Please tell me how the US can send non americans to court over the gambling issues

[Myst]

http://today.reuters.com/news/articl...c=66&type=qcna

NEW YORK, Jan 24 (Reuters) - A U.S. judge on Wednesday set Feb. 14 as the date for a preliminary hearing for the two founders of UK payment processing company NETeller Plc (NLR.L: Quote, Profile , Research) who are charged with handling billions of dollars in gambling wagers and winnings.

The decision sets the stage for further federal court proceedings in the case against NETeller founders, Canadians John Lefebvre, 55, and Stephen Lawrence, 46, who were arrested earlier this month as U.S. authorities continued their crackdown on Internet gambling.

The magistrate judge at the U.S. Court for the Southern District of New York extended Lefebvre's $5 million bail during a brief hearing on Wednesday. Lawrence appeared in court last week, when his bail was also extended.


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Under the terms of the bail, Lefebvre has surrendered his travel documents and is restricted to traveling within parts of New York and California.

The government would have to file formal charges before the Feb. 14 hearing, said Lefebvre's lawyer Vincent Marella.

Lefebvre declined to comment after the hearing.

If convicted, Lawrence and Lefebvre each face up to 20 years in prison.

Money transfer companies such as NETeller, based in the Isle of Man, allow gambling companies to transfer money collected from U.S. bettors to overseas bank accounts.

Most online gaming executives have avoided traveling to the United States since the crackdown on Internet gambling began last year with the arrest of BETonSPORTS' (BSS.L: Quote, Profile , Research) David Carruthers.

So NetTeller is UK based, Lefebvre and Lawrence are Canadian.. so why are they being held accountable for US laws?

[budz]

.::nwo::.

[nosey]

"Money transfer companies such as NETeller, based in the Isle of Man, allow gambling companies to transfer money collected from U.S. bettors to overseas bank accounts"

[DateDoc]

if you do business in the US - as in accept deposits, etc. in this case - you are subject to US law.

[wyldworx]

nosey and Busterporn, hit the nail on the head. 2257? Why are you not pissed with that law we non-Americans have to abide by also?

[madawgz]

they made the mistake of being in the US

[Dvae]

Originally Posted by wyldworx

nosey and Busterporn, hit the nail on the head. 2257? Why are you not pissed with that law we non-Americans have to abide by also?

Get real!
Has nothing to do with 2257

Ever heard of Las Vegas?
How about Atlantic City?
Riverboat Gambling?
Indian Reservations?

The 'gambling lobby' has friends in high places.

[Myst]

Originally Posted by BusterPorn

if you do business in the US - as in accept deposits, etc. in this case - you are subject to US law.

So if a country has fucked up laws, and you do business with them, youre still subject to them?
Thats absolutely ridiculous.
Say country X has a policy that if you sell porn online, you go to jail. Bob from country X buys a membership to Jordan Capri, does that mean Lightspeed goes to jail?

Similarly, if you have a gambling site or have a money transfer company, does that mean you go to jail if an american uses your site?

[DateDoc]

Originally Posted by Myst

So if a country has fucked up laws, and you do business with them, youre still subject to them?
Thats absolutely ridiculous.
Say country X has a policy that if you sell porn online, you go to jail. Bob from country X buys a membership to Jordan Capri, does that mean Lightspeed goes to jail?

Similarly, if you have a gambling site, does that mean you go to jail if an american uses your site?

he could well if he goes to that country and that is their law

[dynastoned]

Originally Posted by Dvae

Get real!
Has nothing to do with 2257

Ever heard of Las Vegas?
How about Atlantic City?
Riverboat Gambling?
Indian Reservations?

The 'gambling lobby' has friends in high places.

same shit i thought..

[Webby]

The US government has a tendency to assume much about gaming, - unlike any other nation. Also unlike any other nation, there is a difference in US domestic gaming laws which are not unlike prohibition day attempts to control and are a feeble attempt to protect the US gaming industry.

Any individual or corp entity has one set of laws to abide and these are the laws of the country in which they operate or reside. No other laws apply - that was never a deal.

The US has elected to arrest citizens of other nations for gaming offenses if these citizens visit/pass thru or fly on-route over US jurisdiction. No court in another nation would agree to the extradition of their citizens to any other country for "gaming offences". "Gaming" is not an "extraditable offense".

Only my , but smell the US is totally entitled to arrest people on their soil - BUT... there is sure a tinge of arrogance in doing so, and what is good for one, is good for the other, and there is no reason why any other country should not do the same.

Transacting remote business with other nations is not the basis of being subject to the laws of these nations. The legal jurisdiction of transactions is the place stated on any TOS or where any business is actually based - and that is not in 150 countries over the globe - it is one country and normally the legal juridiction of a corporation/company.

On the gaming issue, (this takes too long to say, but simplified...) the US is currently in violation of WTO treaties regarding the movement of gaming funds. The Wire Act, Travel Act and the recently passed gaming act are all in conflict with treaties ratified by the US. The recent arrests of individuals is the exact reason which violates WTO rulings - kinda ironic ;-) The WTO is due to issue final penalty/sanction/whatever rules against the US for violating WTO global trading treaties.

Meantime, the largest gaming market the US has for Vegas is based on Asian visitors who fly there to dump their money. Instead of flying around 15 hours to Vegas, Asian gamblers will shortly have gaming facilities in Macao and other regions.

Bottom line? All bullshit. The US attempted to protect it's domestic market, meanwhile other nations welcome gaming business, both online and bricks and mortar - and the US will lose out of the global gaming biz. Insane? Sure, but some never learn.

[Webby]

Originally Posted by Myst

So if a country has fucked up laws, and you do business with them, youre still subject to them?

Of course not Myst

You are only subject to one set of laws - the place you reside or operate a company. There never was any law which places an individual/corp liable to the laws of any other nation.

[Webby]

Originally Posted by wyldworx

nosey and Busterporn, hit the nail on the head. 2257? Why are you not pissed with that law we non-Americans have to abide by also?

There is no reason for any "non-American" to comply with 2257 or any law of another country if that "non-American" has no base or commercial activity/facility in the US.

Obviously, it is relevant to comply with the laws where you live and/or run your company. All other laws are irrelevant.

[DateDoc]

Originally Posted by Webby

There is no reason for any "non-American" to comply with 2257 or any law of another country if that "non-American" has no base or commercial activity/facility in the US.

Obviously, it is relevant to comply with the laws where you live and/or run your company. All other laws are irrelevant.

so you would need to block all US IPs from accessing your site!

[RawAlex]

Webby, you are correct. HOWEVER, neteller was the transaction method for the money for gambling to move from the US to the casinos in question. Therefore, they were part of a business transaction that happened in the US, and therefore are bound by US law for those transactions.

If neteller had not accepted money for gambling from US customers, they would not have an issue, because moving money from the UK to an offshore casino, example, isn't subject to US law. They are only in trouble for the transactions that started in the US.

[Webby]

Originally Posted by BusterPorn

so you would need to block all US IPs from accessing your site!

It never was the responsibilty of anyone to block anything BP - the answer is it is totally irrelevant. There is no obligation to pay any attention to the laws other countries on the planet - they are not applicable.

If any country wants to block IP's - that is their problem and up to them to pay for it. If China, Brazil, the US or anyone has a problem - they can deal with it.

[securedata]

china will put the US in its place very soon, its out of control americans are not god

[starpimps]

Originally Posted by securedata

china will put the US in its place very soon, its out of control americans are not god

lol china needs american consumers mmmk

[Webby]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Webby, you are correct. HOWEVER, neteller was the transaction method for the money for gambling to move from the US to the casinos in question. Therefore, they were part of a business transaction that happened in the US, and therefore are bound by US law for those transactions.

If neteller had not accepted money for gambling from US customers, they would not have an issue, because moving money from the UK to an offshore casino, example, isn't subject to US law. They are only in trouble for the transactions that started in the US.

Hear ya! Sure... Neteller PLC is a UK based corp and has no liability under US laws and have no business base in the US.

Basically they were remote transacting same as any other internet business. They never agreed to any US laws or the laws of any other country. There legal venue is the UK.

The fact that US domestic laws were an issue is not the responsibilty of foreign enterprises - but sure, can see there is an option for the US to arrest a couple of it's officers while on US soil - they are free to do this.

[Webby]

Originally Posted by BusterPorn

so you would need to block all US IPs from accessing your site!

BTW BP... Would argue that the "point of sale" or "transaction" is not in any other country, but in the legal venue of whatever corp the deal is with. This would normally be the "jurisdiction" of that corp.

In other words, ya buy a CD from an Italian corp, both the legal venue and the jurisdiction is Italy - whether you are ordering from Japan, Canada or China. There is no legal redress in Japan, Canada or China if your CD never gets delivered - the only redress is the "legal venue" of the corp you are deal with - ie Italian courts.

[DateDoc]

Originally Posted by Webby

BTW BP... Would argue that the "point of sale" or "transaction" is not in any other country, but in the legal venue of whatever corp the deal is with. This would normally be the "jurisdiction" of that corp.

In other words, ya buy a CD from an Italian corp, both the legal venue and the jurisdiction is Italy - whether you are ordering from Japan, Canada or China. There is no legal redress in Japan, Canada or China if your CD never gets delivered - the only redress is the "legal venue" of the corp you are deal with - ie Italian courts.

It is not that I am saying you are wrong I am just pointing out how US Law is written. If the funds originated in the US then US Law applies for the transaction regardless of which jurisdiction the company selling the goods/service is located in.

By applying your view I could wire 100k from a US Bank to Columbia to buy coke and have it shipped to France and US Law has no jurisdiction over me. Granted that is not comparing apples to apples but if you want to do business where the funds for the transaction originate in the US you have to abide by US law.

[DaddyHalbucks]

If you want the US dollars, meaning you do business in the US, you are subject to US law.

Seems simple enough.

[wyldworx]

Originally Posted by Dvae

Get real!
Has nothing to do with 2257

Ever heard of Las Vegas?
How about Atlantic City?
Riverboat Gambling?
Indian Reservations?

The 'gambling lobby' has friends in high places.

Before quoting someone of the english language, how about learning it yourself?

[wyldworx]

I said nothing of it having anything to do with it, I was merely shoving a very good point of a total different subject all together....Ever heard of simile's and metaphors etc.? Who is the fucking moron.....

[Sosa]

all these fucking gambling laws are fucking stupid

[Webby]

Originally Posted by BusterPorn

It is not that I am saying you are wrong I am just pointing out how US Law is written. If the funds originated in the US then US Law applies for the transaction regardless of which jurisdiction the company selling the goods/service is located in.

By applying your view I could wire 100k from a US Bank to Columbia to buy coke and have it shipped to France and US Law has no jurisdiction over me. Granted that is not comparing apples to apples but if you want to do business where the funds for the transaction originate in the US you have to abide by US law.

I hear ya Buster :-)

That is the whole crux of the issue - "jurisdiction" is everything. The legal venue is the only place any laws are of value. Example... ya got a base in.. Iceland. Someone orders from eg Brazil and funds are sent from Brazil to the corp in Iceland. The legal venue is Iceland and not Brazil. There is no point in the person in Brazil relying on Spanish Civil Law to seek redress from a corp in Iceland - the Brazil court system has no (wait for that word again ) jurisdiction.

In the US instance, if that is the law, it's totally unenforceable in the US and the only place where redress can take place is.. eg Iceland.

The drugs transaction is a different scenario for one main reason. Drugs activities are (another term with meaning) "extraditable offenses" and there are mutual cooperation treaties in existance and liason with law officers in the US and France.

One thing worth noting... unless an alleged offense is an offense in both countries - there can not be an "extradictable offense". Common serious crimes like murder, drugs, arms offenses blah are obvious extradictable offenses. Lesser offenses are not. If eg... a US citizen is involved in gaming operations in another country and where this is in violation of US law, but it is not an offense in the jurisdiction of the gaming corp, there is no point in the US attempting to extradict that individual since he falls under the law of the country of the corp jurisdiction - not the US (although he may have violated US law and is gonna have a hard time renewing his passport *s*)

Bottom line.. irrespective of any US law, no corp or individual who operates/resides in another country has any obligation under US law or the laws of any other country. (Excepting obvious cross border criminal activity).

[Webby]

Originally Posted by DaddyHalbucks

If you want the US dollars, meaning you do business in the US, you are subject to US law.

Seems simple enough.

Doing business "in" the US is not the same as doing business remotely with the US. Assume you mean not actually present in the US ... So... wrong DH - US law means nothing elsewhere - same with all other nations.

Simple enough??

[DateDoc]

Originally Posted by Webby

Bottom line.. irrespective of any US law, no corp or individual who operates/resides in another country has any obligation under US law or the laws of any other country. (Excepting obvious cross border criminal activity).

Yes, you are not going to get extradited but if you come to the US or any of it's territories you may well be arrested.

[Webby]

Originally Posted by BusterPorn

Yes, you are not going to get extradited but if you come to the US or any of it's territories you may well be arrested.

In the instance of gaming - sure. For normal commercial activities - no, since there is no criminal offense.

[Webby]

Originally Posted by DaddyHalbucks

If you want the US dollars, meaning you do business in the US, you are subject to US law.

Seems simple enough.

BTW DH... When you take an order from.... eg Europe or New Zealand, make sure you understand their laws, since according to you, you are subject to these laws

Sound simple??

[Myst]

So in a sentence, you are subject to the laws of the country whose soil you are standing on.

Correct? You can be based in the UK and accept money from US citizens for gambling as long as you yourself are standing on UK soil. Once you are in the states you can be arrested. Do I have this straight?

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by Myst

So if a country has fucked up laws, and you do business with them, youre still subject to them?
Thats absolutely ridiculous.
Say country X has a policy that if you sell porn online, you go to jail. Bob from country X buys a membership to Jordan Capri, does that mean Lightspeed goes to jail?

Similarly, if you have a gambling site or have a money transfer company, does that mean you go to jail if an american uses your site?

Exactly can you imagine the uproar that would happen if a US Internet pornographer was arrested while flying via Dubia on an Emirates airoplane?

Bush would be sending tanks.

Sorry got that wrong, he would do fuck all as they have oil, change it for Pakistan Airlines via Islamabad. I'm assuming porn is illegal in Pakistan, but sure tou get the principla.

Just another example of American arrogance.

[Webby]

Originally Posted by Myst

So in a sentence, you are subject to the laws of the country whose soil you are standing on.

Correct? You can be based in the UK and accept money from US citizens for gambling as long as you yourself are standing on UK soil. Once you are in the states you can be arrested. Do I have this straight?

100% correct Myst

You can be standing... almost anywhere except the US (assuming you have a gaming license in some countries) and take bets from all over the globe and this is totally legal. (Also assuming you are not a US citizen).

BTW.. Canada is one of the countries (along with Antigua, UK and some others) who started the WTO case against the US on restrictions of movement of gaming funds.

[Webby]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Exactly can you imagine the uproar that would happen if a US Internet pornographer was arrested while flying via Dubia on an Emirates airoplane?

Bush would be sending tanks.

Sorry got that wrong, he would do fuck all as they have oil, change it for Pakistan Airlines via Islamabad. I'm assuming porn is illegal in Pakistan, but sure tou get the principla.

Just another example of American arrogance.

Ya mean another 150K troops, two carriers and 300 F16's to spread democracy and liberate whatever country and allow porn??

[niche25]

If the US can't tax, we rape you up the ass. We should stick that on the Statue of Liberty...

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by DaddyHalbucks

If you want the US dollars, meaning you do business in the US, you are subject to US law.

Seems simple enough.

Does that mean if you want EU Euros you are subject to EU laws? GBP subject to British laws, Japanese Yen subject to Japanese Yen, AU dollars subject to .......................

I'm sure you get the gist of it.

Why is it always a one way street?

[Webby]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Why is it always a one way street?

Just because they want to believe it Paul. From the numbers of times this gets mentioned, it's obviously something in the air that creates these myths ;-)

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by Webby

Just because they want to believe it Paul. From the numbers of times this gets mentioned, it's obviously something in the air that creates these myths ;-)

No it's because they spoon feed morons with "The US is Gods own country and is always right." From birth.

It's called TV.

[Webby]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

No it's because they spoon feed morons with "The US is Gods own country and is always right." From birth.

It's called TV.

Well.. you said it - I was trying to express it the delicate way

[Paul Markham]

but it's a serious question. Why do Americans always bleat about we should conform to there ways when we do business or visit them. Yet are totally unable to conform to ours.

Couple of years ago Eva, my Mum who lives in California and I were in Rome and met some Americans. The topic of the conversation was their travels around Europe. They were so lucky in London because there was a MacDonald's and Pizza Hut close to the hotel, Paris they hated because no one spoke English and Rome was alright because they could eat spaghetti. I'm sure they think spaghetti and pizzas are American inventions.

But it shows an attitude so well. Travel 6,000 miles to eat pizzas and burgers in the food capitols of the world.

[Mutt]

wonder what the US would do in the case of a US pornographer who sold porn online to somebody in a country where porn is illegal and visits that country and is arrested and sentenced to 20 years in jail? maybe cuz it's a pornographer they wouldn't do much to help the pornographer out.

[bliket]

Don't fuck with the USA, myst. Fuck the canadians and their shit hole!

[bliket]

btw, I didn't read anything you said...

[Myst]

Originally Posted by bliket

Don't fuck with the USA, myst. Fuck the canadians and their shit hole!

Shouldnt you be in jail

[CyberHustler]

is this whole thread worth reading? lmk

[bliket]

Originally Posted by Myst

Shouldnt you be in jail

I should for assaulting you with a crowbar!

[kenny]

The united states was getting hit heavy by the those outside gaming companies.

Every other commercial on TV was damn gambling related it seemed. None of this probably would have happened if it didn't get so rampant.

I always wondered how it worked being that gambling has been illegal in most of the US since forever. I see now it doesn't work.

[joehoya]

Originally Posted by Mutt

wonder what the US would do in the case of a US pornographer who sold porn online to somebody in a country where porn is illegal and visits that country and is arrested and sentenced to 20 years in jail? maybe cuz it's a pornographer they wouldn't do much to help the pornographer out.

Seeing as how it is a pornographer, the government would do nothing.

[Fizzgig]

Were they arrested while travelling in the U.S.?

[joehoya]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

but it's a serious question. Why do Americans always bleat about we should conform to there ways when we do business or visit them. Yet are totally unable to conform to ours.

Couple of years ago Eva, my Mum who lives in California and I were in Rome and met some Americans. The topic of the conversation was their travels around Europe. They were so lucky in London because there was a MacDonald's and Pizza Hut close to the hotel, Paris they hated because no one spoke English and Rome was alright because they could eat spaghetti. I'm sure they think spaghetti and pizzas are American inventions.

But it shows an attitude so well. Travel 6,000 miles to eat pizzas and burgers in the food capitols of the world.

Just thought I would mention something about this post. A lot of people get a distorted view of ALL Americans, based on those they meet who travel internationally. Keep in mind that this represents a VERY small segment of our society.

For the most part travel to Europe is the domain of white, upper-middleclass suburbanites and urbanites. Those same folks that go to France and eat nothing but McDonald's and other than a quick trip to the Eiffel Tower stay in the hotel, when they return, they are the one's who brag about how cultured and refined they are by being "well traveled". My personal opinion is that the average European would get along much better with the average "non-traveled" middleclass and working class American than they realize. Certainly much better than the American Tourists they meet.