Too Much FREE Porn - When is it enough?

[Extreme John]

Over the last few months, and more recently than ever. I have been listening to webmasters complain about the money they are making from their Tgp's & free sites. (not that im a wizard by any far strecth). Just looking for some input on my thoughts about this:

It seems like only 2 years ago, a "Series Gallery" was rare, as was a "Gallery with 15-20 pics", as was "1 Minute minimum Movie Clips".

Two years ago no one complained about signups, ect.

My thought/question is 2 parts:

1) Bottom line is there simply just way too much free porn out there today, because of our own increase in standards?

2) (Aimed at TGP webmasters), if you knew that having maybe a 10 Pic maximum (less hardcore/more tease), or a 4 movie Maximum would earn you more in the way of signups, would you do it if the other Tgp's began to adobt the same type of philosophy?

I trully do believe that the amount of porn a surfer can get for free today, clearly makes it less exciting to buy memberships (thats no shock), some of the largest webmaster programs on the web today shoot content on a Sunday, release it to their webmaster program, than add it to their paysites, and in a massive abundance....

Now thinking back for a moment, when you started to see 20 Series picture minimums, or 15, whatever, every TGP followed and adopted that *New Rule.

Realisticly, to turn back may never be an option, but if it made you more money would you do it, and most importantly if everyone began to do it on their sites would you soon follow? As we all know the massive Tgp's that exist today don't need to change, they have pre-paid ads that support their business, but wouldnt it be more lucrative if there were less free pics, less hardcore pics/movies, which would intice people to buy from the pre-paid spots, making your advertising $ more well spent?

Bottom line is it time to turn the clock back? And if you think it is and your a TGP webmaster, do you have the balls to do it?

I know it's a novel - Shoot me!



Xtc - http://www.dirtydaughter.com/index2.htm (guilty)

[DjSap]

this type of thread is posted like once a week, if you can't make it in this biz then get out.

if all tgps would have 10 pic minimum one guy is gonna change it to 15 pic minimum and get more surfers...

[greentea]

1) Bottom line is there simply just way too much free porn out there today, because of our own increase in standards?

No because every one and there friggin grandma think they can make easy money with online porn, sadly 90% of them are mistaken and fail miserably.

[Rocky]

you hit it right on the nose

a few years ago the idea was to make surfers go through hoops of fire to find the free content

and of course this made them much happier to sign up with a paid sponsor so they no longer had to deal with all the redirects, pop-ups, blind links and ultimately the crappy 10 thumbs supplied by the webmaster

today, webmasters treat surfers with kids gloves and give them what they want - to create a false sense of trust - hoping that in turn this will get them signups

this methodology will only work with sites with lots of traffic and i personally don't think it's the trust issue that eventually gets them the signups but rather a numbers game

[Extreme John]

DJ - Hardly saying I cant make it in this business.

Simply bringing up a topic that people have been jamming down my throat for the last 2 weeks.

As for the topic being posted once a week, sadly im not here often enough to know about, never been the Chatty Kathy.


Xtc

[Lane]

find an easy way to make more money without giving away this much free porn, the others will follow... believe me, webmasters love money..

[RMG]

The whole "less free porn" concept is doomed to failure before it even starts. If every site on the net only offered 5-10 pic teaser galleries, there will always be someone to give the paysite away for free just for the traffic he would recieve by this (not that he'll be able to sell anything with it). *shrug*

I'm waiting for the revolution. Until then, work hard and

[Rocky]

Originally posted by Lane
find an easy way to make more money without giving away this much free porn, the others will follow... believe me, webmasters love money..

the easy way was the method used 3 or 4 years ago

you remember lane

wondering if steve (hioctane) will respond, he always has provocative things to say about this topic

[RMG]

Originally posted by Lane
find an easy way to make more money without giving away this much free porn, the others will follow... believe me, webmasters love money..

Prime example: TGP2
It's still alive and kicking but most people are afraid of change. As a result, the biggest tgp2 i've seen only peaks around 100k a day and the majority of that traffic is sent to trades etc.

Let one TGP2 have the ability to send 10-20k to a new gallery listing and you will see the domino effect.

[Rocky]

Originally posted by RMG
The whole "less free porn" concept is doomed to failure before it even starts.

it's not so much the "less free porn" but how long it takes the surfers to get to it that is the concept

[Trenton]

I saw we start somthing new.

Maybee only have like 5 clickable thumbs. We could call it TGP2 or somthing like that.

[Trenton]

Originally posted by Xtc-Xtc


1) Bottom line is there simply just way too much free porn out there today, because of our own increase in standards?

Bottom line is there simply are just too many webmasters.

[Rocky]

hell, give the fuckers galleries with 150 thumbs if you want

just make sure they have to go through a few FPA's, blind links and consoles to get to them

it's a bit disturbing that non-adult companies have gone dirty and people in the adult biz have cleaned things up

considering that now the majority of surfers expect ads, consoles and other forms of marketing

[RMG]

Originally posted by Rocky
hell, give the fuckers galleries with 150 thumbs if you want

just make sure they have to go through a few FPA's, blind links and consoles to get to them

it's a bit disturbing that non-adult companies have gone dirty and people in the adult biz have cleaned things up

considering that now the majority of surfers expect ads, consoles and other forms of marketing

Just shows how far behind mainstream is to adult.

[Rocky]

Originally posted by RMG



Just shows how far behind mainstream is to adult.

i beg to differ

it's the providers of free content in the adult industry that have forgotten that this is a business

mainstream sites are just as clever in design work, targetting traffic and working the masses

[quiet]

too much free porn!!

[RMG]

Originally posted by Rocky


i beg to differ

it's the providers of free content in the adult industry that have forgotten that this is a business

mainstream sites are just as clever in design work, targetting traffic and working the masses

I can buy 1200+ images for 80.00usd and slap all of it on a freehost if I want....whats the difference?

[Rocky]

Originally posted by RMG


I can buy 1200+ images for 80.00usd and slap all of it on a freehost if I want....whats the difference?

well if you can't market those pages on the freehost then you don't make money

if you can't compete with the marketing scheme devised by the freehost used on either their headers, footers or 404 traffic then you don't make money

if you don't get listed on a large link site or TGP with those galleries then you don't make money

if you don't know how to drive SE traffic to those galleries then you don't make money

if large link sites or TGP's create rules that benefit themselves and use you solely for your free content and list your galleries, then you don't make money

so you see it is not the amount of content that is to be questioned, but the freedom to be able to drive surfers to that content in the manner of your own choosing

[RMG]

Originally posted by Rocky


well if you can't market those pages on the freehost then you don't make money

if you can't compete with the marketing scheme devised by the freehost used on either their headers, footers or 404 traffic then you don't make money

if you don't get listed on a large link site or TGP with those galleries then you don't make money

if you don't know how to drive SE traffic to those galleries then you don't make money

if large link sites or TGP's create rules that benefit themselves and use you solely for your free content and list your galleries, then you don't make money

so you see it is not the amount of content that is to be questioned, but the freedom to be able to drive surfers to that content in the manner of your own choosing

I see what you're saying, but when I said "that just shows how far behind mainstream is to adult." , I was thinking along the lines that some of the most profitable adult sites on the net today have removed popups and other "shady" tactics to cater to the needs of the user a bit more in the sense that more surfers today have web savvy and know their way around.

What does this mean? Mainstream sites will feel the effects of these tactics lessen at a much faster rate than the adult industry did....because we are ahead of the game.

[Pornwolf]

This will not get any better without government regulation prohibiting freely accessable porn. There's another biz in the mature stages of this same situation... the radio biz.

When the radio biz first started, musicians/labels made 2 minute songs to give them to play on the radio which promotes their album. They give these songs to radio for little to no money. Since radio makes money by advertising instead of sharing record sales (sound familiar?) it had to get more competitive so they could charge more for ads. The radio stations started asking for longer songs that had familiar pop elements that were easy for the masses to get to like quickly. These stations were making unhealthy demands to the musicians whose music they need to survive. No music, no radio station. Does that sound familiar?

This led to tons of pop drivel being made and played for free over and over again. It hurt and helped record sales at the same time. People bought albums but some artists don't get as lucky since the public hears all the good songs from their album over and over all day so they don't buy those albums, they just turn on the radio (sounds like popular content on TGP's huh?)

All the while the big fat radio corporations continue to make tons of money off of ads. The only musicians that win in this situation are the super talented ones (I mean the best new pop formulas).

Radio programmers would love to play the songs that mean something but no one is going to change this arrangement at all because if they start doing it the competition would just play the proven winners - britney/n-sync/Nelly all day long and kill them in ratings. So no one will change this situation.

As this situation progresses in net porn, only the cream will rise to the top. The newest pop-idea or the most different ones will be what wins. Bang Bus was an obvious example. We can't stop this train so all you can do is make your stuff stand out by spending even more money than before or come up with the killer idea ala Bang Bus.

[RMG]

Originally posted by Pornwolf
This will not get any better without government regulation prohibiting freely accessable porn. There's another biz in the mature stages of this same situation... the radio biz.

When the radio biz first started, musicians/labels made 2 minute songs to give them to play on the radio which promotes their album. They give these songs to radio for little to no money. Since radio makes money by advertising instead of sharing record sales (sound familiar?) it had to get more competitive so they could charge more for ads. The radio stations started asking for longer songs that had familiar pop elements that were easy for the masses to get to like quickly. These stations were making unhealthy demands to the musicians whose music they need to survive. No music, no radio station. Does that sound familiar?

This led to tons of pop drivel being made and played for free over and over again. It hurt and helped record sales at the same time. People bought albums but some artists don't get as lucky since the public hears all the good songs from their album over and over all day so they don't buy those albums, they just turn on the radio (sounds like popular content on TGP's huh?)

All the while the big fat radio corporations continue to make tons of money off of ads. The only musicians that win in this situation are the super talented ones (I mean the best new pop formulas).

Radio programmers would love to play the songs that mean something but no one is going to change this arrangement at all because if they start doing it the competition would just play the proven winners - britney/n-sync/Nelly all day long and kill them in ratings. So no one will change this situation.

As this situation progresses in net porn, only the cream will rise to the top. The newest pop-idea or the most different ones will be what wins. Bang Bus was an obvious example. We can't stop this train so all you can do is make your stuff stand out by spending even more money than before or come up with the killer idea ala Bang Bus.

lol....INDEED

[Killerelf]

I personally hope that 90% of the new webmasters fail. And the 10% of the new ones that don't sign up under my refferal codes.

Its not too much porn. Its to many webmasters.

[Rocky]

Originally posted by RMG


I was thinking along the lines that some of the most profitable adult sites on the net today have removed popups and other "shady" tactics to cater to the needs of the user a bit more in the sense that more surfers today have web savvy and know their way around.

new surfers arrive in vast numbers on a daily basis and if the supposed concept of a surfer being "web savvy" then why does the constant bombardment of advertising still work today (television, radio, junk mail, and other "shady" tactics)

i mean if every television savvy person in the world turned off their tv or didn't buy the stuff advertised between programs then there wouldn't be any advertisements

Originally posted by Pornwolf
As this situation progresses in net porn, only the cream will rise to the top. The newest pop-idea or the most different ones will be what wins.

it's not necessarily the cream rising to the top, perhaps it's a minority regulating people that happen to work in an industry that operates within the confines of an unregulated medium

[greentea]

For every 10 failed newbies leaving this industry, there are ten times more coming in as replacements.

90% have no clue what there doing, which leads to even MORE free porn

[Rocky]

Originally posted by greentea
For every 10 failed newbies leaving this industry, there are ten times more coming in as replacements.

sounds like the night of the living dead

[Pornwolf]

Originally posted by Rocky


it's not necessarily the cream rising to the top, perhaps it's a minority regulating people that happen to work in an industry that operates within the confines of an unregulated medium

No matter who the minority is they are still the judges of the industry and that's not going to change. So in effect they are the representation of the majority. It's no different than radio & television programmers or politicians even! They are just a comparitively small number of people that try to poll and offer the listeners/viewers/citizens what they say they want to see.

If they don't offer what the masses want then they are OUT! Don't forget that. That's why the rules on TGP's are so hard.

You always have another option, you can do what people with absolutely terrible records do to get on the air... grease the palms! Or in the porn case, Call Cybercat Inc! Or pay Richards Realm, Snakes World or any of the other TGP's directly.
.
.
.
I guess that goes back to where I say "pay more money than before."

[OzKaNoz]

RMG
Let one TGP2 have the ability to send 10-20k to a new gallery listing and you will see the domino effect.

This is going to happen soon! And it will be the wake up call that is needed to open the eyes of some webmasters.

You can't blame them for not wanting to tamper with what works for them.

I think some of the big tgp's should test Tgp2 on the side by building a Tgp2 site and feeding it the large amounts of traffic they get.

I think they would find the results very interesting.
Tgp by x amount of traffic = conversions
And
Tgp2 by x amount of traffic = conversions

x amount of traffic being the same for Tgp and Tgp2.

I mean really what do you have to lose. You wouldn't be messing with your Tgp site. So it should see no harm. You just build the Tgp2 site on the side.

One of you big guy or gals take me up on this and test it.

Oz

[Theo]

hello XTC, how are you doing?

For the ones that don't know XTC, he is owner of some very nice niche paysites. His word has a reasoning and if you fail to see now where this leads...be prepared for funny surprises in the future. Some you of don't give a shit about tgp, but in fact they affect you too, even if your traffic does not come from tgps. The quality of the galleries posted in several tgps at the moment is BETTER than the galleries you can find on an average paysite. Every single set that a content provider releases within a period of week it will be posted across 500 tgps while at the same time most of the paysites won't have done an update. As John said, 2 years ago I remember the galleries posted at sublime had quality 0, the pics were so fucking small that looked like thumbs. I haven't followed the tgp scene all the time, but if you ask me which tgps set that high the stantards I'll tell you:

call-kelly
absolute series
worldsex
elephantlist
and some others.

In case you get decent listings from them and you make some few hundreds/day maybe you'll consider me fool for discussing these while you feel happy i'm telling you this:

You fucking idiot, this is an industry of billion dollars and you still after all these years are satisfied with few hundreds dollars/day while you have to suck the cock of each tgp webmaster? Go become a whore, you'll do the same thing and you'll make more money.

[posh rat in hell]

Too much free porn is a problem, but unless everyone reduces their free content, there isnt anything you can do about it. If you lower it, it just makes you less competitive.

[sarcasticbastard]

tgp2 is dead

Let one TGP2 have the ability to send 10-20k to a new gallery listing and you will see the domino effect.

This is going to happen soon! And it will be the wake up call that is needed to open the eyes of some webmasters

you have been saying this same crap for a year now and so far you results have been zilch.

and where is your fearless leader? oh that's right he bolted on you guys.
that shoulda been a clue.
the only thing you have to show any results with is stats from 4 free porn sponsors.
now let's see, tgp2 means or stands for less free porn and wants to take a stand against the amount of free porn on the net but what do we push from our sites? free porn sponsors?
fucking brilliant.

you tgp2ers have proved nothing
except sheeep shall be sheep and lemmings shall be lemmings
and btw the cliff is that way..........>

if you really really wanted to stand for less free porn you fools would have done tgp3 with no big pics. then give em all the thumbs you want.
that's all i put on avs tours and it works extremely well.
I run tgp3's that make money selling real porn memberships
and not these bullshit 4 free programs

then again we are doing something about,
for every webmaster i get to take tgp galleries and build avs sites the more they do it the more they see that they make more money with a hella lot less overhead, the less tgping they do.

where as you tgp2 clowns are still doing what?
i will tell you what
gurgling your last few breaths as you die. you were doomed from the start.
ltrz
god of tgp3

[EscortBiz]

one day it will be gone just like the free internet days watch and see

[Extreme John]

For a topic that seems to be posted weekly, it seems to be a heated one.

I have to say that if your hard headed hate change, and think that nothing will ever change. Your wrong, this is a business world, and things change in business every minute. It seems that Rocky has a great intelligence, as well as a great way of explaining the wheel turning inside that head.

I agree I would love it if 90% of new webmasters fail, most do... Why do you think that is?? Maybe they are groomed by some of the sites they use to visit, did their homework on some of the Tgp's out there today that have been around a while, or perhaps not. Sadly a newbie can't compete even with the strictess of rules..

Think about that statement, why can't them compete... Why do they have such a hard time surviving?? Maybe because they are mirroring what they see.. Sadly what they see is only as large as it is (free tgp's) because TGP webmasters have been bending over (and making the gallery designers bend over as well), and take it right in the crack from the free loading palm fucker that does nothing but run around to free sites everyday so he can wack it while his credit card sits nice and tightly into his wallet on the kitchen counter.

You see the existing sites set the standard for all the new sites (as far as tgp's, Im hardly talking anything about sponsors at this point). Now with that being the case, no matter how many webmasters there are, it's irrelevant, the huge tgp's will always be huge, simple as that. Now the fact is people are affraid to change, why change what feels good now, it feels good so fuck it. Ultimatley if the tgp's and gallery designers decided to change you would see a new kind of "newbie" one that creates the same kind of free sites that are out there now, and with the same rules. If in fact those rules were a bit easier and aimed more towards making money than they are to making the surfer think about getting that wallet, you would see more revenue generated.

I think the mis-conception about my initial post is that Im a big fan of TGP2's, or I want console laiden porn pages, or that I want to give away no free porn. That couldnt be more wrong, my initiall thought is very basic. (Im a basic kinda guy), always have been in my personal life as well as in business.

I don't like TGP2 sites, I simply never have and never will and wont get into explaining why. However thumbs up to the for giving some new shit a shot. Have some balls and consider change, business is an evering changing world.

POerhaps instead of rules looking like this:
1) 20 Series Pics Minimum
2) 8 Movie clip minimum (15 second each)/or 1 Movie 1 Minute minimum
3) No larger pictures on HTML pages

You tweaked those basic rules to look like this:
1) 10 Picture Maximum Series Only
2) 4 Movies maximum (10 seconds each max)/1 Movie no longer than 35 Seconds
3) Larger pictures may be on html pages (maybe maybe not, but wouldnt hurt as long as your script can monitor those pages)
4) Limited penetrations in photos

Is that, that much of a massive change? Not really, will it kill a Tgp's bookmarkers? Not at all. Will gallery makers hate the idea, fuck no. And maybe, just maybe, if done somwhat accross the board it might raise the amount of MONEY generated by everyone. 1/2 the content and limiting what kind of content gets listed could very well cause fat ass that has been rubbing his nub onto his keyboard to get the fuck up and yank his CC out of his wallet.

Maybe I've had too many hits of crack today, last week and the day before. The bottom line is, if you cant see whats going on around you, your fucking eyes are'nt open, you don't belong in the biz, or we can look forward to your departure over the next few years.

Thats my opinion and im sticking to it, and by the looks of things other have a very similar opinion, perhaps just a different way of thinking of how they would approach it.



Xtc

[Theo]

Excelent points, unfortunately I believe most people fail to see what's going on. It's a road with no return.

[Pornwolf]

Sounds like a good plan... now try making someone stick to it.

[gotys]

Xtc-Xtc,

your views and opinions are very nice to be dreamed of. The only problem is that existing established TGPs took lots of efford and time to get where they are today. For most of the TGP masters, the income is the only income they have (yes, fucking small income from TGP, but still, some income).

Now imagine, if 99% of these would change to satisfy your idea. What will happen? The surfer will go that 1% that didn't change. The cheap fucker Joe who doesn't toss his CC will find his way of getting free shit, there is free shit online, and always will be. You will never make EVERY TGP in the world to agree to this, because...well,...it's just people, and people fuck each other over on regular basis to make cash.

That is why TGPs are bending over like you said, because there is so much competition and they want survive.

There are ways of making money with a TGP. Actually, profits from TGPs are mostly generated by other webmasters, not the jerking Joes. It's strange how it works. I still don't understand it quiete well.

Anyhow, just me

[Captain P]

WOW -

There is a lot to comment on here and I forgot half of it in the time it took to type this... partially cuz I am shocked to see xTc in here.


Seriously tho, I agree 100% with x and with Martin.
I also will say that I could care less about newbies in this biz. They will always be there and so will the big tgp's. The newbies may make the 50 pic gallery with one banner and the hun will always list it... BUT.. those are usually stolen playboy pics with a banner to am pages. That kind of an approach will never hurt my business.

TGP2 was a good idea but it's also newbie saturated and therefore destined to bomb. It was over before it started.

Anyone who knows me knows that I run several tgp's and list ONLY my own galleries. I decide who these sites trade with. I decide how and who I promote. I basically have my own mini internet. Take the morons out of the equation.




this post is already too long so I'll shut up...... but I have so much more to say...

[quiet]

Originally posted by Pornwolf
now try making someone stick to it.

exactly. unless an opec-style cartel is formed lol.

[Mr Friendly]

I like all of you equally, TGPers, TGP2er's and you mini internet people!

I think too much pink is being shown. Not too much porn, just the wrong porn.

I have always had the biggest success with softcore pics. Pink is for paysites.

[Extreme John]

I would be an idiot to think you can "MAKE SOMEONE STICK TO IT", that's not going to happen, ever.

Although I think it may be a bit mis-fired to think that every surfer will just go to the 1% that lists bigger galleries. If that was the case wouldnt every surfer just goto the Hun because they know he doesnt fuck his surfers around??

I guess not because if I look at Sextracker there's more than just 1 site listed there with some traffic.

Hey Cap, yeah im feeling posty, hahah.. I also have that little tiny network kicking myself, and will soon be listing nothing but my own galleries on all of my sites, only about 20% from doing that now

Ill make the change, I have no fear, and when the day is over, Ill still have plenty of traffic, not because my site is better, and most certainly not because I changed the galleries I list, simply because I am still offering free porn, just not 50 million pics per page.


Xtc - Still Different - Still Traffic Having - Still With Steal Balls

[Theo]

well I have to admit that gotys run one of the largest tgps with the simplest rules to get listed and even if your gallery is free hosted with few pics it doesn't matter. This proves that surfers do not seek always for the insane quality. Best-of-all.net lists galleries that are perfectly great, but it never became big tgp. This means it involves more skills that posting the best galleries.
Gotys also said that big tgp webmaster has as primary source of income other webmasters which is very true. That's the current model and will switch too. You'll see that big tgps in the future will have ONLY paid listings and free sponsor galleries...maybe the rest 20% will be from free submissions.

[sweetcuties]

Good thread John, I always learn something from you...

I vote for cleaning up most of the harcore images on tgps and using softcore teaser images. Someone who doesn't have paysites will never understand. Why give the surfer j/o material before he enters... teaser all the way! For those of you who know me, I'm a strong beliver in teaser stuff http://www.michelleteen.com/mtico.html

[Pornwolf]

Originally posted by quiet


exactly. unless an opec-style cartel is formed lol.

Ha ha ha ha ha ... ha ha .... ha ... Hmmmmm?




Ya never know, anything is possibe if the right people got together.

[Pornwolf]

Originally posted by sweetcuties
Good thread John, I always learn something from you...

I vote for cleaning up most of the harcore images on tgps and using softcore teaser images. Someone who doesn't have paysites will never understand. Why give the surfer j/o material before he enters... teaser all the way! For those of you who know me, I'm a strong beliver in teaser stuff http://www.michelleteen.com/mtico.html

I totally agree with that. If only all the sponsors offered the softcore shots in the sets they offer for free content. That would be one hell of a start.

[quiet]

Originally posted by Pornwolf


Ha ha ha ha ha ... ha ha .... ha ... Hmmmmm?




Ya never know, anything is possibe if the right people got together.

hehe

[sweetcuties]

Originally posted by Soul_Rebel
well I have to admit that gotys run one of the largest tgps with the simplest rules to get listed and even if your gallery is free hosted with few pics it doesn't matter. This proves that surfers do not seek always for the insane quality. Best-of-all.net lists galleries that are perfectly great, but it never became big tgp. This means it involves more skills that posting the best galleries.
Gotys also said that big tgp webmaster has as primary source of income other webmasters which is very true. That's the current model and will switch too. You'll see that big tgps in the future will have ONLY paid listings and free sponsor galleries...maybe the rest 20% will be from free submissions.

I couldn't agree more, the tgp world is coming to all paid listings. I bought a few listings from cybercat and I've been happy. I NEED A SURE THING... I don't have time to guess if I'm gonna be listed or not I was telling John this last night on icq, the biggest guys will survive and the smaller webmaster will slowly die out and/or not be that successful. For me, this biz isn't a hobby, it's my full time job. I WILL SURVIVE!

[sweetcuties]

Originally posted by Pornwolf


I totally agree with that. If only all the sponsors offered the softcore shots in the sets they offer for free content. That would be one hell of a start.

Shit dude, I got that... anyone who promotes me knows I only release teaser type stuff. I don't release any h/c images for my site to be promoted... therefore, it converts. Check out pigporn.com, he's one of my biggest affiliates... you'll see my girls all over his site

[jimmyf]

Nice...some good info... 100% of it will go RAT over the heads of all TGP owners and people thinking about starting one. You see people start a TGP, with a bunch of screwed up rules (that they copied from other TGP's) and then they wonder why no traffic... or no one submits to them...why should anyone submit to
them...they will just submit to the ones they have been submitting to, with there fucked up rules. Now I'm
trying to make a statement but really don't know how to explain it.

I liked your example of pictures on htm's... but sure as shit as one big TGP allows it.... just watch the mass's.. I will give you odds that Joe Blow will allow one text on them ...... and Joe Henry will allow one (1) banner at the top... and Jimmy Henry will allow banner only at the top... and Dip Shit Henry will allow a banner top and bottom.... Guess I'll submit to Dip Shit Henry. Wonder if he is going to allow a line of text over and below banner... if so I bet he won't allow it to be a link. Better still I think I'll just keep on keeping on and not get back into doing gallery's... All those screwed up rules... I'm sure there will be a steady stream of newbies...