Ten Commandments for Pet Owners - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

theharvman · 08-15-2008, 11:49 AM

Great post I love my dog

TurboAngel · 08-15-2008, 11:49 AM

That was nice, I have gotten all my pets fixed as I do feel it's the right thing to do.

MOxxx · 08-15-2008, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babaganoosh

No vet would EVER tell you that it's a money issue. Especially not one who actually is under contract with the local shelter and sees the problem first-hand on a daily basis.

Any pet owner who doesn't spay or neuter his or her pet IS irresponsible, incompetent and unfit to care for an animal. If that dog escapes just once he will add to the already overwhelming overpopulation problem. If you really are a volunteer with the shelter (not a no-kill shelter) ask for stats on how many animals are euthanized every week just because nobody wants them. Want to guess how many of those euthanized animals were born because some shithead didn't want to spay or neuter their animal?

Here are some numbers from a few cities
http://www.spayusa.org/main_director...eys/graphs.asp

and some other assorted facts
http://www.shelterreform.org/SpayFact.html

Then there are the health benefits. Sure, there are risks too but the benefits far outweigh the risks.

Well i guess they were lying to me...what can i say?

As a FYI The ball cutting thing is predominantly a US practice, as far as know the majority of the developed countries in the world don't do it.

Which it makes me think a lot...

anyway i said it before let's post about our buddies and not personal Balls management practices .

LadyMischief · 08-15-2008, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bronco67

No but really, I wouldn't insinuate that you're a bad pet owner at all for not neutering. I'm sure you love your dog to death. Not that you give a shit what I think, as you try to make it so clear. Just saying you could be opening yourself up to things that might not need to deal with, by not doing the procedure. I doubt in any way that I could convince you to do something -- and I'm not trying to do that. Just shouldn't ignore and instantly devalue the opinions of folks (with little laughy icons) who might happen to know a lot about the subject, and have done plenty of research on it.

You claim that everyone are sheep, and there's some big marketing conspiracy, but you sound like the uneducated one.

Pretty much what I figure. This is a definite fact:
Neutering decreases and quite often eliminates the diseases that intact male dogs are often prone to later on such as prostate, testicle and other tissues and organs that are influenced by the male hormones. ESPECIALLY if they are never bred.

LadyMischief · 08-15-2008, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MOxxx

Well i guess they were lying to me...what can i say?

As a FYI The ball cutting thing is predominantly a US practice, as far as know the majority of the developed countries in the world don't do it.

Which it makes me think a lot...

anyway i said it before let's post about our buddies and not personal Balls management practices .

BULLLSHIIIIIT... Apparently you are very uneducated on the subject, because I have never heard this sentiment. I'm in Canada, and it's an even bigger call here to spay and neuter animals because our shelters are SHAMEFULLY overwhelmed too. Why? Because people aren't responsible enough, or are too cheap, to get their damn animals fixed.

LadyMischief · 08-15-2008, 01:05 PM

A female dog can have puppies a few times a year, a male can mate anytime, with any female, anywhere. And if they can, THEY WILL.

bushwacker · 08-15-2008, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MOxxx

that's a myth, I had 6 dogs in my life, all of them with the balls attached and never had prostate cancer.

I volunteer at the Human society and most of the vets there told me that it's a matter of $$$$. Simply another way for vets to make money.

So why do we remove stomach, loans, liver, etc?

You work at the humane society and you don't think it's a good idea to spay or neuter?

sltr · 08-15-2008, 01:36 PM

fyi, for the elitists.

it's clearly not a cut&dry issue.

yet, the name calling and *uneducated* comments are from that side.

--

Twenty years and more ago, pet sterilization was hailed as the only way to keep unwanted litters from clogging shelters and ultimately dying there to make room for even more unwanted litters. In the past decade the tide has turned: shelters have instituted their own sterilization policies and animal welfare advocates have conducted highly successful campaigns to decrease the number of unplanned and unwanted litters.

As a result of rescue and shelter sterilization policies, education about the practical aspects of the surgery, and an aggressive campaign by responsible breeders, veterinarians, and welfare groups, about 75 percent of dogs have been spayed or castrated and canine populations in shelters have dropped.

However, this decrease is not enough for radical groups.

research indicates that the health benefits of sterilization may be offset by the drawbacks and that owners should be aware of potential problems that can occur as a direct result of the surgery.

Neutering a dog reduces production of testosterone but does not eliminate this hormone. Thus a neutered dog, especially if he has a dominant character, may also retain his desire to roam and an assertive or even aggressive personality. Owners who depend on neutering to resolve behavior problems run a high risk of being disappointed unless they also train the pet to have good manners at home and in public.

Any surgery has drawbacks. Dogs can react badly to anesthesia in spite of precautions or can experience complications during recovery. Some dogs react negatively to the suture material used, and incisions do not heal properly.

Concurrent with the increase in laws and regulations regarding pet sterilization, research since 1990 has shown that spay and neuter surgeries may have specific drawbacks as well as benefits. Dogs neutered before puberty tend to have longer legs, flatter chests, and narrower skulls that intact dogs of their breeds because the hormones that regulate sexual activity also interact with hormones that guide growth of muscles, bones, and tendons. These physical differences can place more stress on joints and can cause problems for active dogs, especially those in training for agility and those that work in physically stressful jobs.

Additional drawbacks specific to spay surgery include increased incidence of bladder incontinence, triple the frequency of thyroid disease, and higher risk of some cancers, joint problems, and obesity and adverse reactions to vaccinations.

POINTS AGAINST STERILIZATION

1. Dogs may gain weight after being altered.

It is true that some animals may tend to gain weight after they are sterilized (Fettman 1997, Root 1995). The removal of the sex hormones may tend to slow an animal's metabolism somewhat (Flynn 1996), although some studies have found no differences in weight between intact and sterilized animals (Salmeri 1991a).

However, many dogs are altered just as they are reaching maturity. At this time in their lives, even dogs who are NOT altered will be gaining weight and slowing down a bit, so any change you see in your pet may not have anything to do with being sterilized. If you DO notice a weight gain after your dog is altered, simply decrease the amount of food you are feeding and increase the exercise your dog gets every day.

2. Altered dogs may be taller than intact dogs.

It is true that dogs who are sterilized before they have reached full maturity may be slightly taller than they would be if they had been left intact. Sex hormones influence the end of bone growth after puberty. Since the sex hormones never arrive in dogs which are altered before maturity, the bones tend to continue growing for longer than they would in the intact dog. However, this difference is very slight overall -- and the dogs being altered are NOT show dogs, so a little extra height is of little significance. Also, there does not appear to be any difference in size between puppies sterilized very early (6-10 weeks) and those altered later (7 months) (Crenshaw 1995, Lieberman 1987).

3. Sterilized dogs may become incontinent.

Some altered dogs may develop a problem with controlling their urine output. This is especially likely in females, but may also happen in males (Aaron 1996, Arnold 1997a). It is thought that this problem arises because the loss of sex hormones affects the strength of the urinary sphincter muscle (Gregory 1994). One researcher has claimed that incontinence may occur in as many as 20% of all spayed dogs (Arnold 1997a), but other vets believe this rate is much lower (Thrusfield 1993).

Fortunately, the problem may be as minor as a few drops here and there, and it is usually easy to control with inexpensive drugs such as phenylpropanolamine (Arnold 1997b, Heughebaert 1988). Sometimes estrogen replacement may be necessary. Incontinence problems may last for the rest of the dog's life. However, incontinence may also disappear after a few months or a few years (Heughebaert 1988, Arnold 1989). Also, keep in mind that older dogs will sometimes develop incontinence even if they are left intact, so incontinence is not always related to sterilization.

4. Sterilized dogs are more likely to have problems with hypothyroidism.

A few dogs, especially bitches, may be more likely to have problems with decreased thyroid function after they are altered (Panciera 1994). Fortunately, thyroid problems are easy to treat with inexpensive thyroid supplements. Also, some intact dogs will also experience hypothyroidism, so most cases of hypothyroidism are not actually due to being sterilized.

5. Bitches who are aggressive before being spayed may become more aggressive after being spayed.

This appears to be a valid concern for owners of aggressive bitches (O'Farrell 1990). However, it's an easy problem to avoid. If you have an intact bitch who is already aggressive, think seriously about letting her remain intact. If your intact bitch is NOT aggressive, spaying her is not likely to MAKE her aggressive.

6. Sterilization, especially spaying, is an invasive surgical procedure.

There are risks involved with any surgery, both from the surgery itself and from the anesthetic agent. However, the rate of complications is very low, and serious complications are especially rare. Especially with newer anesthetic agents like isofluorane and newer suture materials, there are rarely any serious problems. Significant complications of sterilization surgeries occur in roughly only 1-4% of surgeries (Pollari 1995, 1996). Also, the surgical procedure actually appears to be *safer* when performed in younger puppies, with less serious complications occurring overall in young puppies than in puppies altered at later ages (Fagella 1994).

7. Sterilization is expensive.

Surgical costs may be as low as $25 or as high as $300, depending on the size and age of the dog, whether the dog is male or female, and the area of the country in which you live. There are low cost spay/neuter clinics in many areas these days for people who can't otherwise afford the procedures. And in some areas you will actually SAVE money by sterilizing your dog, if licensing fees are lower for altered pets.

8. The size of the external genitals may be smaller in dogs who are sterilized before puberty.

The penis of the male and the vagina of the female may be somewhat smaller in dogs who have been altered before puberty (Salmeri 1991a, 1991b). However, it is usually of little functional consequence to the dog. In a breed which is predisposed to urinary tract blockage, such as male dalmatians, this may be a problem; but in most breeds this is not likely to cause any medical complications. Very occasionally, bitches who were altered at very young ages may develop some skin irritation in the vulvar region (Jagoe 1988), but this also is not a common occurrence.

sniperwolf · 08-15-2008, 02:00 PM

sweeeet! I'll have that framed!

MOxxx · 08-15-2008, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sltr

fyi, for the elitists.

it's clearly not a cut&dry issue.

yet, the name calling and *uneducated* comments are from that side.

--

Twenty years and more ago, pet sterilization was hailed as the only way to keep unwanted litters from clogging shelters and ultimately dying there to make room for even more unwanted litters. In the past decade the tide has turned: shelters have instituted their own sterilization policies and animal welfare advocates have conducted highly successful campaigns to decrease the number of unplanned and unwanted litters.

As a result of rescue and shelter sterilization policies, education about the practical aspects of the surgery, and an aggressive campaign by responsible breeders, veterinarians, and welfare groups, about 75 percent of dogs have been spayed or castrated and canine populations in shelters have dropped.

However, this decrease is not enough for radical groups.

research indicates that the health benefits of sterilization may be offset by the drawbacks and that owners should be aware of potential problems that can occur as a direct result of the surgery.

Neutering a dog reduces production of testosterone but does not eliminate this hormone. Thus a neutered dog, especially if he has a dominant character, may also retain his desire to roam and an assertive or even aggressive personality. Owners who depend on neutering to resolve behavior problems run a high risk of being disappointed unless they also train the pet to have good manners at home and in public.

Any surgery has drawbacks. Dogs can react badly to anesthesia in spite of precautions or can experience complications during recovery. Some dogs react negatively to the suture material used, and incisions do not heal properly.

Concurrent with the increase in laws and regulations regarding pet sterilization, research since 1990 has shown that spay and neuter surgeries may have specific drawbacks as well as benefits. Dogs neutered before puberty tend to have longer legs, flatter chests, and narrower skulls that intact dogs of their breeds because the hormones that regulate sexual activity also interact with hormones that guide growth of muscles, bones, and tendons. These physical differences can place more stress on joints and can cause problems for active dogs, especially those in training for agility and those that work in physically stressful jobs.

Additional drawbacks specific to spay surgery include increased incidence of bladder incontinence, triple the frequency of thyroid disease, and higher risk of some cancers, joint problems, and obesity and adverse reactions to vaccinations.

POINTS AGAINST STERILIZATION

1. Dogs may gain weight after being altered.

It is true that some animals may tend to gain weight after they are sterilized (Fettman 1997, Root 1995). The removal of the sex hormones may tend to slow an animal's metabolism somewhat (Flynn 1996), although some studies have found no differences in weight between intact and sterilized animals (Salmeri 1991a).

However, many dogs are altered just as they are reaching maturity. At this time in their lives, even dogs who are NOT altered will be gaining weight and slowing down a bit, so any change you see in your pet may not have anything to do with being sterilized. If you DO notice a weight gain after your dog is altered, simply decrease the amount of food you are feeding and increase the exercise your dog gets every day.

2. Altered dogs may be taller than intact dogs.

It is true that dogs who are sterilized before they have reached full maturity may be slightly taller than they would be if they had been left intact. Sex hormones influence the end of bone growth after puberty. Since the sex hormones never arrive in dogs which are altered before maturity, the bones tend to continue growing for longer than they would in the intact dog. However, this difference is very slight overall -- and the dogs being altered are NOT show dogs, so a little extra height is of little significance. Also, there does not appear to be any difference in size between puppies sterilized very early (6-10 weeks) and those altered later (7 months) (Crenshaw 1995, Lieberman 1987).

3. Sterilized dogs may become incontinent.

Some altered dogs may develop a problem with controlling their urine output. This is especially likely in females, but may also happen in males (Aaron 1996, Arnold 1997a). It is thought that this problem arises because the loss of sex hormones affects the strength of the urinary sphincter muscle (Gregory 1994). One researcher has claimed that incontinence may occur in as many as 20% of all spayed dogs (Arnold 1997a), but other vets believe this rate is much lower (Thrusfield 1993).

Fortunately, the problem may be as minor as a few drops here and there, and it is usually easy to control with inexpensive drugs such as phenylpropanolamine (Arnold 1997b, Heughebaert 1988). Sometimes estrogen replacement may be necessary. Incontinence problems may last for the rest of the dog's life. However, incontinence may also disappear after a few months or a few years (Heughebaert 1988, Arnold 1989). Also, keep in mind that older dogs will sometimes develop incontinence even if they are left intact, so incontinence is not always related to sterilization.

4. Sterilized dogs are more likely to have problems with hypothyroidism.

A few dogs, especially bitches, may be more likely to have problems with decreased thyroid function after they are altered (Panciera 1994). Fortunately, thyroid problems are easy to treat with inexpensive thyroid supplements. Also, some intact dogs will also experience hypothyroidism, so most cases of hypothyroidism are not actually due to being sterilized.

5. Bitches who are aggressive before being spayed may become more aggressive after being spayed.

This appears to be a valid concern for owners of aggressive bitches (O'Farrell 1990). However, it's an easy problem to avoid. If you have an intact bitch who is already aggressive, think seriously about letting her remain intact. If your intact bitch is NOT aggressive, spaying her is not likely to MAKE her aggressive.

6. Sterilization, especially spaying, is an invasive surgical procedure.

There are risks involved with any surgery, both from the surgery itself and from the anesthetic agent. However, the rate of complications is very low, and serious complications are especially rare. Especially with newer anesthetic agents like isofluorane and newer suture materials, there are rarely any serious problems. Significant complications of sterilization surgeries occur in roughly only 1-4% of surgeries (Pollari 1995, 1996). Also, the surgical procedure actually appears to be *safer* when performed in younger puppies, with less serious complications occurring overall in young puppies than in puppies altered at later ages (Fagella 1994).

7. Sterilization is expensive.

Surgical costs may be as low as $25 or as high as $300, depending on the size and age of the dog, whether the dog is male or female, and the area of the country in which you live. There are low cost spay/neuter clinics in many areas these days for people who can't otherwise afford the procedures. And in some areas you will actually SAVE money by sterilizing your dog, if licensing fees are lower for altered pets.

8. The size of the external genitals may be smaller in dogs who are sterilized before puberty.

The penis of the male and the vagina of the female may be somewhat smaller in dogs who have been altered before puberty (Salmeri 1991a, 1991b). However, it is usually of little functional consequence to the dog. In a breed which is predisposed to urinary tract blockage, such as male dalmatians, this may be a problem; but in most breeds this is not likely to cause any medical complications. Very occasionally, bitches who were altered at very young ages may develop some skin irritation in the vulvar region (Jagoe 1988), but this also is not a common occurrence.

Dis it say Bitches?

is it a no-no word?

Babaganoosh · 08-15-2008, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sltr

fyi, for the elitists.

it's clearly not a cut&dry issue.

yet, the name calling and *uneducated* comments are from that side.

It is most certainly a "cut & dry" issue. It's an unequivocal fact that if you do not spay or neuter your animal, they WILL find a way to breed. The health benefits of sterilization outweigh any risk. The only possible reason for not getting your pet spayed or neutered is lack of funds. If you need help, let me know where you are and I will get you a free or greatly discounted neuter for your dog.

sltr · 08-15-2008, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babaganoosh

It is most certainly a "cut & dry" issue. It's an unequivocal fact that if you do not spay or neuter your animal, they WILL find a way to breed.

so you know for a fact that there's never been one single dog on this planet that never ever bred in his life if he had his testicles all his life.

again my position on pet snobs is confirmed.

Babaganoosh · 08-15-2008, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sltr

so you know for a fact that there's never been one single dog on this planet that never ever bred in his life if he had his testicles all his life.

again my position on pet snobs is confirmed.

As is my position on incompetent pet owners who refuse to provide the most basic care for their animals for whatever reason. I'll bet your dog isn't current on his shots either, is he? Parvo and rabies both? Didn't think so.

There is absolutely NO good reason not to spay or neuter. None.
http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_care/my...neutering.html

sltr · 08-15-2008, 05:27 PM

yah, this little guy's got a tough life eh.

i guess i do too, not being able to get my free neutering down at the wherever they do that when ya get the rabies shots.

the content guy · 08-15-2008, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sex2Have

Nice posting, loved to read it
Props for your humanitarian input... wished more people would be like this.

lofl

Babaganoosh · 08-15-2008, 05:28 PM

Cute little dog. It's a shame his owner is a fucking dolt.

notoldschool · 08-15-2008, 05:47 PM

great list.

LadyMischief · 08-15-2008, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babaganoosh

It is most certainly a "cut & dry" issue. It's an unequivocal fact that if you do not spay or neuter your animal, they WILL find a way to breed. The health benefits of sterilization outweigh any risk. The only possible reason for not getting your pet spayed or neutered is lack of funds. If you need help, let me know where you are and I will get you a free or greatly discounted neuter for your dog.

I had to pay almost $1100 each to get my dogs spayed, and it was because they both had THREE ovaries instead of two. My vet told me that if I had left them unspayed, they would have gone crazy with the hormones (and they did, I could hardly walk them, they were both in CONTINUAL heat), and if I hadn't let them breed they could easily have developed major problems. I was happy to do so... My parents family didn't get the family dog spayed when they should have... she never had a litter. She eventually died due to complications from a severely infected uterus, because she had never bred, she didn't go out of heat properly and died throwing up and in horrible agony. That was enough to convince me that no cost should be spared when it comes to handling animals properly. Hell, horse owners have known this for a long time, and horses are gelded ALL THE TIME. They have the same chances for "complication with sterilization" as any animal, yet it's still a common practice that has prevented many animals from becoming agressive and causing major issues. Why people are so stubborn about dogs I have no idea, but I suppose if they choose not to neuter, they are ready to deal with the consequences. Though I would hope they would then be willing to live in an area with no dogs, perhaps pay to have the females in the area spayed, or just give homes to all the puppies their dogs will father if they escape. Ridiculousness.

LadyMischief · 08-15-2008, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sltr

so you know for a fact that there's never been one single dog on this planet that never ever bred in his life if he had his testicles all his life.

again my position on pet snobs is confirmed.

There's LOTS of male dogs who people choose not to fix, and they tend to regret it in the animal's later years. One of the ladies at the dog park recently had to put her beloved male lab to sleep because she had not had him fixed, he NEVER bred, and he developed testicular cancer, anal polyps, all kinds of terrible complications. She told me that if she could do it all again, she would make the smart choice, because if she had when it counted, she'd still have her dog. It's LESS natural for a dog to remain intact and NOT to breed than it is to sterilize an animal that WILL NEVER breed.

sltr · 08-15-2008, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babaganoosh

Cute little dog. It's a shame his owner is a fucking dolt.

he had it especially rough as a puppy.

sltr · 08-15-2008, 06:01 PM

it wasn't always good times for my little Chaco!

here he is after getting orthopedic surgery on his leg, the surgeon put a pin in his knee after he broke it.

obviously, since i am so destitute and unable to provide Chaco! with even the most basic of care(your observation) the surgery was performed free of charges by a good samaratan vet.

LadyMischief · 08-15-2008, 06:05 PM

Well I hope that if Chico develops more issues because he's not fixed you will do the same thing, and hopefully rethink your position on sterilization for future pets. Remember, there IS NO SUCH THING as abstainance in nature. It's bordering on cruel to have an animal that has perfectly normal instinctual urges that are not allowed to be consummated or satisfied. Not only can it cause possibly physical damage, it can cause behavioral issues as well. In nature, if an animal CAN breed, it WILL breed, they don't choose NOT to breed, and disallowing them to breed while they have full capacity is definitely not fair, or natural.

sltr · 08-15-2008, 06:06 PM

rehab was tough too for Chaco!

after the doc took him off his pain pills, and i wasn't always there, he found the bottle to ease his pain and loneliness

sltr · 08-15-2008, 06:10 PM

so i got him off the bottle and to rehab his leg, he took up the mma.

he's not gracie level but he's got the hong kong fuuieeeeeeee!

sltr · 08-15-2008, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyMischief

Well I hope that if Chico develops more issues because he's not fixed you will do the same thing, and hopefully rethink your position on sterilization for future pets. Remember, there IS NO SUCH THING as abstainance in nature. It's bordering on cruel to have an animal that has perfectly normal instinctual urges that are not allowed to be consummated or satisfied. Not only can it cause possibly physical damage, it can cause behavioral issues as well. In nature, if an animal CAN breed, it WILL breed, they don't choose NOT to breed, and disallowing them to breed while they have full capacity is definitely not fair, or natural.

more pet snob blah blah.

fact is, i've provided another side to the argument which all the dog snobs FAIL to acknowledge.

sltr · 08-15-2008, 06:14 PM

and it's Chaco!

not Chico.

papill0n · 08-15-2008, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyMischief

I'm sorry but this is absolutely silly. Why would a male dog IF he could understand WANT to have uncontrollable urges that he can't satisfy. And if he DOES satisfy them, outside of having a breeding facility, you are contributing to MORE unwanted animals being brought into the world. How is THAT fair, to the dog, OR to the dogs that would be brought into the world with not enough homes. VERY irrational and irresponsible.

Anyone who's been around animals, not just dogs, but any animals that are domesticated or even not, know that hormones, sexual urges are not something they can help OR ignore. Be a responsible pet owner. SPAY OR NEUTER!

thank fuck for a bit of sense in this thread

papill0n · 08-15-2008, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sltr

more pet snob blah blah.

fact is, i've provided another side to the argument which all the dog snobs FAIL to acknowledge.

dog snobs?

You may not your pet out of your sight/house but a great many people do.If domestic pets aren't spayed the result is a huge amount of unwanted domestic animals. Lets not forget hundreds of thousands of dogs and cats are killed needlessly every year.

TTiger · 08-15-2008, 06:46 PM

love it:-)

TTiger · 08-15-2008, 06:51 PM

my eyes are almost in tears

sltr · 08-15-2008, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RageCash-Ben

dog snobs?

You may not your pet out of your sight/house but a great many people do.If domestic pets aren't spayed the result is a huge amount of unwanted domestic animals. Lets not forget hundreds of thousands of dogs and cats are killed needlessly every year.

little late on that *fact* there eh, at least in good ole u.s.a.

maybe that's the case down under but check out the current facts and don't buy the hype that you see in mainstream marketing.

again- it's laughable how many of the dog snobs feel the need to *educate* me on getting my dog's balls clipped.

TTiger · 08-15-2008, 07:58 PM

fuck man ive just finished translate this text in french im almost in tears that number 10 in unbelievably sad

Babaganoosh · 08-15-2008, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RageCash-Ben

dog snobs?

You may not your pet out of your sight/house but a great many people do.If domestic pets aren't spayed the result is a huge amount of unwanted domestic animals. Lets not forget hundreds of thousands of dogs and cats are killed needlessly every year.

Fortunately some cities are starting to pass ordinances requiring pet owners to spay or neuter their animals. It's a shame that such ordinances have to be passed but you can clearly see the mentality that made such ordinances necessary.

baddog · 08-15-2008, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *******

Even though I eat animals I think they should always be treated in a humane manner regardless if they are on a farm, wild, or living in your home.

Especially the ones you eat.

baddog · 08-15-2008, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sltr

great idea!

here's a pic of my little guy enjoying the sunset-

I never knew you were gay.

baddog · 08-15-2008, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyMischief

a male can mate anytime, with any female, anywhere. And if they can, THEY WILL.

Why do you think they call them dogs

CaseyCupcakes · 08-15-2008, 10:06 PM

that was REALLY great-- thank you!!!

papill0n · 08-16-2008, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sltr

little late on that *fact* there eh, at least in good ole u.s.a.

maybe that's the case down under but check out the current facts and don't buy the hype that you see in mainstream marketing.

again- it's laughable how many of the dog snobs feel the need to *educate* me on getting my dog's balls clipped.

Over 4 million healthy, adoptable animals were euthanized in the United States in 2007. Theres some current facts for you.

Babaganoosh · 08-16-2008, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RageCash-Ben

Over 4 million healthy, adoptable animals were euthanized in the United States in 2007. Theres some current facts for you.

Every person who doesn't spay or neuter thinks it's someone else who is part of the problem. That guy is no exception. I see that attitude all the time. "Oh no, not MY dog. MY dog is completely confined at all times and although he has testicles he has no interest in females in heat."

sltr · 08-16-2008, 06:20 AM

yo- sterilization nazi, quote my post where i said any thing of the sort.

i've never said it's someone else's problem.

i never said my dog is completely confined at all times. (he's not, we just got back from playing on the beachwalk, in fact)

i never said he has no interest in females in heat.

i've simply said i'm not getting my dog's balls clipped.

my dog my choice.

fact: all i've done is stated my decision on my dog. i never tried to get people to do the same to their dog or agree with me.

yet the sterilization radicals resort to calling me an idiot, etc., and saying i am uneducated,and making up shit that i said somewhere all whilst they continue to force their view on me.

not sure how calling me an idiot is going to make me run down to the sterilization center but that's how you chose to react to my view.

hypocritical how you portray yourselves to be full of goodness and love and *save the dogs* sentiment all while treating me like you have done in this thread.

it's people like y'all that sprung the phrase

"a dog is a man's best friend."

sltr · 08-16-2008, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RageCash-Ben

Over 4 million healthy, adoptable animals were euthanized in the United States in 2007. Theres some current facts for you.

yup, and the real fact that you fail to know is that # is proven to be a result of poor shelter management. period.

fact is research shows 90% of sheltered pets are "savable"

the city of san francisco proved that in the 90s.

Babaganoosh · 08-16-2008, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sltr

yup, and the real fact that you fail to know is that # is proven to be a result of poor shelter management. period.

fact is research shows 90% of sheltered pets are "savable"

the city of san francisco proved that in the 90s.

You are so full of shit it's not even funny. Show me the "research" you are quoting.

Here's what I found on San Francisco

http://www.spayusa.org/main_director...eys/graphs.asp
San Francisco has fundamentally reversed the pattern that prevails at many animal shelters, where healthy adoptable dogs and cats are routinely killed to make room for incoming animals.

San Francisco's success is based on several key elements:

* High-volume spay/neuter surgery to reduce pet overpopulation and cut shelter intake. The SFSPCA spends between $1 million and $2 million a year to subsidize surgery at its spay/neuter clinic, with free surgery for San Francisco's feral cats and animals adopted from the SFSPCA, and public fees that are about 60 percent below the city average. The clinic performs approximately 7,000 surgeries a year and has altered more than 100,000 dogs and cats (including more than 12,000 feral cats) since it began keeping records in 1988.

Tell me, what do you think happens when a shelter is full and more animals arrive? Locally there are infinitely more animals than there are people to take them. Go volunteer at your local shelter for a week and see what I am talking about. We're right at the end of kitten season too. Now would be a great time to see a bunch of adoptable cats euthanized. Poor shelter management...what a joke.

Babaganoosh · 08-16-2008, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sltr

hypocritical how you portray yourselves to be full of goodness and love and *save the dogs* sentiment all while treating me like you have done in this thread.

it's people like y'all that sprung the phrase

"a dog is a man's best friend."

Hypocritical? Where do I claim to love people? I dislike people. I really dislike stupid people. Stupid people ignore facts from reliable sources. Sound like anyone you know?

I do love dogs. Even the stupid ones.

sltr · 08-16-2008, 10:12 AM

i'm going to point out the obvious to you since you are unable to see it on your own.

not once have any of you asked the simple question-

why aren't you getting your dog's balls clipped?

you've just instantly attacked with name calling and assumptions

not once have any of you inquired as to my overall pet parenting skills.

(see the op's original post of the 10 pet commandments, spay/neuter is just 1 of them)
that's where the real problem with pets lies- overall parenting.

in fact, every one of the dog snobs comments have been to call me an idiot uneducated dolt lacking in common sense and not having the basic ability to care for my own pet and blaming others with a "it won't happen to me" attitude and how dare i not agree with you. although i never once stated any of that and i've proven in pictures and comments that those assumptions are wrong yet none of you can accept that either.

furthermore, everyone of you has been unable to acknowledge the simple fact that a valid decision/argument position must include the pros & cons, none of you have recognized ANY cons to the procedure- not one single negative.
anyone with a bit of high schooling and esp. anyone with some college knows that is required.

the worst part of every one of your assumptions is that you assume that because i don't accept the dog parenting advice on an ADULT MESSAGE BOARD that i'm a dolt/idiot/uneducated irresponsible dog owner.

Babaganoosh · 08-16-2008, 10:36 AM

I give up. Fortunately there are people like me to try to clean up the messes caused by people like you. It's upsetting how many of you there are.

I'm being 100% serious about volunteering at your local shelter. If you truly believe what you have said in this thread, I beg you to go help with the problems that people who share your attitude have caused.

sltr · 08-16-2008, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babaganoosh

I give up.

thank god.

you dog snobs are impossible to get off your high horse soap boxes.

Anna_Miller · 08-16-2008, 11:40 AM

I thought the spaying/neutering issue was really in response to over-population of abandoned animals. Many pet owners are irresponsible or just don't care to take care of their pets. Both my dogs are rescues.. one was abused and in the shelter for 2 months before I got her. The other was just let loose at the beginning of summer, and she was starving and dehydrated. The local shelter said they have problems with college students who get pets then can't take care of them so they just leave them behind. It's really sad.

bushwacker · 08-16-2008, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sltr

thank god.

you dog snobs are impossible to get off your high horse soap boxes.

YAWN......

LadyMischief · 08-16-2008, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sltr

i'm going to point out the obvious to you since you are unable to see it on your own.

not once have any of you asked the simple question-

why aren't you getting your dog's balls clipped?

you've just instantly attacked with name calling and assumptions

not once have any of you inquired as to my overall pet parenting skills.

(see the op's original post of the 10 pet commandments, spay/neuter is just 1 of them)
that's where the real problem with pets lies- overall parenting.

in fact, every one of the dog snobs comments have been to call me an idiot uneducated dolt lacking in common sense and not having the basic ability to care for my own pet and blaming others with a "it won't happen to me" attitude and how dare i not agree with you. although i never once stated any of that and i've proven in pictures and comments that those assumptions are wrong yet none of you can accept that either.

furthermore, everyone of you has been unable to acknowledge the simple fact that a valid decision/argument position must include the pros & cons, none of you have recognized ANY cons to the procedure- not one single negative.
anyone with a bit of high schooling and esp. anyone with some college knows that is required.

the worst part of every one of your assumptions is that you assume that because i don't accept the dog parenting advice on an ADULT MESSAGE BOARD that i'm a dolt/idiot/uneducated irresponsible dog owner.

I guess you skipped the post where I mentioned "possible issues with sterilization". There are "cons" with any type of surgery, possible things that could go wrong, but the same is true for dogs, horses, people, cats, birds, any LIVING creature that undergoes a proceedure. Fact of the matter is though, the chances of that are FAR less than the chances of an unaltered animal contributing to the overpopulation of animals. Your dog is unfixed and if he can he WILL breed. If you are ok sleeping at night knowing that you are possibly helping contribute to more healthy animals with no homes and no hope, you go on telling yourself whatever you need to. I'm not a "sterilization snob" by any means, I am simply a responsible animal owner (my cats are fixed too, I'm a TERRIBLE PERSON apparently) who refuses to allow more animals to be destroyed on my account. Most of my animals are rescues from shelters, animals who were on euthanization lists, or animals who would have simply been put down because there weren't enough people who could give them homes.

If nothing else, I wish you luck, and hope that your dog does not breed willy nilly around. And I also hope for your sake that your choice doesn't lead him to health problems in the future. I would never wish ill on an innocent animal, you can't explain to them why the pain of cancer they're dying from hurts, all they know is what they feel. People, it's people who can make excuses.

LadyMischief · 08-16-2008, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babaganoosh

I give up. Fortunately there are people like me to try to clean up the messes caused by people like you. It's upsetting how many of you there are.

I'm being 100% serious about volunteering at your local shelter. If you truly believe what you have said in this thread, I beg you to go help with the problems that people who share your attitude have caused.

So true. I spent some time helping out in a shelter when I was young, it was a sobering experience. My youngest cat was ON the list for euthanization when she was found by a group that takes the euthanization lists and takes adoptable animals, fixes them for free via volunteer vets, and finds them good RESPONSIBLE owners. She was a week away from the axe when they got her, and she is a joy and a pleasure to have, nothing wrong with her at all. To think she would have been dead by now simply because someone didn't have the money, bother, or want to have their pet fixed, and there was no room for more. She was born in the shelter, the mother cat was abandoned a week before she had the kittens because the owners couldn't afford kittens. It's played out the same way every day hundreds and thousands of animals abandoned or born with no home and no hope. Some people prefer to live in the bubbles of what makes them feel good, and they don't look or care outside of it.

08-15-2008, 11:49 AM	#51
theharvman Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 1,366	Great post I love my dog __________________ Email:[email protected] Site: http://TheScreamingO.com Program: http://http://www.idevaffiliate.com Skype: theharvman ICQ: 150092593

08-15-2008, 01:05 PM	#56
LadyMischief Orgasms N Such! Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oakville, Ontario Posts: 18,135	A female dog can have puppies a few times a year, a male can mate anytime, with any female, anywhere. And if they can, THEY WILL. __________________ ICQ 3522039 Content Manager - orgasm.com [email protected]

08-15-2008, 01:36 PM	#58
sltr Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3,191	fyi, for the elitists. it's clearly not a cut&dry issue. yet, the name calling and uneducated comments are from that side. -- Twenty years and more ago, pet sterilization was hailed as the only way to keep unwanted litters from clogging shelters and ultimately dying there to make room for even more unwanted litters. In the past decade the tide has turned: shelters have instituted their own sterilization policies and animal welfare advocates have conducted highly successful campaigns to decrease the number of unplanned and unwanted litters. As a result of rescue and shelter sterilization policies, education about the practical aspects of the surgery, and an aggressive campaign by responsible breeders, veterinarians, and welfare groups, about 75 percent of dogs have been spayed or castrated and canine populations in shelters have dropped. However, this decrease is not enough for radical groups. research indicates that the health benefits of sterilization may be offset by the drawbacks and that owners should be aware of potential problems that can occur as a direct result of the surgery. Neutering a dog reduces production of testosterone but does not eliminate this hormone. Thus a neutered dog, especially if he has a dominant character, may also retain his desire to roam and an assertive or even aggressive personality. Owners who depend on neutering to resolve behavior problems run a high risk of being disappointed unless they also train the pet to have good manners at home and in public. Any surgery has drawbacks. Dogs can react badly to anesthesia in spite of precautions or can experience complications during recovery. Some dogs react negatively to the suture material used, and incisions do not heal properly. Concurrent with the increase in laws and regulations regarding pet sterilization, research since 1990 has shown that spay and neuter surgeries may have specific drawbacks as well as benefits. Dogs neutered before puberty tend to have longer legs, flatter chests, and narrower skulls that intact dogs of their breeds because the hormones that regulate sexual activity also interact with hormones that guide growth of muscles, bones, and tendons. These physical differences can place more stress on joints and can cause problems for active dogs, especially those in training for agility and those that work in physically stressful jobs. Additional drawbacks specific to spay surgery include increased incidence of bladder incontinence, triple the frequency of thyroid disease, and higher risk of some cancers, joint problems, and obesity and adverse reactions to vaccinations. POINTS AGAINST STERILIZATION 1. Dogs may gain weight after being altered. It is true that some animals may tend to gain weight after they are sterilized (Fettman 1997, Root 1995). The removal of the sex hormones may tend to slow an animal's metabolism somewhat (Flynn 1996), although some studies have found no differences in weight between intact and sterilized animals (Salmeri 1991a). However, many dogs are altered just as they are reaching maturity. At this time in their lives, even dogs who are NOT altered will be gaining weight and slowing down a bit, so any change you see in your pet may not have anything to do with being sterilized. If you DO notice a weight gain after your dog is altered, simply decrease the amount of food you are feeding and increase the exercise your dog gets every day. 2. Altered dogs may be taller than intact dogs. It is true that dogs who are sterilized before they have reached full maturity may be slightly taller than they would be if they had been left intact. Sex hormones influence the end of bone growth after puberty. Since the sex hormones never arrive in dogs which are altered before maturity, the bones tend to continue growing for longer than they would in the intact dog. However, this difference is very slight overall -- and the dogs being altered are NOT show dogs, so a little extra height is of little significance. Also, there does not appear to be any difference in size between puppies sterilized very early (6-10 weeks) and those altered later (7 months) (Crenshaw 1995, Lieberman 1987). 3. Sterilized dogs may become incontinent. Some altered dogs may develop a problem with controlling their urine output. This is especially likely in females, but may also happen in males (Aaron 1996, Arnold 1997a). It is thought that this problem arises because the loss of sex hormones affects the strength of the urinary sphincter muscle (Gregory 1994). One researcher has claimed that incontinence may occur in as many as 20% of all spayed dogs (Arnold 1997a), but other vets believe this rate is much lower (Thrusfield 1993). Fortunately, the problem may be as minor as a few drops here and there, and it is usually easy to control with inexpensive drugs such as phenylpropanolamine (Arnold 1997b, Heughebaert 1988). Sometimes estrogen replacement may be necessary. Incontinence problems may last for the rest of the dog's life. However, incontinence may also disappear after a few months or a few years (Heughebaert 1988, Arnold 1989). Also, keep in mind that older dogs will sometimes develop incontinence even if they are left intact, so incontinence is not always related to sterilization. 4. Sterilized dogs are more likely to have problems with hypothyroidism. A few dogs, especially bitches, may be more likely to have problems with decreased thyroid function after they are altered (Panciera 1994). Fortunately, thyroid problems are easy to treat with inexpensive thyroid supplements. Also, some intact dogs will also experience hypothyroidism, so most cases of hypothyroidism are not actually due to being sterilized. 5. Bitches who are aggressive before being spayed may become more aggressive after being spayed. This appears to be a valid concern for owners of aggressive bitches (O'Farrell 1990). However, it's an easy problem to avoid. If you have an intact bitch who is already aggressive, think seriously about letting her remain intact. If your intact bitch is NOT aggressive, spaying her is not likely to MAKE her aggressive. 6. Sterilization, especially spaying, is an invasive surgical procedure. There are risks involved with any surgery, both from the surgery itself and from the anesthetic agent. However, the rate of complications is very low, and serious complications are especially rare. Especially with newer anesthetic agents like isofluorane and newer suture materials, there are rarely any serious problems. Significant complications of sterilization surgeries occur in roughly only 1-4% of surgeries (Pollari 1995, 1996). Also, the surgical procedure actually appears to be safer when performed in younger puppies, with less serious complications occurring overall in young puppies than in puppies altered at later ages (Fagella 1994). 7. Sterilization is expensive. Surgical costs may be as low as $25 or as high as $300, depending on the size and age of the dog, whether the dog is male or female, and the area of the country in which you live. There are low cost spay/neuter clinics in many areas these days for people who can't otherwise afford the procedures. And in some areas you will actually SAVE money by sterilizing your dog, if licensing fees are lower for altered pets. 8. The size of the external genitals may be smaller in dogs who are sterilized before puberty. The penis of the male and the vagina of the female may be somewhat smaller in dogs who have been altered before puberty (Salmeri 1991a, 1991b). However, it is usually of little functional consequence to the dog. In a breed which is predisposed to urinary tract blockage, such as male dalmatians, this may be a problem; but in most breeds this is not likely to cause any medical complications. Very occasionally, bitches who were altered at very young ages may develop some skin irritation in the vulvar region (Jagoe 1988), but this also is not a common occurrence. Last edited by sltr; 08-15-2008 at 01:38 PM..

08-15-2008, 02:00 PM	#59
sniperwolf Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 17,743	sweeeet! I'll have that framed! __________________ ~Accepting design works~

08-15-2008, 05:28 PM	#66
Babaganoosh ♥♥♥ Likes Hugs ♥♥♥ Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: /home Posts: 15,841	Cute little dog. It's a shame his owner is a fucking dolt. __________________ I like pie.

08-15-2008, 11:49 AM	#52
TurboAngel H.B.I.C. Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: NC Posts: 30,122	That was nice, I have gotten all my pets fixed as I do feel it's the right thing to do.

08-15-2008, 05:27 PM	#64
sltr Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3,191	yah, this little guy's got a tough life eh. i guess i do too, not being able to get my free neutering down at the wherever they do that when ya get the rabies shots.

08-15-2008, 05:47 PM	#67
notoldschool Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 5,687	great list. __________________ No doubt one may quote history to support any cause, as the devil quotes scripture. -- Learned Hand http://www.bjpenn.com

08-15-2008, 06:01 PM	#71
sltr Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3,191	it wasn't always good times for my little Chaco! here he is after getting orthopedic surgery on his leg, the surgeon put a pin in his knee after he broke it. obviously, since i am so destitute and unable to provide Chaco! with even the most basic of care(your observation) the surgery was performed free of charges by a good samaratan vet.

08-15-2008, 06:05 PM	#72
LadyMischief Orgasms N Such! Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oakville, Ontario Posts: 18,135	Well I hope that if Chico develops more issues because he's not fixed you will do the same thing, and hopefully rethink your position on sterilization for future pets. Remember, there IS NO SUCH THING as abstainance in nature. It's bordering on cruel to have an animal that has perfectly normal instinctual urges that are not allowed to be consummated or satisfied. Not only can it cause possibly physical damage, it can cause behavioral issues as well. In nature, if an animal CAN breed, it WILL breed, they don't choose NOT to breed, and disallowing them to breed while they have full capacity is definitely not fair, or natural. __________________ ICQ 3522039 Content Manager - orgasm.com [email protected]

08-15-2008, 06:06 PM	#73
sltr Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3,191	rehab was tough too for Chaco! after the doc took him off his pain pills, and i wasn't always there, he found the bottle to ease his pain and loneliness

08-15-2008, 06:10 PM	#74
sltr Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3,191	so i got him off the bottle and to rehab his leg, he took up the mma. he's not gracie level but he's got the hong kong fuuieeeeeeee!

08-15-2008, 06:14 PM	#76
sltr Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3,191	and it's Chaco! not Chico.

08-15-2008, 06:46 PM	#79
TTiger Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: quebec, canada Posts: 3,030	love it:-) __________________

08-15-2008, 06:51 PM	#80
TTiger Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: quebec, canada Posts: 3,030	my eyes are almost in tears __________________

08-15-2008, 07:58 PM	#82
TTiger Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: quebec, canada Posts: 3,030	fuck man ive just finished translate this text in french im almost in tears that number 10 in unbelievably sad __________________

08-15-2008, 10:06 PM	#87
CaseyCupcakes Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 597	that was REALLY great-- thank you!!! __________________ Casey O'Connell ICQ: 440-233-653

08-16-2008, 06:20 AM	#90
sltr Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3,191	yo- sterilization nazi, quote my post where i said any thing of the sort. i've never said it's someone else's problem. i never said my dog is completely confined at all times. (he's not, we just got back from playing on the beachwalk, in fact) i never said he has no interest in females in heat. i've simply said i'm not getting my dog's balls clipped. my dog my choice. fact: all i've done is stated my decision on my dog. i never tried to get people to do the same to their dog or agree with me. yet the sterilization radicals resort to calling me an idiot, etc., and saying i am uneducated,and making up shit that i said somewhere all whilst they continue to force their view on me. not sure how calling me an idiot is going to make me run down to the sterilization center but that's how you chose to react to my view. hypocritical how you portray yourselves to be full of goodness and love and save the dogs sentiment all while treating me like you have done in this thread. it's people like y'all that sprung the phrase "a dog is a man's best friend." Last edited by sltr; 08-16-2008 at 06:23 AM..

08-16-2008, 10:12 AM	#94
sltr Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3,191	i'm going to point out the obvious to you since you are unable to see it on your own. not once have any of you asked the simple question- why aren't you getting your dog's balls clipped? you've just instantly attacked with name calling and assumptions not once have any of you inquired as to my overall pet parenting skills. (see the op's original post of the 10 pet commandments, spay/neuter is just 1 of them) that's where the real problem with pets lies- overall parenting. in fact, every one of the dog snobs comments have been to call me an idiot uneducated dolt lacking in common sense and not having the basic ability to care for my own pet and blaming others with a "it won't happen to me" attitude and how dare i not agree with you. although i never once stated any of that and i've proven in pictures and comments that those assumptions are wrong yet none of you can accept that either. furthermore, everyone of you has been unable to acknowledge the simple fact that a valid decision/argument position must include the pros & cons, none of you have recognized ANY cons to the procedure- not one single negative. anyone with a bit of high schooling and esp. anyone with some college knows that is required. the worst part of every one of your assumptions is that you assume that because i don't accept the dog parenting advice on an ADULT MESSAGE BOARD that i'm a dolt/idiot/uneducated irresponsible dog owner. Last edited by sltr; 08-16-2008 at 10:14 AM..

08-16-2008, 10:36 AM	#95
Babaganoosh ♥♥♥ Likes Hugs ♥♥♥ Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: /home Posts: 15,841	I give up. Fortunately there are people like me to try to clean up the messes caused by people like you. It's upsetting how many of you there are. I'm being 100% serious about volunteering at your local shelter. If you truly believe what you have said in this thread, I beg you to go help with the problems that people who share your attitude have caused. __________________ I like pie.

08-16-2008, 11:40 AM	#97
Anna_Miller Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: 4RealCash.com Posts: 697	I thought the spaying/neutering issue was really in response to over-population of abandoned animals. Many pet owners are irresponsible or just don't care to take care of their pets. Both my dogs are rescues.. one was abused and in the shelter for 2 months before I got her. The other was just let loose at the beginning of summer, and she was starving and dehydrated. The local shelter said they have problems with college students who get pets then can't take care of them so they just leave them behind. It's really sad. __________________ My Official Website Anna at 4RealCash dot com icq 610460777