Barefootsies

Why oh why does this continue to be a problem no matter where you go for a quote. No matter, big, or small the job. You are willing to pay top dollar for it. Half down. Whatever to get a good designers and yet STILL...

You cannot get them to keep their commitments?

-That is on delivery of the final product.
-Call backs when they say.
-Meeting timeline commitments to stay on schedule.

Why is it you are paying good money, and some how I have to change my schedule to ride them like Zorro to get shit done? I cannot count the number of times I have been told something, whether site, graphic, etc will be done by the end of the day, week, month, and been still waiting. Or I have to track them down.

I think in the future I am going to get my lawyer to draft up a contract for me in all these bigger mainstream projects that set benchmarks that you WILL MEET at the time set, or your fees paid from the original quote will start going down per missed commitment by say... 10% each time.

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Barefootsies

and...

if you blow anything on the initial work up before stating the project, no more than 25% will be put down on any commitment. That's right. No half. No full.

You prove yourself out of the gate, and then you can write your own ticket. If you can't keep call backs, work ups, time tables accurately forcing me to baby sit you. Then it's 10% off the total bid via contract each time you miss a commitment, or benchmarks on a timetable.

That's fair enough. I'll put my money where my mouth is, and I should expect the same.

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mailman

Just to spam never had an issues with AJ always on time or early!

www.templateempire.com

Barefootsies

I always appreciate a good recommendation. It's the only way to pick them anymore and you need multiple.. Unfortunately that's not always fool proof.

Sometimes I think it's 99% of the designers are one of the following.

1. Either take on more than they can handle in workload, and promising unrealistic due dates which they cannot meet, which causes grief.

2. Are lazy and just happy to take the loot before going to the handy excuse hand book of countless things we've all heard.

I'm not expecting them to make a kick ass website on $50. I'll pay for what it's worth. But fucking A... give me timetables you can fucking meet, and do the work you say you can.

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Deej

The only time i have ever held up a client was when I came down with pneumonia and I sorted it out with my now steady client.

I didnt bullshit them and told them it would take a week or more to start a load of galleries... Got them in when i said...

ill never bullshit a client. I like to give them an over shot estimate anyway...both to gie me possible home dilema time and early work makes happy clients



edit* oh dont forget http://www.lumpyimages.com

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Barefootsies

Exactly.

When I have a lot of coals on the fire, I am looking for things to be done in a time window. If you think it will take a week, two, a month before you can get to it, and do it right then just say it. Maybe even give it some leeway. Like if it will take a week, say 10 days to allow for fuck ups. Deliver early, and clients are happy as a clam.

Not promise over the weekend, then it comes Monday. No responses of any kind. No e-mail. Nada. By the same token, I do not want a new excuse every week. I want my shit done when you say.

Also, do not do things I did not ask for. So when I see the completed work there is shit in there I did not specify, and further delays because you took some 'creative liberties'. Further delaying things.

When I am waiting on a design, I am not happy it will take a week, two, month, whatever. I am anxious to get started. However, I am more than happy to wait if it will be done right.

But the worst is when you are told you will get a call back, quote, example, whatever the commitment by whenever and then you either do not hear from them at all phone, fax, e-mail, ICQ. Or you have to track them down to get the lame excuse.

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LilBro

next time you need design work, contact me for a quote. Many clients will stand behind our work...and we have binding contract

www.AdultDesign.com

Barefootsies

Thanks for the plug. I'll definitely have a peek.

I am always looking for good designers. Eventually I'll find some to bring in house down the line, and end this madness. But in the meantime, I have to shop for them repeatedly because I feel like I have to babysit.

Give realistic commitments. Come with references. Do what you say, and we're golden for repeat business.

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Deej

I think ill look into a contract so I can be a big dog too... work load is picking up so I should do it for my own sake if nothing else...

I poste din another thread about not being ripped off yet... This will help avoid a first instance

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Barefootsies

I would definitely recommend looking into it.

As I mentioned, I am looking to have my lawyer draft one as well that locks designers into time line commitments, and a penality for missing them. This should get me the cream of the crop over time as good companies, and designers are not afraid to stand behind their work, and commitments.

Big or small, a lot of growing companies do not have time to fuck around chasing down their designs, or babysitting people to get work done that's been paid for, either half or full.

This shit's getting ridiculous, and it's time for a change on some of it. On both ends.

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Deej

dont forget the bonus for early work

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Barefootsies

Yep. I've talked to him about that as well.

I have no problem paying for good work, and service, and a bonus is always a nice little thank you for a job well done (and repeat business). Especially on those a bit more difficult.

We do the same with our models when they do a good job for us. We'll throw in bonus's on pay, or coupons, and certificates, etc. It's a nice way to show appreciation, and keep them doing well. It's worked out nice over the past 3 or so years.

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Deej

Nice, you know how to treat the people that make you money

hit me up sometime for no bullshit quotes

im out for now, bike ride with the lil woman to the local sammich shop.... nice fuckin day here

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Barefootsies

Sounds like a plan.

Yep. I have not problem kicking in some 'incentives' for quality work, done on time, commitments met. For models) showing up on time, doing what we need, same caliber (or better) work each shoot, and so on..

Models, designers, and other off line things... Doing it right, and staying on target keeps the money rolling, minimal delays, and everything nice and smooth. It helps everyone keep the wheels greased and profitable.

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aico

In this industry everything is on a "need it yesterday" schedule. Due to this fact, many projects are not coordinated correctly, people make unrealistic promises, contracts are not produced and agreed upon, project timelines are not created, and many other problematic things occur. This creates an end result of failure.

Barefootsies

You sing the song my son.

From experience, I have heard many designers complain of that for sure. Especially on TGP's, and galleries. Some of the worst (I've heard) is people wanting insane designs for $50.

I have paid from low, to high end on those. I've been very satisfied on the high end. So I do not have a problem paying for the quality work. When I get into bigger projects with DB's, CSS, and a lot of functionality for flag ship type sites. I know it's going to cost thousands. I know it's not going to be done tomorrow. I am not trying to get bigger things for a few hundred bucks. But..

call backs, quotes, and blown timelines are always annoying. For example, if it's going to take a month, then you should be at certain bench marks along the way so I can look at it, and make sure we are going the right way, and any little tweaks can be done before delivery. When those things are not met, or you can't be reached because of (insert endless excuses here) then it's annoying.

When you blow a time line by 6 months, it's infuriating. Even more so that you see expect to get paid for this.

We have some bigger flagship mainstream projects on tap, and we are working on a confidentiality, but I am insisting they work in some 'commitment' clauses on designers to eliminate the frustrations, and grief as we move forward. I am not sure when he will have them all done because we are in the preliminaries. But if it's a $5K+ design, and it's going to take a month. So be it. But just as I pay 100% cash, you need to provide 100% service.

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Barefootsies

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Deej

Damn good sammich!

and a bump for truth

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mailman

Well for what its worth I just put in another order today with AJ for some more promo stuff Be sure to hit him up im positive you will be impressed.

testpie

I hear so many stories like this on GFY, so much so that I'm considering becoming a full-time designer and coder, but the thing that is holding me back is that too many people (msyelf included) in this industry seem to be tight with money, so I'd have to compete against Russian and Chinese coders who seem to be able to knock up a forum, CMS and YouTube clone for less than a dollar.

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Gratzie

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Deej

That is a problem, but there are plenty of clients that dont want to deal with the language barrier or just like home bred products...

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Barefootsies

There are plenty of us adult, and mainstream who will pay for a good English speaking coder. I've outsourced before to the Czech Republic, and talk about blown time lines... My LAWD.

I would never deal with it again. If you can't speak good English, on something that is a major design project, then you are only asking for trouble and will get it. I will not even hire non English for TGP's, and small time things.

When something is complex, and you have to have the client, and coder on the same page. Being able to speak the same language is key. I'm sure there are plenty of Russian, or other outsource companies out there who can make you a $10k design for a dollar. But.. I prefer that it be the design I ask for, in the time frame I am given, that works as I specified, with minimal grief.

One thing people do not seem to understand is that if you pay the extra, and it's done right the FIRST TIME, it saves you countless cost in the time, effort, and headaches later.

For me, it's worth it.

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EZRhino

Nice thread, Ive always had those problems with deisgners. Probably the design team that has never let me down has been Mansion Productions programers and designers. And always rolled with the punches and abrupt corrections some of my clients have made.

jayeff

I do mostly layout and valid (re-)coding, rather than Photoshop-based design, but it's the same basic market. Unreliable people drive me nuts, so I set out to provide a service I would be happy with myself. Mostly I have succeeded, but it is extremely difficult in adult especially.

If you are going to price yourself properly, you allow time for revisions, ongoing support, the bits of "dead" time you will not be able to fill, talking to clients, etc, etc. Mainstream prices allow you to do all that as well as to take much more time over the job itself, even to hire people for some of the bells and whistles which might not be your own strength.

It's less that the market puts you in competition with east European or Asian, than that despite the regular stream of complaints, adult webmasters invariably go for cheap, even if it means dubious skills, lack of organization, etc.

So with all the safety valves screwed shut to compete, you regularly get a situation like I had in March when I agreed schedules with four clients who then all vanished. One guy, the very next day after agreeing a schedule, went off on a 5-day trip without giving me any instructions! Murphy's Law: they all show up again at once, wanting you to catch up on your promised schedule. But they weren't originally scheduled together, you lost time when they went AWOL, they didn't give you a new start date, and so you are in the middle of someone else's work.

I'm sure every designer and coder could write a book of similar stories, so it wouldn't hurt to bear in mind that the faults are not all on one side.

Barefootsies

....an added note to this point.

In all the design work I've had done in 10 years or so, I would have NEVER had to pay this because they have never been on time.

Although there have been some I was very pleased with their work, and end result.

Still, to earn repeat business you must/not do the following.

1. Pull Houdini's where you vanish for days/weeks/months at a time.
2. Show progress on the design during the time frame.
3. Not keep taking 'liberties' that were not specified, or ok'd which later delay things.
4. Keep your commitments. Whether call backs, quotes, or completion dates. This is easily my number one pet peeve. If you think it will take a week, but you are not sure, tell me 10 days. If it's going to take a month because you are backlogged, tell me that. Just keep me in the loop, and stay on target. I am not going to run off if your reputation, and portfolio show you are da man for the job. I'll wait. I prefer one headache over a dozen.
5. I want to hear solutions. Not excuses. I've heard all the designer classics. Taxes, computer blew up, internet out, power out, death in family, friend's in town, etc. I don't care. I only care about your being paid for work to deliver on time. If I had a listen of excuses when it came to paying you, then you'd be throwing a hissy fit. No different.
6. Give 100% on all work. Whether a TGP, gallery, or $3k website w/ CMS. I want to see the same caliber every time. Not favoritism. I can understand why, but if I am a repeat client, I expect the same caliber of work always.

This list could go on. But you are starting to see the point. Plenty of gripes both sides of the fence, however, it's clear there are few good designers, and they are cherished like goldmine's in the war chest. But I expect over time, as the internet ages, and e-commerce blooms you are going to see more companies going to contracts where they lock web designers into keeping their commitments on time, or cutting their rates for each commitment/week late on delivery.

All I have to say to that is, it's long overdue. I have no problem dragging someone into court if they break a contract. Whether the design end, or the dead beat who doesn't pay.

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Barefootsies

Agreed.

It's not all one sided. It goes both ways. However, if you are going for the thousand dollar design for $50 with the Russians, expect problems. You will have them.

However, I would have to say between the adult, mainstream, and webmaster boards there are far more complaints to bad Houdini designers then the dead beats who do not pay. Both ends are bad.

This goes to the underlying issue that this business let's just about any living in the basement with mom, fry cook to get into it and call themselves a 'webmaster'. So they are trying to win the lotto on a $50 design.

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Barefootsies

Oh, and an additional note to the last.

I agree. A lot of designers take on more work then they could ever possibly complete to compensate for down time, and such. Never factoring in that they live a life too.

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BlueDesignStudios

If you're upset with your current designer, please give us a try, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised

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Barefootsies

plural.

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harvey

that happens because you didn't use my services

j/k

anyway, for every case like yours I know 10 on the opposite side (aka "the designer got fucked"). Last time it happened to me I had a severe pneumonia, I was hospitalized for 3 days and the same day I got back home with a fucking oxygen bottle I kept working on a design. Then they wanted a whole different approach/look and I made it (still ill, as I still am). All cool, just a subtle change and *puff* Houdini has left the house. Not a single cent for 2 weeks of work, go figure. And I see cases like this on a daily basis.

I won't go on a "corporative" defense on designers since I agree most are slackers and a lot of people usually calls me to solve all the troubles they have for trying to save 20 bucks (hence paying twice), but I won't generalize on all designers (nor all clients, of course)

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Barefootsies

I've conceeded there are plenty of fry cook dead beats out there who are just as bad, or worse. However, I can only speak for my experience(s) with both high and low end design work.

A lot of it I think is a combination of bad time management, laziness, or taking on too much work. Or their are working on their magician act, and have the "Houdini" down pat.

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tranza

Just passing by.........

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Barefootsies

**winks suggestively**

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Angry Jew Cat - Banned for Life

same thing can be side from the other side of the story too. the safe zone for this type of work exchange over the internet is pretty small at times. i am getting tired of chasing people around for payments up to 2 weeks, a month, 2 months later. you can't NOT take a cut up front if you're doing any design work, as you the contractor should definitely not be paying anything more than 50% up front.

the best thing you can do is work only with people who come thoroughly recommended by people YOU trust...

Barefootsies

True dat.

Recommendations are key.

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dropped9

what about the clients who disappear for weeks, then pop up all of a sudden and expect it done yesterday?

As a designer I find that to be a big problem. Its hard enough to schedule projects and estimate times of completion and what not... Then throw in a client you've been waiting on for a week or more and you're really fucked.

It goes both ways.

Barefootsies

While I have never done this scenario personally.


But how much does this really happen where a client vanishes? I would think MOST are around, or available, to make sure you stay on track.

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Angry Jew Cat - Banned for Life

happens quite a bit, believe me. i had a guy drop out on me a while back, and i have been chasing another for a while without really knowing if i'll ever see payment. it's funny how excuses begin to pile up, especially when the question "where's my money?" is introduced. i hear this scenario pretty regularly from others i know who do design and writing work. people up and drop then magically appear out of nowhere expecting their jobs done. or give you a shitty description of what they want done, then add a pile of extra crap onto what you were given when you quoted the job, expecting to get it all done for the same price...

i've learnt my lessons the hard way, and would much rather work with someone i or someone i know has a history of good exchanges with...

dropped9

I've had 3 clients disappear at one time for 2 weeks. Then show up expecting the work completed by the end of the weekend.

It happens all the time. And if they think this is acceptable.

It really sucks when you are waiting on comments and changes on mock ups and what not.

dropped9

Then they give you ZERO content! AND the content you do get is vid screen caps!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had a guy place a small banner order. He gave me 0 content. I went out bought a few pics to use, figuring I would then earn a new client cause I went the extra mile for him.

He came back, told me the banners were horrible and each of them needed changes. I said fuck you, here's your 50 bucks for 5 banners and wasting my time.

Barefootsies

Wow!

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Barefootsies

Madness.

Sounds like you went over and above.

As I have said, there is plenty both ends. However I am coming to believe contracts, both ends, will end the waste of my company's time anyway.

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cj_purve

I'm grateful for all of those useless designers, because by the time the client comes to me they are very easily satisfied LOL

Barefootsies, if you are interested in testing some designers publicly I'm sure there's a few of us here who will happily have our service put to the test. I'm happy to accept a contract with a financial penalty for not meeting deadlines, provided all material is provided at an agreed time.

I provide or am provided with contracts for almost all of my mainstream clients, and can do the same for adult although I am rarely asked and most of my clients i've been working with for years so we skip the formalities & I keep their prices down. But you'll generally scare away most fly by night designers with contract talk so its a great idea to make that a step in your future transactions.

I can understand why most of the people who complain on here about designers have trouble, but you seem to be very clear about how you work so I am surprised you can't find a few designers to work with on a long term basis ... I hope you have better luck after this thread ;-)

Barefootsies

Well a lot of times I have stayed because of loyalty sake. But it's really becoming a pain. It's business, and it's time to step up to the plate and treat it like one.

Friends is friends. D'is is bidness.

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cj_purve

yeah i gotta confess, if I am going to keep anyone waiting its usually my friends ... they are less likely to take their work elsewhere for fear of offense ;-)

Barefootsies

Exactly.

In my experience if you are a repeat customer, for some reason, you get put at the back of the line prioritizing other clients. Or, the quality of work slides to meet deadlines.

Unacceptable.

When it's repeat business, you should give it "top notch guy priority" to keep the contract. When your work slides, deadlines are passed, and I start hearing designer's excuse handbook, then I pull the contract and go elsewhere.

The difference in the past was there was no monetary penalty.

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Barefootsies

Which designers slash programmers have others had good experience with?

PHP/CMS/CSS/DB's

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Angry Jew Cat - Banned for Life

I you're looking for a guy who's really solid with his php, talk to Chariott...

Barefootsies

He must be low key. I do not recognize the handle.

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