Here's another one - GoFuckYourself.com

rhizome · 09-13-2001, 10:09 PM

This article is from the esteemed British reporter Robert Fisk. A little insensitive, a little on the edge but also important:
http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=93623

Lane · 09-13-2001, 10:11 PM

404 here

Rice_Master · 09-13-2001, 10:13 PM

and here

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rhizome · 09-13-2001, 10:19 PM

Sorry, the Independent's a little slow. Here's the article:

So it has come to this. The entire modern history of the Middle East * the collapse of the Ottoman empire, the Balfour declaration, Lawrence of Arabia's lies, the Arab revolt, the foundation of the state of Israel, four Arab-Israeli wars and the 34 years of Israel's brutal occupation of Arab land * all erased within hours as those who claim to represent a crushed, humiliated population struck back with the wickedness and awesome cruelty of a doomed people. Is it fair * is it moral * to write this so soon, without
proof, when the last act of barbarism, in Oklahoma, turned out to be the work of home-grown Americans? I fear it is. America is at war and, unless I am mistaken, many thousands more are now scheduled to die
in the Middle East, perhaps in America too. Some of us warned of "the explosion to come''. But we never dreamt this nightmare.

And yes, Osama bin Laden comes to mind, his money, his theology, his frightening dedication to destroy American power. I have sat in front of bin Laden as he described how his men helped to destroy the Russian
army in Afghanistan and thus the Soviet Union. Their boundless confidence allowed them to declare war on America. But this is not the war of democracy versus terror that the world will be asked to believe in the
coming days. It is also about American missiles smashing into Palestinian homes and US helicopters firing missiles into a Lebanese ambulance in 1996 and American shells crashing into a village called Qana
and about a Lebanese militia * paid and uniformed by America's Israeli ally * hacking and raping and murdering their way through refugee camps.

No, there is no doubting the utter, indescribable evil of what has happened in the United States. That Palestinians could celebrate the massacre of 20,000, perhaps 35,000 innocent people is not only a symbol of their despair but of their political immaturity, of their failure to grasp what they had always been accusing their Israeli enemies of doing: acting disproportionately. All the years of rhetoric, all the promises to strike at the heart of America, to cut off
the head of "the American snake'' we took for empty threats. How could a backward, conservative, undemocratic and corrupt group of regimes and small, violent organisations fulfil such preposterous promises? Now we know.

And in the hours that followed yesterday's
annihilation, I began to remember those other
extraordinary assaults upon the US and its allies, miniature now by comparison with yesterday's casualties. Did not the suicide bombers who killed 241 American servicemen and 100 French paratroops in Beirut on 23 October 1983, time their attacks with
unthinkable precision?

There were just seven seconds between the Marine bombing and the destruction of the French three miles away. Then there were the attacks on US bases in Saudi Arabia, and last year's attempt * almost successful it
now turns out * to sink the USS Cole in Aden. And then how easy was our failure to recognise the new weapon of the Middle East which neither Americans nor any other Westerners could equal: the despair-driven,
desperate suicide bomber.

And there will be, inevitably, and quite immorally, an attempt to obscure the historical wrongs and the injustices that lie behind yesterday's firestorms. We will be told about "mindless terrorism'', the
"mindless" bit being essential if we are not to realise how hated America has become in the land of the birth of three great religions.

Ask an Arab how he responds to 20,000 or 30,000 innocent deaths and he or she will respond as decent people should, that it is an unspeakable crime. But they will ask why we did not use such words about the
sanctions that have destroyed the lives of perhaps half a million children in Iraq, why we did not rage about the 17,500 civilians killed in Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon. And those basic reasons why the Middle East caught fire last September * the Israeli
occupation of Arab land, the dispossession of
Palestinians, the bombardments and state-sponsored executions ... all these must be obscured lest they provide the smallest fractional reason for yesterday's mass savagery.

No, Israel was not to blame * though we can be sure that Saddam Hussein and the other grotesque dictators will claim so * but the malign influence of history and our share in its burden must surely stand in the dark with the suicide bombers. Our broken promises, perhaps even our destruction of the Ottoman Empire, led inevitably to this tragedy. America has bankrolled Israel's wars for so many years that it believed this
would be cost-free. No longer so. But, of course, the US will want to strike back against "world terror'', and last night's bombardment of Kabul may have been the opening salvo. Indeed, who could ever point the finger at Americans now for using that pejorative and sometimes racist word "terrorism''?

Eight years ago, I helped to make a television series that tried to explain why so many Muslims had come to hate the West. Last night, I remembered some of those
Muslims in that film, their families burnt by
American-made bombs and weapons. They talked about how no one would help them but God. Theology versus technology, the suicide bomber against the nuclear power. Now we have learnt what this means.

Rose · 09-13-2001, 10:30 PM

Israel is only democracy in the region.
And they had to defend themselves for last 50 years.

drumsicle · 09-13-2001, 10:33 PM

Esteemed Robert Fisk? Esteemed by who? That fucker can't even tell the truth...It wasn't Israel who killed those civilians, it was Christian Phlangists who were on the side of Israel because of their own persecution by Islamic governments.

Fuck Fisk, the anti-Israel, terror apologist. You people need to stop blaming this shit on Israel. What was the Arabs excuse for Western hatred pre-1948?

Rose · 09-13-2001, 10:41 PM

Israel was attacked within hours after
declaring their independence by Arab nations.

rhizome · 09-13-2001, 10:42 PM

"Robert Fisk is Britain's most highly decorated foreign correspondent. He has received the British International Journalist of the Year award seven times, most recently in 1995 and 1996. He writes in "The Independent"."

Fisk has also won a Pulitzer Prize but you're right, he is partial to the Palestinians and does sometimes take his bias too far (that's why I prefaced this with the article being a little on the edge)

And also just for the sake of accuracy, even the Israeli judicial commission (Kahan Commission) found Sharon "personally responsible" for the atrocity. He ordered the invasion and allowed the Phalangists to enter knowing that there would be a huge massacre of the refugees.

[This message has been edited by rhizome (edited 09-13-2001).]

09-13-2001, 10:09 PM	#1
rhizome Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 788	Here's another one This article is from the esteemed British reporter Robert Fisk. A little insensitive, a little on the edge but also important: http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=93623

09-13-2001, 10:11 PM	#2
Lane Will code for food... Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Buckeye, AZ Posts: 8,496	404 here

09-13-2001, 10:13 PM	#3
Rice_Master Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 1,582	and here ------------------

09-13-2001, 10:19 PM	#4
rhizome Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 788	Sorry, the Independent's a little slow. Here's the article: So it has come to this. The entire modern history of the Middle East * the collapse of the Ottoman empire, the Balfour declaration, Lawrence of Arabia's lies, the Arab revolt, the foundation of the state of Israel, four Arab-Israeli wars and the 34 years of Israel's brutal occupation of Arab land * all erased within hours as those who claim to represent a crushed, humiliated population struck back with the wickedness and awesome cruelty of a doomed people. Is it fair * is it moral * to write this so soon, without proof, when the last act of barbarism, in Oklahoma, turned out to be the work of home-grown Americans? I fear it is. America is at war and, unless I am mistaken, many thousands more are now scheduled to die in the Middle East, perhaps in America too. Some of us warned of "the explosion to come''. But we never dreamt this nightmare. And yes, Osama bin Laden comes to mind, his money, his theology, his frightening dedication to destroy American power. I have sat in front of bin Laden as he described how his men helped to destroy the Russian army in Afghanistan and thus the Soviet Union. Their boundless confidence allowed them to declare war on America. But this is not the war of democracy versus terror that the world will be asked to believe in the coming days. It is also about American missiles smashing into Palestinian homes and US helicopters firing missiles into a Lebanese ambulance in 1996 and American shells crashing into a village called Qana and about a Lebanese militia * paid and uniformed by America's Israeli ally * hacking and raping and murdering their way through refugee camps. No, there is no doubting the utter, indescribable evil of what has happened in the United States. That Palestinians could celebrate the massacre of 20,000, perhaps 35,000 innocent people is not only a symbol of their despair but of their political immaturity, of their failure to grasp what they had always been accusing their Israeli enemies of doing: acting disproportionately. All the years of rhetoric, all the promises to strike at the heart of America, to cut off the head of "the American snake'' we took for empty threats. How could a backward, conservative, undemocratic and corrupt group of regimes and small, violent organisations fulfil such preposterous promises? Now we know. And in the hours that followed yesterday's annihilation, I began to remember those other extraordinary assaults upon the US and its allies, miniature now by comparison with yesterday's casualties. Did not the suicide bombers who killed 241 American servicemen and 100 French paratroops in Beirut on 23 October 1983, time their attacks with unthinkable precision? There were just seven seconds between the Marine bombing and the destruction of the French three miles away. Then there were the attacks on US bases in Saudi Arabia, and last year's attempt * almost successful it now turns out * to sink the USS Cole in Aden. And then how easy was our failure to recognise the new weapon of the Middle East which neither Americans nor any other Westerners could equal: the despair-driven, desperate suicide bomber. And there will be, inevitably, and quite immorally, an attempt to obscure the historical wrongs and the injustices that lie behind yesterday's firestorms. We will be told about "mindless terrorism'', the "mindless" bit being essential if we are not to realise how hated America has become in the land of the birth of three great religions. Ask an Arab how he responds to 20,000 or 30,000 innocent deaths and he or she will respond as decent people should, that it is an unspeakable crime. But they will ask why we did not use such words about the sanctions that have destroyed the lives of perhaps half a million children in Iraq, why we did not rage about the 17,500 civilians killed in Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon. And those basic reasons why the Middle East caught fire last September * the Israeli occupation of Arab land, the dispossession of Palestinians, the bombardments and state-sponsored executions ... all these must be obscured lest they provide the smallest fractional reason for yesterday's mass savagery. No, Israel was not to blame * though we can be sure that Saddam Hussein and the other grotesque dictators will claim so * but the malign influence of history and our share in its burden must surely stand in the dark with the suicide bombers. Our broken promises, perhaps even our destruction of the Ottoman Empire, led inevitably to this tragedy. America has bankrolled Israel's wars for so many years that it believed this would be cost-free. No longer so. But, of course, the US will want to strike back against "world terror'', and last night's bombardment of Kabul may have been the opening salvo. Indeed, who could ever point the finger at Americans now for using that pejorative and sometimes racist word "terrorism''? Eight years ago, I helped to make a television series that tried to explain why so many Muslims had come to hate the West. Last night, I remembered some of those Muslims in that film, their families burnt by American-made bombs and weapons. They talked about how no one would help them but God. Theology versus technology, the suicide bomber against the nuclear power. Now we have learnt what this means.

09-13-2001, 10:30 PM	#5
Rose Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: ON,Canada Posts: 1,456	Israel is only democracy in the region. And they had to defend themselves for last 50 years.

09-13-2001, 10:33 PM	#6
drumsicle Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: St. Louis Posts: 1,049	Esteemed Robert Fisk? Esteemed by who? That fucker can't even tell the truth...It wasn't Israel who killed those civilians, it was Christian Phlangists who were on the side of Israel because of their own persecution by Islamic governments. Fuck Fisk, the anti-Israel, terror apologist. You people need to stop blaming this shit on Israel. What was the Arabs excuse for Western hatred pre-1948?

09-13-2001, 10:41 PM	#7
Rose Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: ON,Canada Posts: 1,456	Israel was attacked within hours after declaring their independence by Arab nations.

09-13-2001, 10:42 PM	#8
rhizome Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 788	"Robert Fisk is Britain's most highly decorated foreign correspondent. He has received the British International Journalist of the Year award seven times, most recently in 1995 and 1996. He writes in "The Independent"." Fisk has also won a Pulitzer Prize but you're right, he is partial to the Palestinians and does sometimes take his bias too far (that's why I prefaced this with the article being a little on the edge) And also just for the sake of accuracy, even the Israeli judicial commission (Kahan Commission) found Sharon "personally responsible" for the atrocity. He ordered the invasion and allowed the Phalangists to enter knowing that there would be a huge massacre of the refugees. [This message has been edited by rhizome (edited 09-13-2001).]