Israel And Lebanon ... The Real Truth .. (vid)

[p3rsian]

Just watch this with an open mind and decide ....

https://youtube.com/v/249JaIaubVw

[xNetworx]

LOL @ your nick and you making this thread.... Can you say BIAS?

[alexg]

Originally Posted by pimpporn

LOL @ your nick and you making this thread.... Can you say BIAS?

[p3rsian]

grrrrrrrrr

Originally Posted by alexg

lool at your location , can you say idiot ?

[PostWhore]

Originally Posted by p3rsian

grrrrrrrrr


lool at your location , can you say idiot ?

Right on the dot lol!!!

[Farang]

Originally Posted by PostWhore

Right on the dot lol!!!

nice sig!!

[Webby]

Oh sheesh - another load of trolls with an agenda

Back button..

[PostWhore]

actually that guy on the news is pretty much right

you have to be ignorant to not understand his point

[SmokeyTheBear]

[slavdogg]

that idiot is the biggest cocksucker in Enlang

[loxapinedreams]

you want to know something really fucking scary.. i actually know that irish cocksucker..

[notabook]

Originally Posted by AAK

nice sig!!

speaking of sigs... yours is so damn hypnotic. It's scary, I can't keep my eyes off the spinning action.

[Martin]

I like the guy, he has balls to speak the truth.

[Agent 488]

without even clicking the link i know it's george galloway. right?

[Martin]

Originally Posted by budsbabes

without even clicking the link i know it's george galloway. right?

Yeah, one smart Scotsman.

[Webby]

Originally Posted by Martin

I like the guy, he has balls to speak the truth.

hehe.. He's kinda left-wing and can shoot beyond credibility on rare occasions, but never seemed to stop him.

Always wondered if he would be a good negotiator with stubborn idiots.

[baycouples]

Some people don't see the difference between terrorists and military. Military doesn't target innocent people. Terrorists do. If you don't get the difference - then you start thinking like this guy on TV. If you do get the difference - then you are part of the civilized world.

[extreme]

Originally Posted by baycouples

Some people don't see the difference between terrorists and military. Military doesn't target innocent people. Terrorists do. If you don't get the difference - then you start thinking like this guy on TV. If you do get the difference - then you are part of the civilized world.

While that very well is the standard definition it seems that alot more lebanon civilians has been killed by the israel millitary then israel civilians has been killed by the hezbolah "terrorists". Naming doesn't mean alot in theese conflicts, actions speak louder.

As they say in the the first link, one mans terrorist is another mans freedomfighter. Actually hezbollah isn't on the EU terroristgrouplist.

[extreme]

Killing of civilians no matter from what part of the conflict sickens me, but you really have to look beyond simple namingskeems ...

[Webby]

Originally Posted by baycouples

Some people don't see the difference between terrorists and military. Military doesn't target innocent people. Terrorists do. If you don't get the difference - then you start thinking like this guy on TV. If you do get the difference - then you are part of the civilized world.

Where do "terrorists" come from? Do they wake up on Monday morning and want to give up their time just for the pleasure of it and become "terrorists"?

Why do you think there were attacks on 9/11 and before? Why do you think Hezbollah is attacking Israel? Why do you think the IRA bombed the UK for decades?

It says a lot for the "civilized world" that there is even such a thing as "terrorists". Obviously it's not as civilized as we may wish to think, otherwise there would be no reason for anyone to become a "terrorist".

Dressing up guys in uniforms and trying to claim these are the "legal version" and all others are "illegal" is almost adopting the habits of an ostrich. The "military" kills far more innocent people on mass than any terrorist group on the planet. It is also not unheard of for the military to simply murder individuals in countries of occupation.

There was never any problem supporting "terrorists" in the past - from the IRA to bin Laden against the Russian army. What's changed?

As long as there is oppression, threats, occupation blah - there will be "terrorists" - it's nothing new. It's never a simple one-sided story.

George may be vocal and perhaps a bit blunt, but he's not stupid.

End of rant

[baycouples]

Originally Posted by extreme

As they say in the the first link, one mans terrorist is another mans

People who usually say that are usually the terrorists.

[Webby]

Originally Posted by baycouples

People who usually say that are usually the terrorists.

Sorry man - but that is just total junk.

[baycouples]

Originally Posted by extreme

While that very well is the standard definition it seems that alot more lebanon civilians has been killed by the israel millitary then israel civilians has been killed by the hezbolah "terrorists". Naming doesn't mean alot in theese conflicts, actions speak louder.

Same with US vs Teleban, but where do you start counting? Have you counted the Israelies that Hezbolah has killed over the years before a month ago when you saw it on CNN? Just because they don't report it on TV - it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There is a very good reason why Israel has decided to go for this.

[baycouples]

Originally Posted by Webby

Where do "terrorists" come from? Do they wake up on Monday morning and want to give up their time just for the pleasure of it and become "terrorists"?

Why do you think there were attacks on 9/11 and before? Why do you think Hezbollah is attacking Israel? Why do you think the IRA bombed the UK for decades?

It says a lot for the "civilized world" that there is even such a thing as "terrorists". Obviously it's not as civilized as we may wish to think, otherwise there would be no reason for anyone to become a "terrorist".

Dressing up guys in uniforms and trying to claim these are the "legal version" and all others are "illegal" is almost adopting the habits of an ostrich. The "military" kills far more innocent people on mass than any terrorist group on the planet. It is also not unheard of for the military to simply murder individuals in countries of occupation.

There was never any problem supporting "terrorists" in the past - from the IRA to bin Laden against the Russian army. What's changed?

As long as there is oppression, threats, occupation blah - there will be "terrorists" - it's nothing new. It's never a simple one-sided story.

George may be vocal and perhaps a bit blunt, but he's not stupid.

End of rant

I don't think you're very educated in terms of history. That comment that you made about bin Laden's people killing Russians shows that. If you'd knew anything about that conflict you wouldn't be stupid enough to say something like that.

Also, you haven't read my post. So, let me repeat it in a shorter version so you can read it in its entirety before hitting the reply button:

TERRORISTS: target civilians and innocent people on purpose
MILITARY: never target civillians or innocent people ( yes, innocent people die during military actions but never on purpose )

[Webby]

Originally Posted by baycouples

Same with US vs Teleban, but where do you start counting? Have you counted the Israelies that Hezbolah has killed over the years before a month ago when you saw it on CNN? Just because they don't report it on TV - it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There is a very good reason why Israel has decided to go for this.

You are on the "us" and "them" scenario already. The same could be argued from both sides - and both would be valid.

[baycouples]

Originally Posted by Webby

Sorry man - but that is just total junk.

No, it's not. Simply because there is a very simply and precise definition of who terrorists are. It seems that you're the only one who doesn't get it. I've outlined it to you twice now.

Good thing about definitions are that they are the same for everybody.

[extreme]

Originally Posted by baycouples

People who usually say that are usually the terrorists.

Just pointing out the pointlessness of theese labels. If anyone killing civilians in a conflict is a "terrorist" about every millitary power in about every war that has ever been fought has been "terrorists". Killing innocent civilians always sucks ass, but look through the labelingpropaganda here please.

Naming the "enemy", making him out as as evil and ugly as you possible can has always been part of warpropaganda. And you probably get alot more of the american/israel versions of middle east conflicts then the "arab" version. It's never black and white, even though the human mind likes it that way.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...23714384920696 .. worth a look.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli...ed_territories
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Lebanon_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...Resolution_242

.. worth a read.

[baycouples]

Originally Posted by Webby

You are on the "us" and "them" scenario already.

No, I'm not!! Unlike you I don't think I know where the TRUTH lies. However, I do know where it doesn't lie. And the truth is that Hazbulah is a terrorist organization.

[baycouples]

Originally Posted by extreme

Just pointing out the pointlessness of theese labels. If anyone killing civilians in a conflict is a "terrorist" about every millitary power in about every war that has ever been fought has been "terrorists". Killing innocent civilians always sucks ass, but look through the labelingpropaganda here please.

Are you for real? I just told you twice what a terrorist is and what it is NOT! And you've missed the whole point!!! OK, let me try one more time:

Terrorists kill innocent civilians ON PURPOSE. "ON PURPOSE" is the part that you didn't read. You didn't read it twice now! But it's important. So, please understand that only those who kill innocent people on purpose are terrorists. But killing innocent people on accident is different ( though still horrible and should not happen as much as possible )

[extreme]

Originally Posted by baycouples

Are you for real? I just told you twice what a terrorist is and what it is NOT! And you've missed the whole point!!! OK, let me try one more time:

Terrorists kill innocent civilians ON PURPOSE. "ON PURPOSE" is the part that you didn't read. You didn't read it twice now! But it's important. So, please understand that only those who kill innocent people on purpose are terrorists. But killing innocent people on accident is different ( though still horrible and should not happen as much as possible )

I know what you wrote. But you see things in black and white, while they're not. Let me try to make my point clearer.

For example, You wouldn't call the israel army terrorists right?

Still about every day media is reporting about lebaneese civilian deaths.
Now what, about a month into the conflict lebanon civilians have died about every day. According to most media now counting on 700+. Dont you think Israel KNOWS civilians are getting killed, of course they do, they just dont care. The israel army think they're expendable cause they have a higher purpose, lebanese civilian blood isn't worth much to them.

I would call that killing civilians on purpopse too, just as hezbollah is killing israel civillians.

[Webby]

Originally Posted by baycouples

I don't think you're very educated in terms of history. That comment that you made about bin Laden's people killing Russians shows that. If you'd knew anything about that conflict you wouldn't be stupid enough to say something like that.

Also, you haven't read my post. So, let me repeat it in a shorter version so you can read it in its entirety before hitting the reply button:

TERRORISTS: target civilians and innocent people on purpose
MILITARY: never target civillians or innocent people ( yes, innocent people die during military actions but never on purpose )

I can and did read - very carefully. Kindly do not be so fucking arrogant as to assume anything about me.

Back to why are there "terrorists - was the sun not shining one day and they decided to play "terrorist games"?

So.. why did you provide funds to the IRA? Why did you provide funds and support to Afghanistan (and bin Laden)? Why do you keep selling arms more than all other countries combined - to fight "terrorists"?

Sure.. I hear ya loud and clear and understand - but don't sit on your ass and be flippant on your opinions of others where if they get your concept of conflict, "then you are part of the civilized world". That version may be easy to label, pigeonhole and gain your approval - but it's not a civilized world.

[extreme]

I do agree with your textbook definition of the terms.. Im just pointing out that they're pretty meaningless in most situations, for example in the ongoing war =).

Im off to McD for some breakfast, bbl. I'll make sure to check in for any more discussions when Im back =).

[UniversalPass Pete]

Much of what he is saying is the truth!

[Webby]

Originally Posted by baycouples

No, I'm not!! Unlike you I don't think I know where the TRUTH lies. However, I do know where it doesn't lie. And the truth is that Hazbulah is a terrorist organization.

Sorry man... nada cred.

You started off advocating on behalf of Israel and whining about Israeli deaths. That is sure sad shit, but there are two sides, and both have valid points. If you are talking about death tolls in this conflict - there are over four times more deaths in Lebanon - mainly "innocent civilians" and children.

To continue this crap is pointless and a bit of a diversion - the subject was your comments about Galloway. He may be blunt and appear outrageous at times, but he's not stupid nor is he uncivilized. Live with it.

[SmokeyTheBear]

Originally Posted by baycouples

Some people don't see the difference between terrorists and military. Military doesn't target innocent people. Terrorists do. If you don't get the difference - then you start thinking like this guy on TV. If you do get the difference - then you are part of the civilized world.

and somehow in all this you seem to miss the fact that the people supposedly ONLY AIMING at civilians are killing LESS people than the people who are supposedly ONLY AIMING at the military..

so let me get this straight.. when you have a REAL military and kickass weapons and training etc and only aim at military , you manage to kill MORE civilians... cmon now dont be so naive..

lets be realistic.. whoever is winning gets to call the other side the "enemy" and "terrorists" ... .. they are both terrorists

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by baycouples

TERRORISTS: target civilians and innocent people on purpose
MILITARY: never target civillians or innocent people ( yes, innocent people die during military actions but never on purpose )

Totally agree to that definition, but you on the other hand do not seem to listen to what extreme and webby are saying...

If TERRORISTS are defined by targeting civilians and innocent people, how come Hizballah has killed so extremely less civilians than the israel military?

When the Israel Military targets an appartment complex in Shiite regions of Lebanon, is that not targeting civillians?

The military has a simple solution to your logic and since your logic is this way they can blind you easily... all they have to say is that there was one terrorist in that building and thats who they targeted.

The terrorists have a problem now, since you are so biased on the definition that even if they target military and a few civilians die you'll start running around they actually targeted the civilians and out of pure luck the military people died in it too.

You should start thinking about this stuff some more and not hide your logic behind simple definitions that let you and others twist the logic to make it seem ok in your eyes just so you do not have to worry about the bad stuff happening over there right now.

[notabook]

The founding fathers of America were terrorists, and there was nothing wrong with that. They did what was necessary to stop tyranny. Some would call them guerilla fighters, I call them like I see them: terrorists. Doesn't change my respect for them though. Terrorism by itself isn?t a bad thing, it?s when it?s a group of extremists that commit the acts of terror does terrorism receive such a negative stigma behind it.

[Webby]

Originally Posted by SmokeyTheBear

lets be realistic.. whoever is winning gets to call the other side the "enemy" and "terrorists" ... .. they are both terrorists

Kinda agree on that one Smokey

It's odd in a way - there is at least one webmaster on this board who has tolerated what is known as "terrorism" for decades - and I missed being blown by one of their bombs once. Do ya feel they are "evil"? Na... hold no grudges and can also see their side of the story which goes back decades. They were brought up in that environment and their "war" continued thru their childhood and then then joined a "terrorist organization". Truth is - they are no different to you or I - apart from the fact that they feel they are "oppressed" and want to fight for their "cause".

In many ways - it's the same for many "terrorist organizations". Sure - there is nothing good about killing people, but that applies to any killing - anywhere.

It's a complex subject, but kinda flippant to describe them as evil (in the case I know of - na, they are not evil - you know when you see evil), - labels are far too easy to attach to any conflict.

[Webby]

Originally Posted by notabook

I call them like I see them: terrorists.

OK then

[baycouples]

Originally Posted by extreme

Dont you think Israel KNOWS civilians are getting killed, of course they do, they just dont care. The israel army think they're expendable cause they have a higher purpose, lebanese civilian blood isn't worth much to them.

I would call that killing civilians on purpopse too, just as hezbollah is killing israel civillians.

Then you'd be wrong. Knowledge is not the same as Purpose. When you know about something that you did wrong - it does not mean that you meant to do it. As a matter of fact Israel has appologized for some of the calateral damage it has done. Something terrorists don't usually do.

[baycouples]

Originally Posted by extreme

I do agree with your textbook definition of the terms.. Im just pointing out that they're pretty meaningless in most situations, for example in the ongoing war =).

I agree with that. Unfortunately I don't think either one of us in position to do anything more than have a meaningless conversation.

But as I said before - I do NOT know the right answer to this situation. But I do know what the wrong answers are. I know! Not very helpful...

[elron]

Originally Posted by p3rsian

Just watch this with an open mind and decide ....

https://youtube.com/v/249JaIaubVw

this video has a white beard you dumb idiot , next time bring original material so we'll discuss about the video and not about your ignorance

[baycouples]

Originally Posted by Nathan

If TERRORISTS are defined by targeting civilians and innocent people, how come Hizballah has killed so extremely less civilians than the israel military?

Cause they are not very good at it.

Originally Posted by Nathan

When the Israel Military targets an appartment complex in Shiite regions of Lebanon, is that not targeting civillians?

It is if that was the case. But it's not. They do not "target an apartment complex" - they target a terrorist who is hiding in an apartment complex like a true coward.

Originally Posted by Nathan

The military has a simple solution to your logic and since your logic is this way they can blind you easily... all they have to say is that there was one terrorist in that building and thats who they targeted.

I'm not saying that their strategy is right ( see my above postings ) - I'm simply saying that Hezbulah is a terrorist organization ( since the original post video was claiming that it's not )

[baycouples]

Originally Posted by Webby

You started off advocating on behalf of Israel and whining about Israeli deaths.

Then you got me all wrong. I'm not advocating on behalf of Israel. I'm advocating on behalf of common sense.

[WWC-Pajio]

...that's so fuckin true!

[iggysick]

Originally Posted by baycouples

Then you got me all wrong. I'm not advocating on behalf of Israel. I'm advocating on behalf of common sense.

Common sense... Hummmmm...

It is if that was the case. But it's not. They do not "target an apartment complex" - they target a terrorist who is hiding in an apartment complex like a true coward.

So you're saying that after Israel started to bombard all buildings in Shiite regions of Lebanon all "terrorist" took a hide in those buildings?! Common sense would say that they would take hide somewhere else and not in buildings that become obvious target for bombarding.

[minimouse]

When the Israeli military hits civilians they treat it as a failure, when terrorists hit civilians they treat it as success.

And yes hizballah terrorists do hide in bulidings and hide their missles in civilian houses and apartment bulidings.

[Gunni]

Originally Posted by baycouples

Then you got me all wrong. I'm not advocating on behalf of Israel. I'm advocating on behalf of common sense.

Dude yo're talking about common sense and openly say that Isreal doesn't kill civilians on purpose!
So if they want to take out some "terrorist" and know he'll be in a building full of innocent people but decide to blow it to pices anyway is that not killing innocents on purpose?
Collateral damage my ass

[Webby]

Originally Posted by baycouples

I'm simply saying that Hezbulah is a terrorist organization ( since the original post video was claiming that it's not )

Fine - you are entitled to your opinion as to whether Hezbollah is a "terrorist organization" or not. Five nations consider Hezbollah as a terrorist organization while most people on this planet do not.

I don't really care what labels are stuck on any party (that is too simplied and a mechanism used by govts), - and not advocating either for or against Hezbollah or Israel, - but because you think Hezbollah is a terrorist organization does not matter.

Both sides in this conflict can produce 400 reasons why each has a valid claim - and these can be justified.

It is also an extreme simplification to claim conflict can be defined as:

TERRORISTS: target civilians and innocent people on purpose
MILITARY: never target civillians or innocent people

Each conflict is like a fingerprint - entirely different - and reality in each conflict can change that definition. Your comments about eg the "military" never targets civilians?? On the contrary, in this conflict we have seen many instances of a military targetting civilians. Each day Israeli fighters are targetting as many vehicles on roads as possible and blowing them up. There is no distinction between motorcycles and buses/trucks - that started almost on day one of this conflict. The Lebanese people were instructed to leave areas or suffer shelling - they no longer leave by using transport - they have to walk since there is a high chance they will be bombed.

Attempting to justify this as "collateral damage" to like using a mouthwash. McVey described the deaths at Oklahoma as "collateral damage" - he was trained by the military and accustomed to "sweetening terminology". Dramatic titles for operations in Iraq - eg "Shock and Awe", killed many 1000's of people, but that's "collateral damage" and "legal".

It is easy to sit in a totally different part of the world and have opinions. In reality, 99% chance, if the same scenario was within your area - you'd do exactly the same thing. If a bomb wiped out your family or a family member was illegally held as a "prisoner of war" or a "political prisoner" by another nation for years on end - you'd prob blow them to hell and back. Any Israel whose family suffered from suicide bombings would prob feel the same way.

It is ironic that there has been little moral objection to funding groups, which by your definition, were "terrorists" in the 20th century, but in the 21st century they appear to now be a major source of concern and something to have an opinion on. The world never did change because of the first "terrorist" attack on US soil - that existed long before even the US existed.

Truth is.. "we" know fuck all about this conflict, apart from international treaties and what is published in the media and what govts try to tell us what we think. Snippets of "justification" in movies is just that - whether it's Galloway or some spokesperson for Lebanon or Israel. The people that do know are those on the ground.

Nuff said

[baycouples]

Originally Posted by iggysick

So you're saying that after Israel started to bombard all buildings in Shiite regions of Lebanon all "terrorist" took a hide in those buildings?!

That's not what I'm saying. But are you saying that Israel has decided to target random apartment complexes with innocent people for fun?