave bullying behind when they leave the schoolyard.

So let's not pretend that the behaviour of these guards has anything to do with the pressures of war. The apologists for these guards are every bit as despicable as those who attempt to rationalize violence against women.

It seems to me that if you run a prison, you have to know that among your guards are some who will abuse the prisoners if you don't take care to prevent it. Thus I hope that the guards are punished, but also those who should have maintained discipline.

Normally I could believe that knowledge of what was happening might not have gone far up the ladder. But we are told about Red Cross warnings and about (illegally) classified reports that were buried. In any event it used to be that those in the chain of command took responsibility for the actions of those under their command. It would not be a step forward for that to change.

[Paul Waters]

I expect that it will come out that many soldiers are trained how to, most effectively, abuse and assult and humiliate the enemy.

[just a punk]

Originally posted by TeenGodFather
Yeah. A higher ranking guy in the prison, not a HIGH ranking officer gives an order and it's carried out.. then things get out of control. I have no difficulties seeing it. The knowledge of the incident might not have gotten out of the prison. But everyone in there knew officers and all. They should take responsibility. I'm quite sure rumsfeld and the bunch might have been unaware of it.

Agree.

[mryellow]

I'm quite sure rumsfeld and the bunch might have been unaware of it.

Oh course.... this is how it has always worked....

You get others to do the dirty work then you just say you knew
nothing about it and u'll look into it and find a scapegoat.

It was coming up the chain to them, and they made sure no one
told them on the record. They didn't want to know about it.

As for Rumsfield saying the troops were trained in the GC, well
that's just garbage. None of them had ever even seen it.

anyway.... speaking of international law.... I'm sure not many
realise that there are countless hundreds of ways the US is
breaking international law. For starters a shitload of the weapons
used by the US military are banned for causing unnecessary pain
and suffering. We don't use dumdum bullets or mustard gas
anymore because of these laws, however the US found nastier
ways to kill ppl. Only thing that lets them get away with it is they
never travel to any countries which might arrest them and send
them to the Hague.

A couple of examples.

Planning the first Gulf war before it started and fooling Saddam
into thinking he had permission to invade Kuwait was a crime
against peace.

Bribing and subverting the UN security council is against it's
charter.

Blowing up nuclear reactors in Iraq is a crime against the
environment.

Using Fuel-Air bombs (suck up all the air and everything dies) and
some of the even newer nasties is a war crime. Weapons
shouldn't cause unnecessary pain and suffering.

Burning civilians in mass graves in Panama is a war crime.

Firing on unarmed troops fleeing combat is a war crime.

All's fair in love and war..... just not very honorable.

Sure you'll say these laws are just silly..... however after 2 world
wars we as a species decided it would be a good idea to limit the
extremes a little.... It might make the fighting of the war a little
harder and longer but it makes the peace after much more
peaceful. Sometimes it's just not worth winning at any cost.

-Ben

[mryellow]

oh btw.... most prisoners in Cuba were sent via Egypt first.... a
place where torture is legal.... Why do you think that is?

-Ben

[Babel]

Please Please Please, Just look how hard the USA tried to exempt itself from Hague war crimes court before the war ....

[FunForOne]

Man, I think this is one of those things that the brass is kept from knowing for this particular reason.

There is probably a lot of this type of stuff that goes on that the public is not supposed to know about. The pictures are where they screwed up.


What pissess me off is the democrats in one breath say that the president is trying to politicize the war and then the next breath make public statements that the president and staff should be fired because of the war.


President Bush and Mr Rumsfeld did NOT start this type of stuff, its been part of operations for a while. I'm not saying its right, but lets not be naive.

I just pray for our soldiers that we dont see tapes of physical abuse and rape.

[FunForOne]

Originally posted by mryellow


A couple of examples.

Planning the first Gulf war before it started and fooling Saddam
into thinking he had permission to invade Kuwait was a crime
against peace.

Bribing and subverting the UN security council is against it's
charter.

Blowing up nuclear reactors in Iraq is a crime against the
environment.

Using Fuel-Air bombs (suck up all the air and everything dies) and
some of the even newer nasties is a war crime. Weapons
shouldn't cause unnecessary pain and suffering.

Burning civilians in mass graves in Panama is a war crime.

Firing on unarmed troops fleeing combat is a war crime.

All's fair in love and war..... just not very honorable.

Sure you'll say these laws are just silly..... however after 2 world
wars we as a species decided it would be a good idea to limit the
extremes a little.... It might make the fighting of the war a little
harder and longer but it makes the peace after much more
peaceful. Sometimes it's just not worth winning at any cost.

-Ben

I'm pretty skeptical of this information, I would love to know where you got this information. This stuff may be true but I doubt it.

My reasoning, = the democrats would be yelling it from the rooftops and adding a whole lot of other shit with while trying to further their political careers.

[EviLGuY]

Originally posted by tbabe
I think it was a case of mob mentality taking over at the prison, each soldier trying to outdo the other to humiliate the prisoners.

Makes sense to me. I dont see the motive for the top brass to condone something like this in this day and age.

[mryellow]

Planning the first Gulf war before it started and fooling Saddam
into thinking he had permission to invade Kuwait was a crime
against peace.

In 1989, General Colin Powell, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of
Staff, and General Norman Schwarzkopf, Commander in Chief of
the Central Command, completely revised U.S. military operations
and plans for the Persian Gulf to prepare to intervene in a
regional conflict against Iraq.

In 1989, CIA Director William Webster testified before the
Congress about the alarming increase in U.S. importation of Gulf
oil, citing U.S. rise in use from 5% in 1973 to 10% in 1989 and
predicting 25% of all U.S. oil consumption would come from the
region by 2000.

In July 1990, General Schwarzkopf and his staff ran elaborate,
computerized war games pitting about 100,000 U.S. troops
against Iraqi armored divisions.

When Saddam Hussein requested U.S. Ambassador April Glaspie
to explain State Department testimony in Congress about lraq's
threats against Kuwait, she assured him the U.S. considered the
dispute a regional concern, and it would not intervene.

At the same time the US congress was still approving loans of
food, and medical supplies. While US companies were still selling
him arms.

On August 2, 1990, Iraq occupied Kuwait without significant
resistance.

On August 3, 1990, without any evidence of a threat to Saudi
Arabia, and King Fahd believed Iraq had no intention of invading
his country, President Bush vowed to defend Saudi Arabia. He
sent Secretary Cheney, General Powell, and General Schwarzkopf
almost immediately to Saudi Arabia where on August 6, General
Schwarzkopf told King Fahd the U.S. thought Saddam Hussein
could attack Saudi Arabia in as little as 48 hours.

This violates Principal VI a of the Nuremberg Tribunal, 1950

Bribing and subverting the UN security council is against it's
charter.

To obtain Security Council votes, the U.S. corruptly paid member
nations billions of dollars, provided them arms to conduct regional
wars, forgave billions in debts, withdrew opposition to a World
Bank loan, agreed to diplomatic relations despite human rights
violations and threatened economic and political reprisals. A
nation which voted against the United States, Yemen, was
immediately punished by the loss of millions of dollars in aid. The
U.S. paid the UN $187 million to reduce the amount of dues it
owed to the UN to avoid criticism of its coercive activities.

This violates the Charter of the United Nations and the
Constitution and laws of the United States.

Blowing up nuclear reactors in Iraq is a crime against the
environment.

The U.S. intentionally bombed alleged nuclear sites, chemical
plants, dams and other dangerous forces. The U.S. knew such
attacks could cause the release of dangerous forces from such
installations and consequent severe losses among the civilian
population.

This violates Protocol I Additional, Article 56, to the Geneva
Convention, 1977.

Using Fuel-Air bombs (suck up all the air and everything dies) and
some of the even newer nasties is a war crime. Weapons
shouldn't cause unnecessary pain and suffering.

Fuel air explosives capable of widespread incineration and death.
Napalm.
Cluster and anti-personnel fragmentation bombs.
"Superbombs," 2.5 ton devices, intended for assassination of
government leaders.

Also don't forget "cruise missiles" if your check the boeing.com
site you'll see that many of these are sub-kiloton nuclear
warheads. They may have modified the site since I was there but
a few years back they openly showed that they were making
nuclear cruise missiles for the US.

The conduct violated the Hague and Geneva Conventions, the
Nuremberg Charter and the laws of armed conflict.

Burning civilians in mass graves in Panama is a war crime.

On December 20, 1989, President Bush ordered a military assault
on Panama using aircraft, artillery, helicopter gunships and
experimenting with new weapons, including the Stealth bomber.
The attack was a surprise assault targeting civilian and non-
combatant government structures. In the E1 Chorillo district of
Panama City alone, hundreds of civilians were killed and between
15,000 and 30,000 made homeless. U.S. soldiers buried dead
Panamanians in mass graves, often without identification. The
head of state, Manuel Noriega, who was systematically
demonized by the U.S. government and press, ultimately
surrendered to U.S. forces and was brought to Miami, Florida, on
extra-territorial U.S. criminal charges.

The U.S. invasion of Panama violated all the international laws
Iraq violated when it invaded Kuwait and more. Many more
Panamanians were killed by U.S. forces than Iraq killed Kuwaitis.

President Bush violated the Charter of the United Nations, the
Hague and Geneva Conventions, committed crimes against
peace, war crimes and violated the U.S.Constitution and
numerous U.S. criminal statutes in ordering and directing the
assault on Panama.

Firing on unarmed troops fleeing combat is a war crime.

The U.S. ground forces moved into Kuwait and Iraq attacking
disoriented disorganized, fleeing Iraqi forces wherever they could
be found, killing thousands more and destroying any equipment
found. The slaughter continued after the cease fire.

March 2, 1991, U.S. 24th Division Forces engaged in a four-hour
assault against Iraqis just west of Basra. More than 750 vehicles
were destroyed, thousands were killed without U.S.
casualties. "Highway of death".

This violated the Charter of the United Nations, the Hague and
Geneva Conventions, the Nuremberg Charter, and the laws of
armed conflict.

Most of this information comes from the Commission of Inquiry for
the International War Crimes Tribunial.

These are the commissioners:

Olga Mejia, Panama
President of the National Human Rights Commission in Panama, a
non-governmental body representing peasants' organizations,
urban trade unions, women's groups and others.

Sheik Mohamed Rashid, Pakistan
Former deputy prime minister. Long-term political prisoner during
the struggle against British colonialism and activist for workers'
and peasants' rights.

Dr. Haluk Gerger, Turkey
Founding member of Turkish Human Rights Association and
professor of political science. Dismissed from Ankara University by
military government.

Susumu Ozaki, Japan
Former judge and pro-labor attorney imprisoned 1934-1938 for
violating Security Law under militarist government for opposing
Japan's invasion of China.

Michael Ratner, USA
Attorney, former director of the Center for Constitutional Rights,
past president of the National Lawyers Guild.

Lord Tony Gifford, Britain
Human rights lawyer practicing in England and Jamaica.
Investigated human rights abuses in British-occupied Ireland.

Rene Dumont, France
Argonomist, ecologist, specialist in agriculture of developing
countries, author. His 45th book, This War Dishonors Us, appears
in 1992.

Bassam Haddadin, Jordan
Member of Parliament, Second Secretary for the Jordanian
Democratic Peoples Party. Member of Parliamentary Committee
on Palestine.

Dr. Sherif Hetata, Egypt
Medical Doctor, author, member of the Central Committee of the
Arab Progressive Unionist Party. Political prisoner 14 years in
1950s and 1960s.

Deborah Jackson, USA
First vice president of the American Association of Jurists, former
director of National Conference of Black Lawyers.

Opato Matarmah, Menominee Nation of North America
Involved in defense of human rights of indigenous peoples since
1981. Represented the International Indian Treaty Council at the
Commission of Human Rights at the U.N.

Laura Albizu, Campos Meneses, Puerto Rico
Past President of the Puerto Rican Nationalist Party and current
Secretary for Foreign Relations. Honorary president of Peace
Council.

Aisha Nyerere, Tanzania
Resident Magistrate of the High Court in Arusha, Tanzania.
Researched the impact of the Gulf war on East Africa.

Peter Leibovtich, Canada
President of United Steel Workers of America, USWA, Local 8782
and of the Executive Council of the Ontario Federation of Labor.

John Philpot, Quebec
Attorney, member of Board of Directors of Quebec Movement for
Sovereignty. Organizing Secretary for the American Association of
Jurist in Canada.

John Jones, USA
Community leader in the state of New Jersey. Vietnam veteran
who became leader of movement against U.S. attack on Iraq.

Gloria La Riva, USA
Founding member of the Farmworkers Emergency Relief
Committee and Emergency Committee to Stop the U.S. War in the
Middle East in San Francisco.

Key Martin, USA
Member of Executive Committee of Local 3 of the Newspaper
Guild in New York. Jailed in 1967 for taking message of Bertrand
Russell Tribunal on Vietnam to active duty Gls.

Dr. Alfred Mechtersheimer, Germany
Former member of the Bundestag from the Green Party. Former
Lieutenant Colonel in the Bundeswher; current peace researcher.

Abderrazak Kilani, Tunisia
Tunisian Bar Association. Former President, Association of Young
Lawyers; founding member, National Committee to Lift the
Embargo from Iraq.

Tan Sri Ahmad Noordin bin Zakaria, Malaysia
Former Auditor General of Malaysia. Known throughout his
country for battling corruption in government.

P. S. Poti, India
Former Chief Justice of the Gujarat High Court. In 1989 elected
president of the All-lndia Lawyers Union.

-Ben

[mryellow]

You think the democrats would jump all over this? No mate....
they'd do exactly the same thing. Until the US people get their
government back under their control they'll keep on making huge
mistakes like these in your names.

As you can probably see.... I'm one of those people that
understand both sides and know that things like this will happen.
I'm not God, I don't pretend to know what's best like Bush does.
I don't know if the world would be a better place with or without
these conflicts. I just know that how they went about it leaves
the US open to more and more unfriendliness.

of course all this info is from Gulf War I.... We'll have some of the
facts of Gulf War II in another year or 2 once everyone has
stopped caring. Don't expect to know what is going on as it's
happening. They don't like US citizens knowing what they do in
their name.

-Ben