Request for informtion: PROXY.ORG

[fr0gman]

I am in the process of preparing legal action against the owners for www.proxy.org. The problem is that they are hiding behind a maildrop located in Pamona, NY. If anyone has any information on the group I would certainly appreciate a little help.

So far I have been able to come up with the following:

The company name is: GRC WorldWide
They are hosted at: ThePlanet
The Account Name at ThePlanet is: tcooper

Thanks

[RawAlex]

If you have attempted to serve them at the address on the domain and it isn't valid, you should contact the registrar and ask for their help. The registrar is Moniker, and I am sure Chris could be convinced to help you out.

The address given is a mailboxes etc location:

MAILBOXES ETC
1581 ROUTE 202
POMONA, NY 10970
(845) 362-7200

That addresses should be servable, or at least reachable with a registered letter. If it isn't valid, then complain to the registrar that the address on the registration isn't valid.

Also, EASYDNS.COM is the DNS host for them. You may want to contact them and see what they can do. You may have the potential to drag each of those people into any lawsuit, which would likely encourage them to turn over the owners of the site to get their asses out of the line of fire.

Good luck.

[fr0gman]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

If you have attempted to serve them at the address on the domain and it isn't valid, you should contact the registrar and ask for their help. The registrar is Moniker, and I am sure Chris could be convinced to help you out.

The address given is a mailboxes etc location:

MAILBOXES ETC
1581 ROUTE 202
POMONA, NY 10970
(845) 362-7200

That addresses should be servable, or at least reachable with a registered letter. If it isn't valid, then complain to the registrar that the address on the registration isn't valid.

Also, EASYDNS.COM is the DNS host for them. You may want to contact them and see what they can do. You may have the potential to drag each of those people into any lawsuit, which would likely encourage them to turn over the owners of the site to get their asses out of the line of fire.

Good luck.

Thanks. I will contact Moniker.

It looks like the civil suit will be naming, GRC WorldWide, Proxy.org, PayPal, ThePlanet, Moniker, EASYDNS, et al.

My guess is that when these companies get named they will come up off of the info to prove that they did not facilitate fraud.

[sandman!]

what did proxy.org do ?

What i see them doing is listing proxy sites what ya suing them for ?

[Vick!]

Whats up with proxy.org?

[fr0gman]

Originally Posted by sandman!

what did proxy.org do ?

What i see them doing is listing proxy sites what ya suing them for ?

Originally Posted by Vick!

Whats up with proxy.org?

I spent about 2 hours on the phone Thursday with the manager of Google Adsense click fraud team and another 1/5 hours on Friday. His summary statement was: "An overwhelming majority of the click traffic coming from www.proxy.org is non-human."

You do the math on that one. If you had a site that you monetized with ads for people that host PPC ads and you could send "non-human" traffic it would inflate the value of your ads while eliminating you from direct action by the PPC providers.

I am not saying that www.proxy.org participated in click fraud, but all of the evidence certainly points to that.

Google has evaluated all of the Adsense publishers that have ads on www.proxy.org and they have told me that all of the accounts show the same patterns.

Before you say: The traffic is using proxies to hit the PPC ads. I covered that with the Adsense guy and he told me that they can detect proxy clicks and that the "non-human" evaluation comes from click patterns and not from IP/header/ref as one would think.

[sandman!]

Originally Posted by fr0gman

I spent about 2 hours on the phone Thursday with the manager of Google Adsense click fraud team and another 1/5 hours on Friday. His summary statement was: "An overwhelming majority of the click traffic coming from www.proxy.org is non-human."

You do the math on that one. If you had a site that you monetized with ads for people that host PPC ads and you could send "non-human" traffic it would inflate the value of your ads while eliminating you from direct action by the PPC providers.

I am not saying that www.proxy.org participated in click fraud, but all of the evidence certainly points to that.

Google has evaluated all of the Adsense publishers that have ads on www.proxy.org and they have told me that all of the accounts show the same patterns.

Before you say: The traffic is using proxies to hit the PPC ads. I covered that with the Adsense guy and he told me that they can detect proxy clicks and that the "non-human" evaluation comes from click patterns and not from IP/header/ref as one would think.

from what i understand someone is using a bot using thier proxy database of websites to hit your site and your going to sue them for it ?

If so thats pretty lame its like suing a freehost where someone uploaded some stolen content.

[Vick!]

that sucks. People using adsense to steal money out of advertiser's pockets need life.

Try contacting proxy.org's owner, i think he runs a forum for proxy site owners on the same domain.
He seems to be a friendly guy.

[fr0gman]

Originally Posted by sandman!

from what i understand someone is using a bot using thier proxy database of websites to hit your site and your going to sue them for it ?

If so thats pretty lame its like suing a freehost where someone uploaded some stolen content.

Ok, in your example let me say:

When you follow the money it always ends with the culprit. I firmly believe that this "someone" is proxy.org. Maybe I am wrong, but they have been less than forthcoming with requests for information that would prove that they had nothing to do with the fraud. If they have nothing to hide then why are they hiding?

Your "free host" example makes no sense. A free host *IS* responsible for content uploaded by users.

We can do an experiment to prove this. You upload some illegal porn to a free host and I will report it to the FBI. See where the investigation starts. I assure you that when your free hosts gets hit with legal action they will give you up so fast it will make your head swim.

I honestly expected some backlash from some people on here because it is the nature of GFY. I believe that I was defrauded by www.proxy.org and the analysis by Google's click fraud team supports that idea. We will let a court of law have the final say.

If the police, the FBI and a civil court all say that nothing was wrong then I will be the first to come here and say I was wrong but right now, today, the evidence that I have strongly suggests fraud.

[fr0gman]

Originally Posted by Vick!

that sucks. People using adsense to steal money out of advertiser's pockets need life.

Try contacting proxy.org's owner, i think he runs a forum for proxy site owners on the same domain.
He seems to be a friendly guy.

He has not only ignored my repeated request for information that would exonerate proxy.org but he has also deleted forum posts about this topic and blocked my IP address from his server.

I am sorry but these actions do not indicate "friendly" nor "innocent". IMHO!

I agree that it does suck.... especially when you look at his site and see that there are over 600 advertisers there that have the same "non-human" click patterns.

[sandman!]

Originally Posted by fr0gman

Ok, in your example let me say:

When you follow the money it always ends with the culprit. I firmly believe that this "someone" is proxy.org. Maybe I am wrong, but they have been less than forthcoming with requests for information that would prove that they had nothing to do with the fraud. If they have nothing to hide then why are they hiding?

Your "free host" example makes no sense. A free host *IS* responsible for content uploaded by users.

We can do an experiment to prove this. You upload some illegal porn to a free host and I will report it to the FBI. See where the investigation starts. I assure you that when your free hosts gets hit with legal action they will give you up so fast it will make your head swim.

I honestly expected some backlash from some people on here because it is the nature of GFY. I believe that I was defrauded by www.proxy.org and the analysis by Google's click fraud team supports that idea. We will let a court of law have the final say.

If the police, the FBI and a civil court all say that nothing was wrong then I will be the first to come here and say I was wrong but right now, today, the evidence that I have strongly suggests fraud.

im not an expert on what proxy.org does and if im wrong correct me but from what i see they list 100-1000 free web proxy services and let people type in a url and connect thru the proxy sites/servers that are listed they dont actually run any proxies.

That being the case i dont see why they would be hitting your site or why they would want to hit your site with any fake traffic i could see someone writing a script to go thru them and proxy sites to generate fake clicks on your site tho i have read the bbs before awile ago and some proxy site owners were bitching about people trying to abuse thier service to hitbot other sites this is probably what happened to you.

Unless you think the owner/owners of proxy.org have a personal problem with you.

[quantum-x]

Originally Posted by fr0gman

He has not only ignored my repeated request for information that would exonerate proxy.org but he has also deleted forum posts about this topic and blocked my IP address from his server.

I am sorry but these actions do not indicate "friendly" nor "innocent". IMHO!

I agree that it does suck.... especially when you look at his site and see that there are over 600 advertisers there that have the same "non-human" click patterns.

If he's banned your IP, just use a proxy to.. oh. Right.

[chupacabra]

Originally Posted by quantum-x

If he's banned your IP, just use a proxy to.. oh. Right.

oh that was bad..

[Jinx]

I'm a bit confused, does fr0gman believe proxy.org commited "click fraud" on the proxy.org site itself. Or just simply because it posts proxies and those proxies are or where used to "click fraud". If it's the later then ROTFLMAO if not, bummer man.

[V_RocKs]

You will get no where.

[starpimps]

i dont see what this will accomplish, the just list various free phproxy sites

[fr0gman]

Originally Posted by sandman!

im not an expert on what proxy.org does and if im wrong correct me but from what i see they list 100-1000 free web proxy services and let people type in a url and connect thru the proxy sites/servers that are listed they dont actually run any proxies.

That being the case i dont see why they would be hitting your site or why they would want to hit your site with any fake traffic i could see someone writing a script to go thru them and proxy sites to generate fake clicks on your site tho i have read the bbs before awile ago and some proxy site owners were bitching about people trying to abuse thier service to hitbot other sites this is probably what happened to you.

Unless you think the owner/owners of proxy.org have a personal problem with you.

Ok, I can give you my personal theory on this.

Let's say that you develop a script to do just what you say. You know that if you run this script on your own PPC account that it will only be amatter of time before your get canned. But if you put up a site that sells ads then you use your "clicking script" to send traffic to the sites of the people that advertise with you it artificially inflates the value of your service.

The FACTS in this deal are that Google's evaluation of the data suggests that proxy.org is involved in click fraud. I and I think most courts will see their opinion as that of authority.

I guess we will just see how this whole deal shakes out. I can't see why a 3rd party with nothing to gain would be sending invalid traffic to over 600 sites.

[quantum-x]

It's a distinct possibility that the people are running a site collecting free proxies for their own use in click fraud. It's a perfect cover - and so far most of GFY didn't think of it...

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by sandman!

from what i understand someone is using a bot using thier proxy database of websites to hit your site and your going to sue them for it ?

If so thats pretty lame its like suing a freehost where someone uploaded some stolen content.

It always comes back to the same thing: Companies that facilitate fraud by allowing people to hide their identity are de facto participants in the fraudlent activity. Quite simply, nobody would bot anyone's pages through normal means.

Anonymous surfing tools (specifically proxy service providers) need to be held liable for the end results of their service.

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by starpimps

i dont see what this will accomplish, the just list various free phproxy sites

Read more closely - they CHARGE to list these proxy sites, and the proxy sites in turn use the traffic to their own ends. Perhaps they allow people to actually surf to places - but add in a banner or two. Perhaps they pop a window in the background with an ad. Maybe they install malware.

They have found ways to profit from paying for space to push their "free" proxy service, so you can imagine there is a whole pile of nasty shit going on there.

[sandman!]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

It always comes back to the same thing: Companies that facilitate fraud by allowing people to hide their identity are de facto participants in the fraudlent activity. Quite simply, nobody would bot anyone's pages through normal means.

Anonymous surfing tools (specifically proxy service providers) need to be held liable for the end results of their service.

suing a web proxy provider i think will work as well as sueing a isp for something one of their users did.

Im not an attorney but i dont see a lawsuite like this going far.

[sandman!]

Originally Posted by fr0gman

Ok, I can give you my personal theory on this.

Let's say that you develop a script to do just what you say. You know that if you run this script on your own PPC account that it will only be amatter of time before your get canned. But if you put up a site that sells ads then you use your "clicking script" to send traffic to the sites of the people that advertise with you it artificially inflates the value of your service.

The FACTS in this deal are that Google's evaluation of the data suggests that proxy.org is involved in click fraud. I and I think most courts will see their opinion as that of authority.

I guess we will just see how this whole deal shakes out. I can't see why a 3rd party with nothing to gain would be sending invalid traffic to over 600 sites.

Let me get this right then proxy.org is running ad's that are being clicked using a bot ? Or proxy.org is running a site and sending fake traffic thru it ?

If all your talking about is someone abusing proxy.org's system to produce click fraud you are going to probably have a hard time in court service providers are usually not held liable for what users do.

[digifan]

Most of them don't even reply you... I realized last year I got fuskered and we filed complains and whatnot against the host for using the BW and the exclusive content, the site owner called them a few times and they just loved at us.

[fr0gman]

Originally Posted by sandman!

Let me get this right then proxy.org is running ad's that are being clicked using a bot ? Or proxy.org is running a site and sending fake traffic thru it ?

If all your talking about is someone abusing proxy.org's system to produce click fraud you are going to probably have a hard time in court service providers are usually not held liable for what users do.

You are missing the point here. It is not natural traffic. Google has some very complex algorithms that filter out proxy clicks. At the end of the day EVERY advertiser has "non-human" clicks that originated from proxy.org.

I am convinced that this will result in a civil action in my favor. I cannot speak to what will happen from Google's side of the fence, but I can imagine that they will aggressively pursue action since they have been loosing thousands a day to this scheme. I also have no idea what the criminal investigation will turn, but I know that local LE and the FBI are involved.

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by sandman!

suing a web proxy provider i think will work as well as sueing a isp for something one of their users did.

Im not an attorney but i dont see a lawsuite like this going far.

Sandman, ISPs have been obligated to disclose who their clients are. An ISP would not allow random unchecked people to use their facilities. proxy.org exists to provide people a service - they call it "surfing anonymously", but the reality it is a way to do things that are illegal and not get caught.

Can you think of any good use for high volume proxies (that doesn't involve spam or stealing software?)

[sandman!]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Sandman, ISPs have been obligated to disclose who their clients are. An ISP would not allow random unchecked people to use their facilities. proxy.org exists to provide people a service - they call it "surfing anonymously", but the reality it is a way to do things that are illegal and not get caught.

Can you think of any good use for high volume proxies (that doesn't involve spam or stealing software?)

Actually there are a quite a few proxies that dont keep logs so no one can force them to disclose user data there are 100+ reasons to use a proxy besides spam.

I dont think you can mail thru web based proxies.

[sandman!]

Originally Posted by fr0gman

You are missing the point here. It is not natural traffic. Google has some very complex algorithms that filter out proxy clicks. At the end of the day EVERY advertiser has "non-human" clicks that originated from proxy.org.

I am convinced that this will result in a civil action in my favor. I cannot speak to what will happen from Google's side of the fence, but I can imagine that they will aggressively pursue action since they have been loosing thousands a day to this scheme. I also have no idea what the criminal investigation will turn, but I know that local LE and the FBI are involved.

I understand the point totally someone is running a bot thru the free proxy.org service and you think suing them will make you $$$ or prove a point unless the owners of proxy.org are the ones doing it and you can prove it i dont think you will get a penny.

I wish you luck tho

[Wizzo]

Originally Posted by fr0gman

Ok, in your example let me say:

We can do an experiment to prove this. You upload some illegal porn to a free host and I will report it to the FBI. See where the investigation starts. I assure you that when your free hosts gets hit with legal action they will give you up so fast it will make your head swim.

Not true, We ran Porncity for years, the 1st and largest adult freehost and the FBI never took legal action against us when someone would upload CP, but would request our help which we were glad to give when it came to that... But the legality of it, we weren't responsible for that content.

[fr0gman]

Originally Posted by sandman!

I understand the point totally someone is running a bot thru the free proxy.org service and you think suing them will make you $$$ or prove a point unless the owners of proxy.org are the ones doing it and you can prove it i dont think you will get a penny.

I wish you luck tho

It amazes me at the number of people that automatically assume that if someone files a law suit that they are looking to make money. yes, I would love to offset my losses, but the greater issue is to stop an ongoing fraud.

I will sue them. That is a fact and I will cooperate with law enforcement. If they have done nothing wrong then that will be determined by the courts.

I am not an expert in these matters, but when Google tells me that there is fraud going on I am compelled to believe them. whether you think that proxy.org (or any proxy service) is good, bad or ugly is not really important. Many people have been defrauded in this scenario, in my opinion and if proxy.org has nothing to hide they are doing a great job of hiding it.

[fr0gman]

Originally Posted by Wizzo

Not true, We ran Porncity for years, the 1st and largest adult freehost and the FBI never took legal action against us when someone would upload CP, but would request our help which we were glad to give when it came to that... But the legality of it, we weren't responsible for that content.

Because you cooperated with LE. I bet if you started blocking IP's and refusing to return calls and email that the outcome would have been quite different.

[zabijaq]

Originally Posted by sandman!

from what i understand someone is using a bot using thier proxy database of websites to hit your site and your going to sue them for it ?

If so thats pretty lame its like suing a freehost where someone uploaded some stolen content.

It's like blaming ISP that You got trojan cause You're using their connection ;)