Israeli aircraft strike Palestinian PM?s office - Page 5 - GoFuckYourself.com

2HousePlague · 07-03-2006, 09:48 AM

200 aitrstrikes -- kaboom!

2hp

NoComments · 07-03-2006, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PostWhore

Ah, there is no point of arguing here. It is some dumb fuck electricion, who got lucky on ripping of people, and now he is acting all highclass, while he has no ethics or morals at all...

hahahaah dude, go fuck yourself

postwhore,
I guess you didn't like the taste of my cum.
Don't inhale the next time.

On my part, I promise,
I'll wear condom the next time I fuck you in the ass.

This High Class post was brought to you by
RUSSKY Serge.

Brujah · 07-03-2006, 10:14 AM

From Wiki, it doesn't seem like Nazi's minded too much who they killed.
****
About 220,000 Sinti and Roma were murdered in the Holocaust (some estimates are as high as 800,000), between a quarter to a half of the European population. Other groups deemed "racially inferior" or "undesirable": Poles (5 million killed, of whom 3 million were Jewish), Serbs (estimates vary between 100,000 and 700,000 killed, mostly by Croat Ustahahaha353;e), Soviet military prisoners of war and civilians on occupied territories including Russians and other East Slavs, the mentally or physically disabled, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists and political dissidents, trade unionists, Freemasons, and some Catholic and Protestant clergy, were also persecuted and killed. Many scholars do not include the Nazi persecution of all of these groups in the definition of the Holocaust, with some scholars limiting the Holocaust to the genocide of the Jews; some to genocide of the Jews, Roma, and disabled; and some to all groups targeted by Nazi racism. Taking all these other groups into account, however, the total death toll rises considerably, estimates generally place the total number of Holocaust victims at 9 to 11 million, though some estimates have been as high as 26 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust

NoComments · 07-03-2006, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brujah

From Wiki, it doesn't seem like Nazi's minded too much who they killed.
****
About 220,000 Sinti and Roma were murdered in the Holocaust (some estimates are as high as 800,000), between a quarter to a half of the European population. Other groups deemed "racially inferior" or "undesirable": Poles (5 million killed, of whom 3 million were Jewish), Serbs (estimates vary between 100,000 and 700,000 killed, mostly by Croat Ustahahaha353;e), Soviet military prisoners of war and civilians on occupied territories including Russians and other East Slavs, the mentally or physically disabled, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists and political dissidents, trade unionists, Freemasons, and some Catholic and Protestant clergy, were also persecuted and killed. Many scholars do not include the Nazi persecution of all of these groups in the definition of the Holocaust, with some scholars limiting the Holocaust to the genocide of the Jews; some to genocide of the Jews, Roma, and disabled; and some to all groups targeted by Nazi racism. Taking all these other groups into account, however, the total death toll rises considerably, estimates generally place the total number of Holocaust victims at 9 to 11 million, though some estimates have been as high as 26 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust

not true...they haven't killed Arabs, Palestinians and thus the Heros of the Muslim World.

NoComments · 07-03-2006, 10:23 AM

Brujah,
here are the reasons why:

http://www.corpse.org/issue_11/broken_news/lee.html

Back to the Beginning

The roots of the Muslim Brotherhood -- and, in many ways, the Nazi-Muslim axis -- go back to the organization's formation in Egypt in 1928. Marking the start of modern political Islam, or what is often referred to as "Islamic fundamentalism," the Brotherhood from the outset envisioned a time when an Islamic state would prevail in Egypt and other Arab countries, where the organization quickly established local branches. The growth of the Muslim Brotherhood coincided with the rise of fascist movements in Europe -- a parallel noted by Muhammad Sa'id al-'Ashmawy, former chief justice of Egypt's High Criminal Court, who decried "the perversion of Islam" and "the fascistic ideology" that infuses the world view of the Muslim Brothers, "their total (if not totalitarian) way of life ...[and] their fantastical reading of the Koran."
******* Nada, current board chairman of Al Taqwa, had joined the armed branch of the Muslim Brotherhood as a young man in Egypt during World War II. Nada and several of his cohorts in the Sunni Muslim fraternity were recruited by German military intelligence, which sought to undermine British colonial rule in the land of the sphinx. Hassan al-Banna, the Egyptian schoolteacher who founded the Muslim Brotherhood, also collaborated with spies of the Third Reich.
Advocating a pan-Islamic insurgency in British-controlled Palestine, the Brotherhood proclaimed their support for the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, in the late 1930s. The Grand Mufti, the preeminent religious figure among Palestinian Muslims, was the most notable Arab leader to seek an alliance with Nazi Germany, which was eager to extend its influence in the Middle East.
Although he loathed Arabs (he once described them as "lacquered half-apes who ought to be whipped"), Hitler understood that he and the Mufti shared the same rivals -- the British, the Jews and the Communists. Indicative of the old Arab adage, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend," they met in Berlin, where the Mufti lived in exile during the war. The Mufti agreed to help organize a special Muslim division of the Waffen SS. Powerful radio transmitters were put at the Mufti's disposal so that his pro-Axis propaganda could be heard throughout the Arab world.

PostWhore · 07-03-2006, 10:34 AM

HIGH CLASS????

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHA

dude you so craving to be a high class, but that is the last thing in the world that you are. You can not have class, just because you have money. You are still uneducated moron, with no class, and you always be! What are you? Over 40? And you think you have class by arguing with morons on this site? You will never have class..haha look at your nickname, WINETALKER, LOOOOL!!!!!!! What a moron, hahahaah you think you have class, because you drink wine, ahahah what you saw people do that on tv and you think if you do it, you will have class?? Think you are an educated oldtimer, who has class. JIGGA PLEASE! You are an idiot who just stole some money when the time came, there is no class in that. And lets talk about you HIGH EDUCATION, oh wait, you do not have it hahahaha. And your same jokes about sucking dick, as getting as old, as bushes excuses for war.

NO CLASS, MAKE A TATOO ON YOUR DUMB FORHEAD

NO CLASS!

NoComments · 07-03-2006, 10:39 AM

your post is too long,
made it 5 liner in the next 5 mins or I'll put you on ignore like the rest of the MORONS.
the time on my PC is 1:41,
you have 'til 1:46

NoComments · 07-03-2006, 10:42 AM

PostWhore
This message is hidden because PostWhore is on your ignore list.

what did you say?

Brujah · 07-03-2006, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winetalk

not true...they haven't killed Arabs, Palestinians and thus the Heros of the Muslim World.

Probably just needed to give them time, they were too busy eliminating most of europe first.

NoComments · 07-03-2006, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brujah

Probably just needed to give them time, they were too busy eliminating most of europe first.

Arabs were allies

Quote:

Nada and several of his cohorts in the Sunni Muslim fraternity were recruited by German military intelligence, which sought to undermine British colonial rule in the land of the sphinx. Hassan al-Banna, the Egyptian schoolteacher who founded the Muslim Brotherhood, also collaborated with spies of the Third Reich.

Gunni · 07-03-2006, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winetalk

Arabs were allies

So was Stalin

I know Hitler liked Iranians (Iran litterally means 'land of arians' in Farsi I belive), but the rest I'm not so sure about, specially the N-African ones like Morocco and Egypt

NoComments · 07-03-2006, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunni

So was Stalin

I know Hitler liked Iranians (Iran litterally means 'land of arians' in Farsi I belive), but the rest I'm not so sure about, specially the N-African ones like Morocco and Egypt

not sure about Egypt?

read Anwar Sadat biorgraphy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_Sadat
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_Powers

Brujah · 07-03-2006, 11:56 AM

Interesting...
Benjamin Franklin proposed a clear distinction between "white" Europeans and "swarthy" Europeans, stating that immigration to the newly-born United States should favor the "white" Northern Germans and Englishmen rather than the "swarthy" Southern Germans, French, and Italians. Franklin believed the "white" Europeans to be of a higher degree of culture than that of "swarthy" Europeans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_theory

ProducerCashDave · 07-03-2006, 12:03 PM

This Israeli Palestinian war isnt gonna end for a loooong time

Gunni · 07-03-2006, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winetalk

not sure about Egypt?

read Anwar Sadat biorgraphy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_Sadat
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_Powers

Well Sadat must not have been much of an anti-semite

Quote:

On October 6, the month after the crackdown, Sadat was assassinated during a parade in Cairo by army members who were part of the Egyptian Islamic Jihad organization. They opposed Sadat's negotiations with Israel

Probably more of an opportunist than anything

PostWhore · 07-03-2006, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winetalk

PostWhore
This message is hidden because PostWhore is on your ignore list.

what did you say?

I said yo mama gives a good blowjob

UtahSaints · 07-03-2006, 09:12 PM

Please tell me he did not call himself a high class whore? If I didn?t know any better who Serge Oprano is and was I wouldn't even bother to look in this topic but shiiiiiiit..

Odin · 07-03-2006, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winetalk

don't call him stupid.

I put morons on ignore, he is not a moron. He is misguided, but stupid he is not.
He articulates his position well, right or wrong, but he is an interesting opponent to argue with.

You flatter me

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winetalk

admittedly or not, but you go along word for word with the Official Arabic Version. It's OK, just admit it and we'll go forward from here.

You know what is absolutely amazing about that... I have never even read from an Arab source on the issue. In fact I haven't even really read from a revisionist source if you can believe that. I have read a few revisionist pages and have some books on the way, but most of what I've stated has come about through my own curiosity, and the fact that it matches the Arab version word for word says something in itself I believe. And no, that isn't that I am stupid as the Arabs, it is that perhaps there is at least SOME substance to the claims. Also if you could recommend me some good Arab historians who write about the issue I'd be happy to look into their work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winetalk

I found your source:
http://library.flawlesslogic.com/camps.htm

and here is another source:
http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/camps.html
mentionong names of Eisenhower, Patton, Bradley,
who had biographers of their own and who confirm it.

so...what makes you believe one source over the other?
I believe in the source I found based on the stories presented by survivors I interviewed personally,
and whom did you talk personally to weight the evidence presented by both sides?

Actually I have to be honest and say I didn't use Google once when responding to you. I couldn't be bothered wasting the time, and just went off old knowledge, so that isn't my source - although it is quite interesting. Your source confuses me though, it doesn't establish much and at most it references the NY Times anyway *cough* (we won't go into that). On the other hand the other link you provided does state some interesting information which I am going to track down and read, specifically the claims it makes about Dr. Charles Larson who I also found a quick and interesting quote from:

"The majority died of natural diseases of one kind or the another. However, we did probe into such questions as, 'What happened to those prisoners who became psychotic at Dachau? What did the Gestapo do with them?' Well, they took those people to the crematorium. First, however, they were taken to a big windowless building next to the crematorium where the ceiling was covered with false shower heads. The victims were then ordered to strip and take a 'shower.' Outside the building, guards dropped in cyanide pellets. Then they'd blow the cyanide gas out and remove the bodies next door to the crematorium ovens. I think this is what happened to most of the truly psychotic prisoners and those they considered unruly and unmanageable and who, in the Gestapo's opinion, were incorrigibles. But, in my opinion, only relatively few of the inmates I personally examined at Dachau were murdered in this manner. Still, medical facilities were totally inadequate. When people fell hopelessly ill and death was imminent, and when they grew so weak they could no longer work or function, they were taken to the cyanide room for disposal. The Nazi called them 'mercy killings' because there was no hope of them getting well. Actually, the Germans considered them a liability, and extermination was the answer."

For those who are not following "When American and British forces overran western and central Germany in the spring of 1945, they were followed by troops charged with discovering and securing any evidence of German war crimes. Among them was Dr. Charles Larson, one of America's leading forensic pathologists, who was assigned to the US Army's Judge Advocate General's Department. As part of a US War Crimes Investigation Team, Dr. Larson performed autopsies at Dachau and some twenty other German camps, examining on some days more than 100 corpses. After his grim work at Dachau, he was questioned for three days by US Army prosecutors."

Knowing that some revisionist sites (this being my reason for not really using them as sources), as do modern history books, have a tendacy to misquote to reach their conclusion I'll look into this individual more before I seriously considering what he has said however.

It is hugely interesting though that the America's in all the camps they have captured (even in your reference link) refer to starving and diseased inmates not mass-gassing's, and instead ignore a lot of the main claims from prisoners comparing it to 'double-vision' (a term which is new to me although I have studied some of the First World War), a term which originates from the First World War when false propaganda about German atrocities was widely reported. So here we have American liberated camps and Dr's in those camps saying they did not find evidence of mass-gassing (although some inmates made such claims), and than we have Soviet Liberated Camps, what we now infamously know as the Death Camps, claiming systematic gassing's occurred. You must admit it raises some questions doesn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunni

So was Stalin

I know Hitler liked Iranians (Iran litterally means 'land of arians' in Farsi I belive), but the rest I'm not so sure about, specially the N-African ones like Morocco and Egypt

This is the typical propaganda I speak about surrounding WWII. Yes Hitler allied with Muslims, in actuality he was annoyed with the Italians for not allowing him to ally more strongly. He said himself if it was not for the Italian's he could of pursued a 'fantastic' policy with regards to the Muslims who were itching to rise up against the British, but that unfortunately Muslims had a deep mistrust of Italy. I know post-war propaganda makes it hard to believe, but Hitler didn't intend to march his armies across the whole planet and gas anyone non-White. In fact he had disgust for policies such as colonialism for instance, and had great sympathies and indeed care for populations other than the Germans. As he put it (this is a memory based quote) I am certain the more and more the Japanese and Chinese show love for their race and nation the more and more I will like them. On the Muslim front he stated that he was quite certain that the people of Islam would forever be better friends of the German people than the French of British, even though the latter two were related by blood to the German nation. He was a misguided man who certainly had an extreme view of how the world should and would exist, a view which I don't support, however it is a view I can understand given the time and history of Europe at that stage. That is not to say I think what occured was good or just, only that as with various Communist revolutions I can understand the reasons for their coming about.

UtahSaints · 07-04-2006, 12:21 AM

You really expect him to answer this?

NoComments · 07-04-2006, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Also if you could recommend me some good Arab historians who write about the issue I'd be happy to look into their work.

considering that no arab army was in Europe to see evidence first hand, and arabs were 2 000 miles away from the nearest death camp, and have political interest in outcome, which is mandated by their governments
I say you chose your sources wisely....

NoComments · 07-04-2006, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Dr. Charles Larson who I also found a quick and interesting quote from:

"The majority died of natural diseases of one kind or the another. However, we did probe into such questions as, 'What happened to those prisoners who became psychotic at Dachau? What did the Gestapo do with them?' Well, they took those people to the crematorium. First, however, they were taken to a big windowless building next to the crematorium where the ceiling was covered with false shower heads. The victims were then ordered to strip and take a 'shower.' Outside the building, guards dropped in cyanide pellets. Then they'd blow the cyanide gas out and remove the bodies next door to the crematorium ovens. I think this is what happened to most of the truly psychotic prisoners and those they considered unruly and unmanageable and who, in the Gestapo's opinion, were incorrigibles. But, in my opinion, only relatively few of the inmates I personally examined at Dachau were murdered in this manner. Still, medical facilities were totally inadequate. When people fell hopelessly ill and death was imminent, and when they grew so weak they could no longer work or function, they were taken to the cyanide room for disposal. The Nazi called them 'mercy killings' because there was no hope of them getting well. Actually, the Germans considered them a liability, and extermination was the answer."

Let's examine this quote.

If bodies were burnt into ashes....what exactly the "leading pathologist" has examined to come to his conclusions of what happened in Dachau over several years?

also....if what you suggest is true, why not, than you should go futher and denounce the Nurnberg trial which sentenced to death architects of "final solution"
http://www.holocaustsurvivors.org/da...clopedia&ke=17

Are you ready to make this step?

NoComments · 07-04-2006, 05:16 AM

..and before we go any futher,
get yourself familiar with the differences between Concentration Camps liberated by Americans
and Death Camps liberated by Russians...sorry, it isn't based on Arab sources but on German sources who actually been to both and their testimony is part of Nurnberg trial evidences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_camp

07-03-2006, 09:48 AM	#201
2HousePlague CURATOR Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: the attic Posts: 14,572	200 aitrstrikes -- kaboom! 2hp __________________ tada!

07-03-2006, 10:14 AM	#203
Brujah Beer Money Baron Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: brujah / gmail Posts: 22,157	From Wiki, it doesn't seem like Nazi's minded too much who they killed. ** About 220,000 Sinti and Roma were murdered in the Holocaust (some estimates are as high as 800,000), between a quarter to a half of the European population. Other groups deemed "racially inferior" or "undesirable": Poles (5 million killed, of whom 3 million were Jewish), Serbs (estimates vary between 100,000 and 700,000 killed, mostly by Croat Ustahahaha353;e), Soviet military prisoners of war and civilians on occupied territories including Russians and other East Slavs, the mentally or physically disabled, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists and political dissidents, trade unionists, Freemasons, and some Catholic and Protestant clergy, were also persecuted and killed. Many scholars do not include the Nazi persecution of all of these groups in the definition of the Holocaust, with some scholars limiting the Holocaust to the genocide of the Jews; some to genocide of the Jews, Roma, and disabled; and some to all groups targeted by Nazi racism. Taking all these other groups into account, however, the total death toll rises considerably, estimates generally place the total number of Holocaust victims at 9 to 11 million, though some estimates have been as high as 26 million. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust __________________ Free Premium Domain Lists and Tools at Clickmojo.com For Sale: Obscenity.com**

07-03-2006, 10:23 AM	#205
NoComments Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,953	Brujah, here are the reasons why: http://www.corpse.org/issue_11/broken_news/lee.html Back to the Beginning The roots of the Muslim Brotherhood -- and, in many ways, the Nazi-Muslim axis -- go back to the organization's formation in Egypt in 1928. Marking the start of modern political Islam, or what is often referred to as "Islamic fundamentalism," the Brotherhood from the outset envisioned a time when an Islamic state would prevail in Egypt and other Arab countries, where the organization quickly established local branches. The growth of the Muslim Brotherhood coincided with the rise of fascist movements in Europe -- a parallel noted by Muhammad Sa'id al-'Ashmawy, former chief justice of Egypt's High Criminal Court, who decried "the perversion of Islam" and "the fascistic ideology" that infuses the world view of the Muslim Brothers, "their total (if not totalitarian) way of life ...[and] their fantastical reading of the Koran." ***** Nada, current board chairman of Al Taqwa, had joined the armed branch of the Muslim Brotherhood as a young man in Egypt during World War II. Nada and several of his cohorts in the Sunni Muslim fraternity were recruited by German military intelligence, which sought to undermine British colonial rule in the land of the sphinx. Hassan al-Banna, the Egyptian schoolteacher who founded the Muslim Brotherhood, also collaborated with spies of the Third Reich. Advocating a pan-Islamic insurgency in British-controlled Palestine, the Brotherhood proclaimed their support for the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, in the late 1930s. The Grand Mufti, the preeminent religious figure among Palestinian Muslims, was the most notable Arab leader to seek an alliance with Nazi Germany, which was eager to extend its influence in the Middle East. Although he loathed Arabs (he once described them as "lacquered half-apes who ought to be whipped"), Hitler understood that he and the Mufti shared the same rivals -- the British, the Jews and the Communists. Indicative of the old Arab adage, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend," they met in Berlin, where the Mufti lived in exile during the war. The Mufti agreed to help organize a special Muslim division of the Waffen SS. Powerful radio transmitters were put at the Mufti's disposal so that his pro-Axis propaganda could be heard throughout the Arab world. __________________ *********************************** Click only if you are a traveler**

07-03-2006, 10:34 AM	#206
PostWhore Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,720	HIGH CLASS???? BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHA dude you so craving to be a high class, but that is the last thing in the world that you are. You can not have class, just because you have money. You are still uneducated moron, with no class, and you always be! What are you? Over 40? And you think you have class by arguing with morons on this site? You will never have class..haha look at your nickname, WINETALKER, LOOOOL!!!!!!! What a moron, hahahaah you think you have class, because you drink wine, ahahah what you saw people do that on tv and you think if you do it, you will have class?? Think you are an educated oldtimer, who has class. JIGGA PLEASE! You are an idiot who just stole some money when the time came, there is no class in that. And lets talk about you HIGH EDUCATION, oh wait, you do not have it hahahaha. And your same jokes about sucking dick, as getting as old, as bushes excuses for war. NO CLASS, MAKE A TATOO ON YOUR DUMB FORHEAD NO CLASS! __________________ Ask me how to monetize with adult traffic!

07-03-2006, 10:39 AM	#207
NoComments Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,953	your post is too long, made it 5 liner in the next 5 mins or I'll put you on ignore like the rest of the MORONS. the time on my PC is 1:41, you have 'til 1:46 __________________ ************************************* Click only if you are a traveler**

07-03-2006, 10:42 AM	#208
NoComments Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,953	PostWhore This message is hidden because PostWhore is on your ignore list. what did you say? __________________ ************************************* Click only if you are a traveler**

07-03-2006, 11:56 AM	#213
Brujah Beer Money Baron Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: brujah / gmail Posts: 22,157	Interesting... Benjamin Franklin proposed a clear distinction between "white" Europeans and "swarthy" Europeans, stating that immigration to the newly-born United States should favor the "white" Northern Germans and Englishmen rather than the "swarthy" Southern Germans, French, and Italians. Franklin believed the "white" Europeans to be of a higher degree of culture than that of "swarthy" Europeans. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_theory __________________ Free Premium Domain Lists and Tools at Clickmojo.com For Sale: Obscenity.com

07-03-2006, 12:03 PM	#214
ProducerCashDave Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: In Your Brain Posts: 3,983	This Israeli Palestinian war isnt gonna end for a loooong time __________________ 15 Exclusive Sites By Top Brand Name Studios! $25 PPS \| 50% Revshare \| 5% Webmaster Referral David K. \| Account Manager \| www.ProducerCash.com ICQ: 480757149 \| david AT producercash DOT com TOLL FREE: 877-549-1112

07-03-2006, 09:12 PM	#217
UtahSaints Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,538	Please tell me he did not call himself a high class whore? If I didn?t know any better who Serge Oprano is and was I wouldn't even bother to look in this topic but shiiiiiiit.. __________________ Enjoy Bucks - Enjoy Bucks Last edited by UtahSaints; 07-03-2006 at 09:14 PM..

07-04-2006, 12:21 AM	#219
UtahSaints Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,538	You really expect him to answer this? __________________ Enjoy Bucks - Enjoy Bucks

07-04-2006, 05:16 AM	#222
NoComments Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,953	..and before we go any futher, get yourself familiar with the differences between Concentration Camps liberated by Americans and Death Camps liberated by Russians...sorry, it isn't based on Arab sources but on German sources who actually been to both and their testimony is part of Nurnberg trial evidences. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_camp __________________ ************************************* Click only if you are a traveler**