100% Proof that you are being shaven - GoFuckYourself.com

DrGuile · 09-27-2002, 02:07 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/27/te...gy/27FREE.html

NYTimes article, requires registration, but here it is:

New Software Quietly Diverts Sales Commissions
By JOHN SCHWARTZ and BOB TEDESCHI

Some popular online services are using a new kind of software to divert sales commissions that would otherwise be paid to small online merchants by big sites like Amazon and eToys.

Critics call the software parasite-ware and stealware. But the sites that use the software, which is made by nearly 20 companies and used by dozens, say that it is perfectly legal, because their users agree to the diversion.

The amounts involved are estimated by those in the industry to have mounted into the hundreds of thousands of dollars and are likely to continue to grow ? in part because most users are unaware that the software is operating on their computers.

There is no cost to the customer, but those who run small Web sites that funnel sales to the big merchants say that they are being hurt. "It's painful when someone walks in and takes sales right from under me," said Shawn Collins, who runs a number of sites that feed customers to Amazon and other merchants. "I probably saw a drop-off of 30 percent in income for the past six months."

The diversion begins when consumers get software from the Internet that helps them swap music or other files, or find bargains online. As they install the software, they are asked whether they would also like to show support for the software maker by shopping through an online affiliate program. These programs typically give a percentage of each purchase back to the affiliate ? in this case, the software maker ? as a commission.

What the consumers are not told clearly is that if they agree to participate, their computers may be electronically marked: all future purchases will look as if they were made through the software maker's site, even if they were not.

In many versions of the software, a purchase will look as if it was made through the software maker's site even if the shopper came in through another site that has its own affiliate agreement with the online store in question. Those affiliate sites include small businesses and even charities that use affiliate links as fund-raisers.

Some version of the diversion software is used by some of the most popular music trading sites that have tried to fill the void left by the collapse of Napster, including Morpheus, Kazaa and LimeWire. The companies say their software has been downloaded by tens of millions of Web surfers.

Although estimates are hard to come by, those in the business say that the amount of money involved could be large. The affiliate market, in which smaller sites funnel sales to larger ones in return for commissions, accounts for roughly 15 to 20 percent of the estimated $72 billion online market, said Carrie Johnson, an analyst with Forrester Research. A successful affiliate Web site can make $60,000 a month from referrals alone, said Haiko De Poel Jr., chief executive of Abestweb, an online forum devoted to affiliate marketing. He has organized owners of sites to fight Morpheus and others.

A spokeswoman for Amazon, which has 800,000 affiliate sites feeding it customers, said the company worked to protect those sites from hijacking. "We don't allow sites that use a download or a tool to redirect a shopping session to their account if they do not initiate the shopping session," said the spokeswoman, Patty Smith. "We've kicked out a number of sites for doing that."

Last week, Amazon cut off affiliate payments to Morpheus, one site that employs the shopping software, said an online executive. Coldwater Creek, an online clothing store, has also blocked Morpheus.

Some companies that make and use the diversion software said they were rewriting the programs so that they would no longer take money intended for others. But these changes may not affect copies of the software already installed on millions of computers. "We're not interested in stealing any Web site's revenue," said Greg Bildson, chief operating officer for LimeWire. "We know that this is sort of a new and sort of strange area, but we're interested in doing the right thing." He referred calls to TopMoxie, the maker of the software that LimeWire uses to get affiliate money.

Patrick Toland, a vice president for sales and marketing at TopMoxie, said that the company did not intend for its software to displace other affiliates' rights and that his company had altered the software in the last two weeks to stop substituting its affiliate identification code for those of other sites. "The second we realized this is a problem, we turned that boat around and said, `Let's get this out,' " he said. He added that the amount of money involved was minuscule.

Mr. Toland attributed the losses that the Web sites claimed to a tougher marketplace for small players.

Morpheus referred inquiries to Wurld Media, which operates its shopping rebates program. Kirk H. Feathers, the chief technical officer of Wurld Media, said that it had been wrongly accused of stealing and that the company would readily go to court to defend itself.

He acknowledged that an earlier version of the company's software did divert commissions away from other affiliate sites but said that new versions dealt with that situation. Now, the company said, the softwareoffers a choice to the consumer before each purchase: whether to give the commission to the affiliate or to himself in the form of a rebate, with a portion of the rebate going to Morpheus. The software does not misrepresent the user's computer to sellers' sites, Mr. Feathers said.

Arguments that the diversions are somehow the fault of an unintentional flaw do not persuade Erik Petersen, the chief technical officer at an Internet security company, Polar Cove, in Providence, R.I. Mr. Petersen said that he had received complaints about TopMoxie and LimeWire from friends and took a closer look. After conducting a detailed analysis of the software, he concluded that the TopMoxie program was intricately designed to substitute its affiliate identification code for that of other sites as transactions were made. He said that the program remained on the computer even if the user removed the original LimeWire music sharing software. "I don't buy their explanation," he said. "What kind of accident is that?"

Mr. Petersen also pointed to a statement made in an online forum where the technology was discussed, in which a LimeWire developer characterized accusations that the software diverts money as "pretty accurate," but said, "While I agree that this is really a bit of a scam, it is a way for us to pay salaries while not adversely affecting our users."

A chief executive of one software company was similarly unapologetic about the diversion of commissions. "We look at affiliates as competitors," said Avi Naider, the chief executive of WhenU.com, which makes the diversion software used by the music swapping services Kazaa and BearShare. The software, he said, provides services to users and money to each company "so it doesn't have to charge" for the currently free software and services.

The companies also argue that consumers give consent to the terms of the contract when they download the software, whether they read the agreement carefully or not. An expert in online consumer protection said the companies had a point. In the case of the LimeWire agreement, for example, "there does seem to be some indication to the user of what's going on," said David Medine, a Washington lawyer and former Federal Trade Commission official.

Mr. Medine said that he was, however, uncomfortable with the degree of disclosure. "The question is whether the quality of the notice is as good as it could be," he said. "They don't tell you that it's interfering with other business relationships."

Jeff Pullen, the president of Commission Junction, a company that helps link affiliates with Web sites, said that he was not inclined to cut off companies that divert commissions if the customer has agreed to the diversion. "The tactics that they use, maybe they're on the edge," he said. "Maybe, personally, I don't find them particularly attractive. But if they aren't illegal, it's hard for me to point to my public service agreement and say, `I have a reason to kick you off my network.' "

Still, other online merchants are taking action after being confronted by angry affiliates ? and they find that they are dealing with a moving target. TigerDirect, an online computer and electronics store, blocked Morpheus from its program earlier this year after discovering that the company was diverting online commissions. "I obviously thought it wasn't honorable," said Andy Rodriguez, the company's manager of affiliate marketing. "They said, `It's our right.' I said, `It's our right to remove you.' "

Morpheus changed its software, Mr. Rodriguez said, but a few weeks ago TigerDirect noticed that sales through Morpheus were "going through the roof" at the same time that many affiliates were complaining of a drop in commissions. So he blocked them again. "Guys at Morphus wanted a piece of the pie for each of our sales," he said. "I'm sorry. Absolutely not.

The diversion programs have made life difficult for affiliate marketers in the last year, said Steve Messer, chief executive of LinkShare, a company that runs a major affiliate network. But he sees a silver lining. "It's showed affiliate marketing has come of age," Mr. Messer said. "If you look at it, the volume of transactions passing through LinkShare's affiliate marketing got so big that when affiliates get upset, the largest merchants in the world react. If it's just a few dollars, nobody would've noticed."

quiet · 09-27-2002, 02:09 PM

interesting post

DrGuile · 09-27-2002, 02:09 PM

They dont mention adult programs, but get real!

Thats the biggest market, why wouldnt they touch it?

They must be making a fucking fortune.

Id be very curious to see what big name programs have to say about this.

Anyone?

Fletch XXX · 09-27-2002, 02:10 PM

Long, but nice.

Thanks for pasting it.

Ludedude · 09-27-2002, 02:15 PM

That was enlightening but not surprising. Why not do some research and see if you can find affiliate software that allows you to set ratios or shave clicks directly ;)

nocostporn · 09-27-2002, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DrGuile
They dont mention adult programs, but get real!

Thats the biggest market, why wouldnt they touch it?

They must be making a fucking fortune.

Id be very curious to see what big name programs have to say about this.

Anyone?

I've said it before,go look at the cookie cutter stat programs some sponsors are using,just ask the programmers if a shaving script is built in and you will be surprised... Of course I wouldn't mention names though and not saying everybody that uses those packages shaves BUT the option is there

Lexxx · 09-27-2002, 02:19 PM

Nice post.

Where can I get that proggy??

Mutt · 09-27-2002, 02:22 PM

uh.........that was invented the day after the first clickthru program came out.

but this spyware shit which redirects sales is scary. thing is that if they try to do it in adult, it won't be 24 hours before you have GFY and all the other boards filled with 'WTF Is Up With PornoBucks?!?!'. It will be very obvious, can't fly under the radar screen in adult for long.

DrGuile · 09-27-2002, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nocostporn

I've said it before,go look at the cookie cutter stat programs some sponsors are using,just ask the programmers if a shaving script is built in and you will be surprised... Of course I wouldn't mention names though and not saying everybody that uses those packages shaves BUT the option is there

did you read the article?

Morpheus, Kazaa and others are installing stuff on YOUR computer that changes the link codes in your webpages when surfers click on them from an "infected" computer.

Nothing to do with affilate programs shaving.

pimpdog3 · 09-27-2002, 02:27 PM

appleboy · 09-27-2002, 02:30 PM

does anyone know a javascript that would prevent this??

Theo · 09-27-2002, 02:30 PM

great idea! i'm gonna do the same by offering free software to my surfers.

thanks for posting this article

DrGuile · 09-27-2002, 02:31 PM

now, who wants to test it?

format a computer, put kazaa, limewire, morpheus and all that on it,

than go surfing your pages and click your links and look if the affiliate code was changed.

That way we'll know which affiliate programs they have already targeted.

Lensman · 09-27-2002, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DrGuile

Morpheus, Kazaa and others are installing stuff on YOUR computer that changes the link codes in your webpages when surfers click on them from an "infected" computer.

Exactly, I can see some of these ActiveX exploiters pulling shit like this too.

We all need to keep our eyes open for this.

salsbury · 09-27-2002, 03:00 PM

this is VERY old news.. i'm surprised you guys didn't hear about it before. some company was doing this with Amazon affiliate links.

Pornwolf · 09-27-2002, 03:56 PM

Damnit! Where's the Porn Mafia when we really need them! We need some techno 'head crackin' for this one!

chass · 09-27-2002, 06:07 PM

How do you tell if you have it????

12clicks · 09-27-2002, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DrGuile

Morpheus, Kazaa and others are installing stuff on YOUR computer that changes the link codes in your webpages when surfers click on them from an "infected" computer.

Perhaps you should stop supporting copyright thieves like Kazaa and Morpheus then.
honesty begins at home.

DrGuile · 09-27-2002, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 12clicks

Perhaps you should stop supporting copyright thieves like Kazaa and Morpheus then.
honesty begins at home.

how am I supporting them?

fiveyes · 09-27-2002, 09:01 PM

Just goes to show- there's no free lunch on the net...

kenny · 09-27-2002, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by appleboy
does anyone know a javascript that would prevent this??

Yea is there some kind of tag or script to prevent this?

12clicks · 09-27-2002, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DrGuile

how am I supporting them?

got any MP3s?

DrGuile · 09-27-2002, 09:12 PM

Dont you?

but the difference is mine are legal. Made from CD I own and songs bands offer for free.

Most "obscure" bands offer their songs for free... its good marketing

12clicks · 09-27-2002, 09:21 PM

um, right.

Dawgy · 09-27-2002, 10:22 PM

i find it interesting that they defend themselves via their USER terms of service... they arent fucking the users, theyre fucking the site OWNERS

if i go visit some gallery and join a site, i couldnt care less who gets the comission. kazaa hasnt fucked me, i still get my porn. kazaa has fucked that webmaster.

and that webmaster did NOT agree to their terms, therefore in my opinion they are STEALING just as if u walked into a bank and took money from the safe....

kenny · 09-27-2002, 10:28 PM

I never used kazaa or do I know much about it, but does it show up as a browser in the env? If so I can write a small script to redirect all traffic coming from there to a auto installing dialer or something

cherrylula · 09-27-2002, 10:52 PM

Fuck amazon... they only pay like 3% on their overpriced crap anyhow.

Oh gee sob, sob. So they have to pay kazaa for bringing a whorde of customers to their site, a whopping single digit comission.

kenny · 09-27-2002, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cherrylula
Fuck amazon... they only pay like 3% on their overpriced crap anyhow.

Oh gee sob, sob. So they have to pay kazaa for bringing a whorde of customers to their site, a whopping single digit comission.

From what I understand kazaa changes the linking codes in URLs, so if a surfer was looking at a gallery page and clicked on your banner and signed up, the linking code would have been changed so that kazaa gets the credit and not the webmaster. So nobody is getting fucked except the middle man

09-27-2002, 02:07 PM	#1
DrGuile Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,025	100% Proof that you are being shaven http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/27/te...gy/27FREE.html NYTimes article, requires registration, but here it is: New Software Quietly Diverts Sales Commissions By JOHN SCHWARTZ and BOB TEDESCHI Some popular online services are using a new kind of software to divert sales commissions that would otherwise be paid to small online merchants by big sites like Amazon and eToys. Critics call the software parasite-ware and stealware. But the sites that use the software, which is made by nearly 20 companies and used by dozens, say that it is perfectly legal, because their users agree to the diversion. The amounts involved are estimated by those in the industry to have mounted into the hundreds of thousands of dollars and are likely to continue to grow ? in part because most users are unaware that the software is operating on their computers. There is no cost to the customer, but those who run small Web sites that funnel sales to the big merchants say that they are being hurt. "It's painful when someone walks in and takes sales right from under me," said Shawn Collins, who runs a number of sites that feed customers to Amazon and other merchants. "I probably saw a drop-off of 30 percent in income for the past six months." The diversion begins when consumers get software from the Internet that helps them swap music or other files, or find bargains online. As they install the software, they are asked whether they would also like to show support for the software maker by shopping through an online affiliate program. These programs typically give a percentage of each purchase back to the affiliate ? in this case, the software maker ? as a commission. What the consumers are not told clearly is that if they agree to participate, their computers may be electronically marked: all future purchases will look as if they were made through the software maker's site, even if they were not. In many versions of the software, a purchase will look as if it was made through the software maker's site even if the shopper came in through another site that has its own affiliate agreement with the online store in question. Those affiliate sites include small businesses and even charities that use affiliate links as fund-raisers. Some version of the diversion software is used by some of the most popular music trading sites that have tried to fill the void left by the collapse of Napster, including Morpheus, Kazaa and LimeWire. The companies say their software has been downloaded by tens of millions of Web surfers. Although estimates are hard to come by, those in the business say that the amount of money involved could be large. The affiliate market, in which smaller sites funnel sales to larger ones in return for commissions, accounts for roughly 15 to 20 percent of the estimated $72 billion online market, said Carrie Johnson, an analyst with Forrester Research. A successful affiliate Web site can make $60,000 a month from referrals alone, said Haiko De Poel Jr., chief executive of Abestweb, an online forum devoted to affiliate marketing. He has organized owners of sites to fight Morpheus and others. A spokeswoman for Amazon, which has 800,000 affiliate sites feeding it customers, said the company worked to protect those sites from hijacking. "We don't allow sites that use a download or a tool to redirect a shopping session to their account if they do not initiate the shopping session," said the spokeswoman, Patty Smith. "We've kicked out a number of sites for doing that." Last week, Amazon cut off affiliate payments to Morpheus, one site that employs the shopping software, said an online executive. Coldwater Creek, an online clothing store, has also blocked Morpheus. Some companies that make and use the diversion software said they were rewriting the programs so that they would no longer take money intended for others. But these changes may not affect copies of the software already installed on millions of computers. "We're not interested in stealing any Web site's revenue," said Greg Bildson, chief operating officer for LimeWire. "We know that this is sort of a new and sort of strange area, but we're interested in doing the right thing." He referred calls to TopMoxie, the maker of the software that LimeWire uses to get affiliate money. Patrick Toland, a vice president for sales and marketing at TopMoxie, said that the company did not intend for its software to displace other affiliates' rights and that his company had altered the software in the last two weeks to stop substituting its affiliate identification code for those of other sites. "The second we realized this is a problem, we turned that boat around and said, `Let's get this out,' " he said. He added that the amount of money involved was minuscule. Mr. Toland attributed the losses that the Web sites claimed to a tougher marketplace for small players. Morpheus referred inquiries to Wurld Media, which operates its shopping rebates program. Kirk H. Feathers, the chief technical officer of Wurld Media, said that it had been wrongly accused of stealing and that the company would readily go to court to defend itself. He acknowledged that an earlier version of the company's software did divert commissions away from other affiliate sites but said that new versions dealt with that situation. Now, the company said, the softwareoffers a choice to the consumer before each purchase: whether to give the commission to the affiliate or to himself in the form of a rebate, with a portion of the rebate going to Morpheus. The software does not misrepresent the user's computer to sellers' sites, Mr. Feathers said. Arguments that the diversions are somehow the fault of an unintentional flaw do not persuade Erik Petersen, the chief technical officer at an Internet security company, Polar Cove, in Providence, R.I. Mr. Petersen said that he had received complaints about TopMoxie and LimeWire from friends and took a closer look. After conducting a detailed analysis of the software, he concluded that the TopMoxie program was intricately designed to substitute its affiliate identification code for that of other sites as transactions were made. He said that the program remained on the computer even if the user removed the original LimeWire music sharing software. "I don't buy their explanation," he said. "What kind of accident is that?" Mr. Petersen also pointed to a statement made in an online forum where the technology was discussed, in which a LimeWire developer characterized accusations that the software diverts money as "pretty accurate," but said, "While I agree that this is really a bit of a scam, it is a way for us to pay salaries while not adversely affecting our users." A chief executive of one software company was similarly unapologetic about the diversion of commissions. "We look at affiliates as competitors," said Avi Naider, the chief executive of WhenU.com, which makes the diversion software used by the music swapping services Kazaa and BearShare. The software, he said, provides services to users and money to each company "so it doesn't have to charge" for the currently free software and services. The companies also argue that consumers give consent to the terms of the contract when they download the software, whether they read the agreement carefully or not. An expert in online consumer protection said the companies had a point. In the case of the LimeWire agreement, for example, "there does seem to be some indication to the user of what's going on," said David Medine, a Washington lawyer and former Federal Trade Commission official. Mr. Medine said that he was, however, uncomfortable with the degree of disclosure. "The question is whether the quality of the notice is as good as it could be," he said. "They don't tell you that it's interfering with other business relationships." Jeff Pullen, the president of Commission Junction, a company that helps link affiliates with Web sites, said that he was not inclined to cut off companies that divert commissions if the customer has agreed to the diversion. "The tactics that they use, maybe they're on the edge," he said. "Maybe, personally, I don't find them particularly attractive. But if they aren't illegal, it's hard for me to point to my public service agreement and say, `I have a reason to kick you off my network.' " Still, other online merchants are taking action after being confronted by angry affiliates ? and they find that they are dealing with a moving target. TigerDirect, an online computer and electronics store, blocked Morpheus from its program earlier this year after discovering that the company was diverting online commissions. "I obviously thought it wasn't honorable," said Andy Rodriguez, the company's manager of affiliate marketing. "They said, `It's our right.' I said, `It's our right to remove you.' " Morpheus changed its software, Mr. Rodriguez said, but a few weeks ago TigerDirect noticed that sales through Morpheus were "going through the roof" at the same time that many affiliates were complaining of a drop in commissions. So he blocked them again. "Guys at Morphus wanted a piece of the pie for each of our sales," he said. "I'm sorry. Absolutely not. The diversion programs have made life difficult for affiliate marketers in the last year, said Steve Messer, chief executive of LinkShare, a company that runs a major affiliate network. But he sees a silver lining. "It's showed affiliate marketing has come of age," Mr. Messer said. "If you look at it, the volume of transactions passing through LinkShare's affiliate marketing got so big that when affiliates get upset, the largest merchants in the world react. If it's just a few dollars, nobody would've noticed." __________________ LiveBucks / Privatefeeds - Giving you money since 1999 Up to 50% Commission! 25% Webmaster Referal Powered by Gamma

09-27-2002, 02:09 PM	#3
DrGuile Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,025	They dont mention adult programs, but get real! Thats the biggest market, why wouldnt they touch it? They must be making a fucking fortune. Id be very curious to see what big name programs have to say about this. Anyone? __________________ LiveBucks / Privatefeeds - Giving you money since 1999 Up to 50% Commission! 25% Webmaster Referal Powered by Gamma

09-27-2002, 02:10 PM	#4
Fletch XXX GFY HALL OF FAME DAMMIT!!! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: that 504 Posts: 60,840	Long, but nice. Thanks for pasting it. __________________ Want an Android App for your tube, membership, or free site? Need banners or promo material? Hit us up (ICQ Fletch: 148841377) or email me fletchxxx at gmail.com - recent work - About me

09-27-2002, 02:19 PM	#7
Lexxx Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Boston Posts: 1,489	Nice post. Where can I get that proggy?? __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

09-27-2002, 02:22 PM	#8
Mutt Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 34,431	uh.........that was invented the day after the first clickthru program came out. but this spyware shit which redirects sales is scary. thing is that if they try to do it in adult, it won't be 24 hours before you have GFY and all the other boards filled with 'WTF Is Up With PornoBucks?!?!'. It will be very obvious, can't fly under the radar screen in adult for long. __________________ I moved my sites to Vacares Hosting. I've saved money, my hair is thicker, lost some weight too! Thanks Sly!

09-27-2002, 02:09 PM	#2
quiet we'll miss you our friend. RIP Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Fernie, BC Posts: 25,115	interesting post

09-27-2002, 02:15 PM	#5
Ludedude Suck it! Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Who wants to know? Posts: 4,432	That was enlightening but not surprising. Why not do some research and see if you can find affiliate software that allows you to set ratios or shave clicks directly ;)

09-27-2002, 02:27 PM	#10
pimpdog3 So Fucking Banned Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 652	nm

09-27-2002, 02:30 PM	#11
appleboy Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ny Posts: 291	does anyone know a javascript that would prevent this??

09-27-2002, 02:30 PM	#12
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,515	great idea! i'm gonna do the same by offering free software to my surfers. thanks for posting this article

09-27-2002, 02:31 PM	#13
DrGuile Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,025	now, who wants to test it? format a computer, put kazaa, limewire, morpheus and all that on it, than go surfing your pages and click your links and look if the affiliate code was changed. That way we'll know which affiliate programs they have already targeted. __________________ LiveBucks / Privatefeeds - Giving you money since 1999 Up to 50% Commission! 25% Webmaster Referal Powered by Gamma

09-27-2002, 03:00 PM	#15
salsbury Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,070	this is VERY old news.. i'm surprised you guys didn't hear about it before. some company was doing this with Amazon affiliate links. __________________

09-27-2002, 03:56 PM	#16
Pornwolf Drunk and Unruly Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hollywood Posts: 22,712	Damnit! Where's the Porn Mafia when we really need them! We need some techno 'head crackin' for this one! __________________ I've trusted my sites to them for over a decade... Webair, bitches.

09-27-2002, 06:07 PM	#17
chass Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Alamo City Posts: 498	How do you tell if you have it????

09-27-2002, 09:01 PM	#20
fiveyes Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: New Orleans Posts: 1,680	Just goes to show- there's no free lunch on the net... __________________ <CENTER><A HREF="http://www.hot-off-bourbon.com/" target="_blank"><IMG SRC="http://www.hot-off-bourbon.com/images/hob-logosmall.jpg" border="0"></A> <FONT face="Comic Sans MS" SIZE="-1"><I>Mardi Gras, Spring Break, Wet-T, Night Club Action, UpSkirt, Oil Wrestling, Voyeur</I></FONT></CENTER>

09-27-2002, 09:12 PM	#23
DrGuile Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,025	Dont you? but the difference is mine are legal. Made from CD I own and songs bands offer for free. Most "obscure" bands offer their songs for free... its good marketing __________________ LiveBucks / Privatefeeds - Giving you money since 1999 Up to 50% Commission! 25% Webmaster Referal Powered by Gamma

09-27-2002, 09:21 PM	#24
12clicks Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: God's right hand Posts: 19,789	um, right. __________________ I'm not a dinosaur, I'm a crocodile. I've seen dinosaurs come and go and I'm left unimpressed.

09-27-2002, 10:22 PM	#25
Dawgy Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 5,856	i find it interesting that they defend themselves via their USER terms of service... they arent fucking the users, theyre fucking the site OWNERS if i go visit some gallery and join a site, i couldnt care less who gets the comission. kazaa hasnt fucked me, i still get my porn. kazaa has fucked that webmaster. and that webmaster did NOT agree to their terms, therefore in my opinion they are STEALING just as if u walked into a bank and took money from the safe.... __________________ the revolution is coming.

09-27-2002, 10:28 PM	#26
kenny Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 7,245	I never used kazaa or do I know much about it, but does it show up as a browser in the env? If so I can write a small script to redirect all traffic coming from there to a auto installing dialer or something __________________ 7

09-27-2002, 10:52 PM	#27
cherrylula lol Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 15,969	Fuck amazon... they only pay like 3% on their overpriced crap anyhow. Oh gee sob, sob. So they have to pay kazaa for bringing a whorde of customers to their site, a whopping single digit comission.