Formula 1 vs CART

[mika]

This weekend the formula 1 is in Indianapolis. Qualifying session starts in an hour. So I thought I'd bring this up

I'm from Europe, where formula is #1
I'm from Finland, the country if F1 fanatics
My 1st name is same than Hakkinen's who is 2-time F1 world champion

However, I think CART is superior to F1.

The excitement is intense and it continues throughout the race.

Gotta love those speedways.

F1 - boring..

[drops]

Your Crazy!!

CART over F1? You've lost it..

I know a GM for one of the engine manufactures in CART.... And he said the F1 is far far advance..

You know..why am I wasting my time?

F1 qualifing on in 2min bitches... SpeedTV


Go Rubens!

[Steve]

CART is exciting, and much more competitive - but if they are in business in 2 years I will be surprised. They just lost three more teams to IRL, and there is no way they will run 18 cars/race - even with several teams talking about running 3 car teams (how they will afford it is another matter). IRL is sucking up the TV deals, and North American sponsorship money. CART stock is dropping like a rock. It doesn't look good for them right now.

F1 racing is much more expensive, and technically advanced. It is also less competitive right now, with Ferrari blowing away the other teams. That won't last forever, as it seems one team is always the top dog for a few years, and then the tables turn.

[drops]

Your correct Steve.

As competitive as CART is.. I just can't get into it.. I mean come on.. Ovals? WTF is that shit? I think they only do it to get the Nascar hicks to watch it..


my

You know.. I would love to know what Fanastyman thinks.. I think he's racing in the Trans am series that tours with CART next year..

[Steve]

CART races road courses, not just oval tracks/speedways. IRL is the league that just does speedways, and they have Indy 500, and the sponsor interest, as well as ABC TV coverage. IRL is basically kicking CARTs ass.

[Theo]

formula

[[Labret]]

gocart

[drops]

Originally posted by Steve
CART races road courses, not just oval tracks/speedways. IRL is the league that just does speedways, and they have Indy 500, and the sponsor interest, as well as ABC TV coverage. IRL is basically kicking CARTs ass.

I was only stateing the CART runs on ovals also... Let's not go into the IRL.. Just a bunch NASCAR crossovers into open wheel..

Can you imagine F1 on an Oval? (and don't say USGP is oval.. hehe)

I just can't get myself back into CART.. especially when then dropped the turbo format..

[FlyingIguana]

F1 has the best racers, cars and teams. its not even close.

[quiet]

Originally posted by Steve
F1 racing is much more expensive, and technically advanced. It is also less competitive right now, with Ferrari blowing away the other teams. That won't last forever, as it seems one team is always the top dog for a few years, and then the tables turn. [/B]

exactly. remember when turbos were still allowed - the reign of mclaren/honda?

the main reason i enjoy F1 is because it's truly the cutting edge of human/machine intergration. real-world cybernetics.

[jimmy3way]

CART is better in some ways because it's not so much an engineering exercise as F1.

When Villeneuve won the 500 from 2 laps down it was pure driving skill, because the shitbox Team Green Reynard he was driving was the same as everyone else's...which is why the races are so exciting.

When Montoya stormed to the CART championship it's because the quality of his driving was so superior...

These days in F1 the cars are as much in competetion as the drivers so while Schumi is among the greatest ever, it's his Ferrari F2002, also among the greatest ever, which maks him invincible.

Frankly I'd love to see Hakkinen, Coulthard, Raikkonen, Montoya Schumi, all of the talents in F1 fight each other in equal cars....that'd be some exciting ass shit.

Anyway Montoya would win.

[booker]

F1 is in a tough spot right now to make the races competative. As an engineer myself who has been involved in the motorsports industry for several years and who is looking to break into F1, I can say that teams like Ferrari win because they spend the money. F1 is 75-85% aerodynamics (depent on the track), and Ferrari spends more on aerodynamics per year than some teams spend on their entire car.

For those of us who are technically minded F1 is definitly more entertainment bang for buck.. to see Ferrari test the 2003 chassis in September and win is a real testament to their R&D.. if only they didn't hide their secrets so well, and let Speedvision get a closer look at some of the goodies.

F1 drivers in the same cars on a road course? Good question.. it's really tough to say. In the same cars, as in they are dropped into them cold? No time to tune the suspension or engine management to the driver's preference? No time to test and tune? I don't think that would be a very interesting race for the technically minded fan at all; to watch excellent drivers struggle with suspension and weight setups that don't suit their cornering preferences.

And as far as comments like "When Montoya stormed to the CART championship it's because the quality of his driving was so superior... " ..well, read above. The greatest driver of all time with a front suspension that is too stiff and a fuel map that doesn't give him power when _he_ needs it isn't going to turn very impressive lap times.

Likewise, "CART is better in some ways because it's not so much an engineering exercise as F1." ..hate to say it, but if you want fast cars that outperform those of last season, it is nothing BUT an engineering exercise. If you want grassroots racing check out NASCAR or NHRA where the specifications on engines and suspension setups are explicit for everyone.

[mika]

So what's wrong with ovals?

And dont just say that ovals require no driving skills compared to road courses. Ovals require different kind of driving skills maybe.

Surely the best oval track drivers couldn't compete in F1, but it works the other way, too, it'd be fun maybe hilarious to see Schumi racing in oval tracks.

I like the idea of 10 cars passing the chequered flag within 10 seconds, be it oval or not, than seeing 2 ferraris and an occasional Williams or McLaren finishing the race within the same goddamn LAP.

[drops]

Originally posted by mika
it'd be fun maybe hilarious to see Schumi racing in oval tracks.

That would be funny has hell to see Schumi with a Winston Cup car and a mullet...

[booker]

Another terrible misconception about race car drivers.. that a road racer couldn't go to ovals or the other way around.

Please.. these are professionals. Given a week or so of test & tune & practice, an primarily oval-track racer could adapt to the top level road racing fairly quickly, because they've done it before! And vice versa, road racers probabaly started on dirt circle tracks, no matter where in the world they started.

As far as technique.. it doesn't vary that much. You keep the engine in the operating range, keep the power to the ground, bring as much speed into the corner as you can and get back up to speed as quickly as you can. Racecar driving is a pretty simple thing in the end.

Oftentimes, the "skill" of a race car driver isn't something you see on TV.. it is the feedback he gives to the engineers and mechanics to design and set the car up.

Additioanlly, there's a quote that goes something like "the most spectacular race car driver is the one who can win without doing anything spectacular." This is most definitly the case at any level of competition. Turning in consistantly fast times, lap after lap, is what wins in the end, not 5 hot laps in the last 10 of 200.

[jimmy3way]

Originally posted by booker
F1 is in a tough spot right now to make the races competative. As an engineer myself who has been involved in the motorsports industry for ... For those of us who are technically minded F1 is definitly more entertainment bang for buck.. to see Ferrari test the 2003 chassis in September and win is a real testament to their R&D.. F1 drivers in the same cars on a road course? Good question.. it's really tough to say. ..hate to say it, but if you want fast cars that outperform those of last season, it is nothing BUT an engineering exercise..

Don't get me wrong dude, I'm in the third year of an aerospace engineering degree myself with the exact same aspirations and I love F1, the engineering, the predictable race finishes and all...but the fact is, to the NON technically minded it can be boring.

I think I'm just a frustrated Montoya fan because Ferrari came out with a monster car this year and teams like Williams and Mclaren simply weren't expecting to be blown off the track as badly as they have been.

At least Head said the FW 25 would be a complete design revolution. Let'sd hope so...although one wonders how many world constructor's championships Williams has left in them considering Newey works in Woking now...

Could you imagine Montoya and Schumi dueling for poles in identical spec F2002's? Not to mention race finishes?

I stand by my statement about Montoya's championship year in CART, he drove the wheels off that Target car and there wasn't shit anybody could do to stop him. The guy is an ace. Seven poles this year? A pole lap is pretty much the truest test of man vs. track and a guy who can outqualify Schumi on a regular basis is something special indeed.

[quiet]

it all depends on what you are interested in. if extreme technology and human/machine hybrids facinate you, then F1.

if day-to-day fair competition between drivers is your thing, the cart. although all the best drivers in the world (regardless of fairness in terms of technology) more or less flock to F1...

[Take_Aim]

Yeah i think since CART lost its major sponsors and Andretti as well as top class manufacturers (Mercedes-Benz, Penske) ... they have really fallen off... i stopped following CART after Greg Moore passed away... since then ... its popularity has waned... why doesn't the IRL come back... its such bullshit the IRL.... anyway... F1 is so boring these days... don't know how ppl watch it... really is monotonous.... Schumacher... Schumacher... Schumacher.... ecchhhh....

Time for CART to get back their sponsors and with that their fans ....


but definitely CART is more exciting than F1 at the moment....

[booker]

"Could you imagine Montoya and Schumi dueling for poles in identical spec F2002's? Not to mention race finishes?"

yeah, it would suck, because I highly doubt that the two drivers like their cars set up the exact same way. They'd both be slow and it would not be a measure of anything except how they could perform in some odd-ball poorly-tuned rocket with wheels.

"A pole lap is pretty much the truest test of man vs. track and a guy who can outqualify Schumi on a regular basis is something special indeed."

If you think the car setup for qualifying and racing is the same, you are sorely mistaken. There are drastic differences in fuel delivery, timing, aerodynamics, suspension stiffness and weight distrobution. As far as Montoya's being able to qualify higher than Schumacher on a regular basis? Perhaps Schumacher doesn't feel the need to post ungodly qualifying times and would rather have a strong reliable car for the actual race?

[jimmy3way]

Originally posted by booker
yeah, it would suck, because I highly doubt that the two drivers like their cars set up the exact same way. They'd both be slow and it would not be a measure of anything except how they could perform in some odd-ball poorly-tuned rocket with wheels.

Why do you go on and on about car set up? It's kind of assumed that a driver sets up a car the way he likes it. Since everything in an F1 car is variable from the width of the anti-submarine belt to the differential ratio...don't you think that anybody who watched F1 would assume that when a driver drives a car he sets it up the way he likes it?

Dude Sarah Fisher is some nobody ho' who got to drive a Mclaren today but she still flew to the factory for a seat fitting and a debrief with Alex Wurz...yes, car set up is complex; yes, we're all terribly proud that you know that; but get the fuck off of it, that is SO not the point.

[jimmy3way]

Originally posted by booker
As far as Montoya's being able to qualify higher than Schumacher on a regular basis? Perhaps Schumacher doesn't feel the need to post ungodly qualifying times and would rather have a strong reliable car for the actual race?

If you think Schumacher doesn't go out on every stint in qualifying gunning for pole YOU are sorely mistaken..f that were really the case do you think he would even bother to race after sewing up the championship?

We're talking about a guy who lost five kilos to compete in a charity karting race in the OFF SEASON here. If Schumi fires his engine it's for one reason and one reason only: to win.

Originally posted by booker
If you think the car setup for qualifying and racing is the same, you are sorely mistaken. There are drastic differences in fuel delivery, timing, aerodynamics, suspension stiffness and weight distrobution.

I think you're really seeing the trees for the forest here...all that stuff is true because...gee they don't even use the same engines for racing and qualifying, everybody knows that, nor do they use the same ducting, radiators, or even body work.

Hey guess what, we all have Speedvision and we all know this shit, ace.

[McAttack]

Having had the chance to see both Cart and F1 on my home track in Montreal, I gotta say that CART did an excellent job of giving fans access. That is nice to see cause when F1 comes to town, it's a HUGE party but you rarely see the drivers unless you go to the expensive restaurants and then you MIGHT catch a glimpse of Irvine or someone like that.

I've watched CART for a long time, I used to follow Indy Lights when that was around. Hell, I watched Cart when it rules and NASCAR drooled. I used to love it, never really liked ovals. The only thing I liked seeing on ovals was Greg Moore when he'd go around. It was insane how he could do 200 laps and go within 2 inches of the wall on every single lap. He kept the car where he wanted it at all times. I miss Moore, it was a sad sad day.

I've watched F1 since Schumacher's first season with the Jordan. I've seen Schumi evolve to the completely different driver he is now. He used to be an absolute speed demon and get the hot lap almost on command. Now he's much more calculating and he knows that his dominance is a factor in the mind of others. He uses it and that's great.

To the point, I love F1. I prefer it. Cart is lost. Cart keeps changing their marketing strategy ever month and it hurts it. They should remove the ovals, just go street and track. If people want to see ovals, go watch IRL or NASCAR. Cart has better drivers than IRL has. It's a shame that they lost DeFerran and Castro-Neves.

I hate ovals. Mullet-headed fans downing budweisers and waiting for a crash to happen. sickens me. Rusty Wallace started getting real popular when he started barreling his car almost every week.

[DTK]

Originally posted by FlyingIguana
F1 has the best racers, cars and teams. its not even close.

Couldn't say it any better

[Oldy]

Yeah! I also feel F1 is the best.