"must have guns, go to war, believe in god" rationale. Please explain

[StuartD]

I am a little lost on this one... I mean, I get that religious types are driven to war a lot, they aren't prejuidiced... they just hate anyone not in their group.

But still, I don't quite get how people can be so god fearing, so afraid of sinning and going to hell.... but then rush out to buy as many guns as they can and push for more war.

Here we have the other "wing" of thinkers who have no fear of god's wrath, no guilt of what could come... total free thinking, do as you please sinners that, for what ever reason, doesn't want guns around... doesn't want war... doesn't want to go killing as many other people as they can.

Murder is a big no no in each interpretation of the commandments, and yet it seems to be encouraged so much so long as the person you're murdering is of some other faith....
or trespassing.

I just don't get it. Can someone explain it?

[GigoloShawn]

Originally Posted by StuartD

I just don't get it. Can someone explain it?

You flunked History, didn't you?

Every war where one is offered to convert or die is done in the name of religion, because that makes a very good (if thin) veil for conquering. See also: The Crusades.

We haven't had one of those in quite awhile, though. officially. To be blunt: If you can get knowledge ahead of time of what people believe, or you can brainwash them into believing, they'll do anything for "the better good", and if not, how about, oh.. 70 virgins. See also: 9/11.

[StuartD]

Originally Posted by StuartD

I get that religious types are driven to war a lot, they aren't prejuidiced... they just hate anyone not in their group.

Originally Posted by GigoloShawn

You flunked History, didn't you?

No.
45678

[GigoloShawn]

Originally Posted by StuartD

No.
45678

Religion does not equate xenophobe, but it doesn't hurt.

[LadyMischief]

Don't forget, Religion has been one of the primary causes of war and genocide throughout the entire history of mankind.

[IllTestYourGirls]

Men bent on control and conquest will use any excuse to do so. Religion is just a vehicle to get there. Think of it as a soccer riot.

[Deputy Chief Command]

Originally Posted by IllTestYourGirls

Men bent on control and conquest will use any excuse to do so. Religion is just a vehicle to get there. Think of it as a soccer riot.

we have a winner!

[sltr]

you are trying to apply rationale to something that is inheritently irrational, won't work.

[Odin]

Originally Posted by LadyMischief

Don't forget, Religion has been one of the primary causes of war and genocide throughout the entire history of mankind.

True, but that statement is so overused and exaggerated it is not even funny. For one, even religion has been a tool for convincing the masses to go to war at times, it often has not been the "primary cause". Secondly a HELL of a lot more wars and death have occurred at the hands of atheists, or the non-religious than the religious. WWII come to mind? WWI? The USSR, Vietnam? Korea? Just about any number of the thousands upon thousands of wars between tribes and empires throughout human history. Religion has been just a tiny catalyst in it all.

[StuartD]

Originally Posted by sltr

you are trying to apply rationale to something that is inheritently irrational, won't work.

I think you're right. Thou shalt not kill seems to be a guideline, not a rule.... but "thou shalt worship no other but me" is something worth killing others over.

Perhaps it's because these people know how likely it is that they'll get shot by some other religious nut.... and so they turn to god to pray that they can fire first??

I don't know. I think you got it. There's just no way I'm going to rationalize this one out.

[notoldschool]

Originally Posted by StuartD

I am a little lost on this one... I mean, I get that religious types are driven to war a lot, they aren't prejuidiced... they just hate anyone not in their group.

But still, I don't quite get how people can be so god fearing, so afraid of sinning and going to hell.... but then rush out to buy as many guns as they can and push for more war.

Here we have the other "wing" of thinkers who have no fear of god's wrath, no guilt of what could come... total free thinking, do as you please sinners that, for what ever reason, doesn't want guns around... doesn't want war... doesn't want to go killing as many other people as they can.

Murder is a big no no in each interpretation of the commandments, and yet it seems to be encouraged so much so long as the person you're murdering is of some other faith....
or trespassing.

I just don't get it. Can someone explain it?

You speak in to clear of terms for the sheep to handle in their pee brains. I completly agree with you and have seen how retarded it is for these fake military preists suggesting that its Gods will. I also find it funny that a TON of our own US Soldiers are MUSLIM. In Bosnia and Panama there were MUSLIM services on EVERY Camp I was stationed at. Its such a fucked up world and Religion is the main reason.

[12clicks]

before you run too far down the idiot track, please tell us which war the US started over religion.


Thanks for playing

[notoldschool]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

before you run too far down the idiot track, please tell us which war the US started over religion.


Thanks for playing

Iraq good enough for you allmighty program owner?

[12clicks]

Originally Posted by notoldschool

Iraq good enough for you allmighty program owner?

Hahahaha

[uno]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

Hahahaha

Hey man, god told GWB to do it.

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by StuartD

I am a little lost on this one... I mean, I get that religious types are driven to war a lot, they aren't prejuidiced... they just hate anyone not in their group.

But still, I don't quite get how people can be so god fearing, so afraid of sinning and going to hell.... but then rush out to buy as many guns as they can and push for more war.

Here we have the other "wing" of thinkers who have no fear of god's wrath, no guilt of what could come... total free thinking, do as you please sinners that, for what ever reason, doesn't want guns around... doesn't want war... doesn't want to go killing as many other people as they can.

Murder is a big no no in each interpretation of the commandments, and yet it seems to be encouraged so much so long as the person you're murdering is of some other faith....
or trespassing.

I just don't get it. Can someone explain it?

pretty simple: basic human instinct for 'tribe' survival. -bmb

[LadyMischief]

Originally Posted by Chief

True, but that statement is so overused and exaggerated it is not even funny. For one, even religion has been a tool for convincing the masses to go to war at times, it often has not been the "primary cause". Secondly a HELL of a lot more wars and death have occurred at the hands of atheists, or the non-religious than the religious. WWII come to mind? WWI? The USSR, Vietnam? Korea? Just about any number of the thousands upon thousands of wars between tribes and empires throughout human history. Religion has been just a tiny catalyst in it all.

Maybe take a trek through history again and see how many conflicts were spurred from or spurned on by religious fervor. Hell, even the terrorist acts of today are "religiously motivated". Have you forgotten the crusades, the inquisition, many of the mass genocides in various countries were performed by people of conflicting religions. Ireland is an ongoing religious war.... even the US of A is happy to admit that "God told them to do it". And you can't tell me that in EVERY war, each side wasn't praying to their god that they would win. Religion was hardly a tiny catalyst in any way, and if you do your background research you will find that religious upheavals and religio-political jockeying have been at the roots of many conflicts that were claimed to have started for other reasons.

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by StuartD

I think you're right. Thou shalt not kill seems to be a guideline, not a rule.... but "thou shalt worship no other but me" is something worth killing others over.

Perhaps it's because these people know how likely it is that they'll get shot by some other religious nut.... and so they turn to god to pray that they can fire first??

I don't know. I think you got it. There's just no way I'm going to rationalize this one out.

actually my understanding of the translation is 'thou shall not murder' which is completely different than 'thou shall not kill' -bmb

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by LadyMischief

Maybe take a trek through history again and see how many conflicts were spurred from or spurned on by religious fervor. Hell, even the terrorist acts of today are "religiously motivated". Have you forgotten the crusades, the inquisition, many of the mass genocides in various countries were performed by people of conflicting religions. Ireland is an ongoing religious war.... even the US of A is happy to admit that "God told them to do it". And you can't tell me that in EVERY war, each side wasn't praying to their god that they would win. Religion was hardly a tiny catalyst in any way, and if you do your background research you will find that religious upheavals and religio-political jockeying have been at the roots of many conflicts that were claimed to have started for other reasons.

religion is more the front than the cause.... the real issue is 'commerce'

[LadyMischief]

Perhaps the most admirable part of the response to the conflict that began on Sept. 11 has been a general reluctance to call it a religious war. Officials and commentators have rightly stressed that this is not a battle between the Muslim world and the West, that the murderers are not representative of Islam. President Bush went to the Islamic Center in Washington to reinforce the point. At prayer meetings across the United States and throughout the world, Muslim leaders have been included alongside Christians, Jews and Buddhists.


Read the rest of the article, you might realize just what a part religion plays in the Iraq conflict and others:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...C1A9679C8B 63

Generals in the US Army have cast the war in religious terms themselves:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1016-01.htm

As much as anyone may say that this is NOT a religious conflict, people who are public and international representatives of the war efforts have cast it in that light, and like it or not, have turned it into one. Anyone who ways "we should take out those damn muslims"..... well if extremist groups had religious beliefs that didn't involve killing others, would anyone even care? Religion is at the heart of it, and the ultra-religious right are the captains in charge of the ship of war.

Religion even played a part in the US Civil war, and what most people don't realize is that it played a larger part than is commonly acknowledged.
"According to J. William Jones, Confederate Chaplain and author of one of the best documentaries of the Great Revival, virtually every Confederate brigade was affected--and approximately ten percent of the soldiers in the Army of Northern Virginia accepted Christ. Night after night troops participated in prayer meetings, worshipped, and listened to ministers proclaim the good news. Virtually every gathering ended with soldiers coming forward to accept Christ or receive prayer. When a pond or river was nearby, the soldiers would frequently step forward for baptisms--regardless of how cold the weather was. "
http://www.greatamericanhistory.net/revival.htm

Men in war turn to god. Men in god turn to war. The two seem to happily go hand in hand.

[Deputy Chief Command]

some good food for thoughts there LadyMischief ...


a Lady who is a Miss be the Chief ? lolz . ;

seriously though .. religion in general is a good thing . . interpretation is the problem


all over the world . .people are fighting ? for what! ?

everybody is killing everybody

some people say they believe in Jesus . . though .. they will kill other people who also believe in Jesus . . just cause they have a different interpretation .. . ; same with muslims . . they all follow the teachings of the prophet Muhammed .. but . . in the end . . some have a different interpretation of the words he has written down then others . .and that makes people want to murder .. .

someone needs to stop this madness .. God himself maybe ?


I cant imagine if God exists he actually cares about what you do everyday or who you pray too . . I would think he cares about you being a good person and being there for your loved ones .. not killing other people because they dissagree with you ..

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by Deputy Chief Command

all over the world . .people are fighting ? for what! ?

as yaser arafat once said: my imaginary friend is bigger than your imaginary freind

[Deputy Chief Command]

Originally Posted by bm bradley

as yaser arafat once said: my imaginary friend is bigger than your imaginary freind

[Fletch XXX]

without reading all this:

its simple - some of choose books over guns.

SOme of us prove we have knowledge, so we go to college.

Some of us have no skills other than shooting something, so we send those to die, so the rest of us can get college money without risking our life.

we need more meat shields hurry up and sign up boys.

[- Jesus Christ -]

[Odin]

Originally Posted by LadyMischief

Maybe take a trek through history again and see how many conflicts were spurred from or spurned on by religious fervor. Hell, even the terrorist acts of today are "religiously motivated". Have you forgotten the crusades, the inquisition, many of the mass genocides in various countries were performed by people of conflicting religions. Ireland is an ongoing religious war.... even the US of A is happy to admit that "God told them to do it". And you can't tell me that in EVERY war, each side wasn't praying to their god that they would win. Religion was hardly a tiny catalyst in any way, and if you do your background research you will find that religious upheavals and religio-political jockeying have been at the roots of many conflicts that were claimed to have started for other reasons.

And this is the problem with you anti-religious crazies. I've no problem with honestly dissecting religion, and appropriating blame where it is due (and there absolute is some, a fair amount even), but you carry on as if atheism is the answer to the worlds problems, or some enlightened movement incapable of ignorance in comparison to theism. I mean the "Gold told them to do it" bit, it's just a massive stretch, and if you believe it was the justification for going to war even for a second you are pretty naive. Most wars, past and particularly present are ethnic conflicts, not religious, and whilst religion plays a role in a number of other conflicts and in fact even constituting what is an ethnicity on occasions (take for example the internal conflicts going on inside Iraq), it doesn't necessarily warrant the wrap it gets.

The real problem I have though, is that when I look at developing (in fact even some developed) regions of the world that are devoid of religion I actually see something a hell of a lot less promising than what the atheists try to convince you would exist. Go to South America (and yes I know there are a lot of religious people there), or Africa and see how long you last with a decent watch on your arm, but I can tell you this, I've been to Lebanon, Syria and a whole host of other religious and poor nations and no one would touch you. Sure they have their downfalls, but to write off a moral order completely is going too far. And the point I make about non-religious based wars was to point out that you can't write off our present secular society wholesale because of them either. Look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history and consider to yourself why so few are religious based. I think it is because at least religion has some rules, atheists don't.

I mean how many members of MS-13, or the bloods and the crips do you really think go to Church and believe it, and try to obey it? How many people putting knifes into others or throwing fists at each other in drunken nights out in Britain (or anywhere in the Western world) do you really think are trying to be devout and decent human beings? What I see is a world in which we are collapsing one order (religion) and placing it by another (money, looks, materialism), and claiming that we are enlightened. Sure, some are, no doubt you are still a decent human being and intelligent, but the problem with this is that religion is something that holds together the masses and truth be told it was actually a hell of a lot more inclusive and stable than the order we've replace it. I think we need discussion about it though, not just assumptions.

[- Jesus Christ -]

Atheism is based on belief just as much as any religion.

The very concept of "god" has never clearly been established so how can you confirm or deny its existence?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism

[WarChild]

Originally Posted by StuartD

I just don't get it.

"Well that's a switch!"

[BradM]

The way you laid it out doesn't make sense. The way religious people rationalize everything in their brain is very different.

If you are around Christians (far right wing) for awhile you realize this. Fear, Hypocrisy and idiocy run almost everything they do.

It's not as cut and dry as you proposed.

[Houdini]

nevermind.

[notoldschool]

Originally Posted by Chief

And this is the problem with you anti-religious crazies.

Mind of a religous freak...

people who believe in PROVEN Science = Crazy

people who beleive in an invisible man who hears their whispers and put one of every animal on a boat = Sane

[DaddyHalbucks]

[Odin]

Originally Posted by notoldschool

Mind of a religous freak...

people who believe in PROVEN Science = Crazy

people who beleive in an invisible man who hears their whispers and put one of every animal on a boat = Sane

notoldschool you actually crack me up, you remind me of when I was 18, and just started to learn a few things about the world but assumed I knew a lot more than I did. I'm not religious at all for one, and I believe in proven science, and even some theoretical science (i.e. evolution - which is not proven). But no where does science give us a definitive answer to the meaning of life, the after-life or lack there of, the beginning of the Universe beyond the big bang (how did something initiate from nothing), etc etc. And judging by your posts, I am willing to bet you know about as much about evolution or any number of scientific facts of theories you believe in as a regular "Christian" truly knows about the Bible (fuck all), so I wouldn't get on your high horse assuming they are the only naive ones for believing something they don't even understand.

[mrkris]

Religion to the masses is a way of living, a belief.
Religion to the leaders is a means of control.

Brainwashing++

[tiger]

Trying to apply logic won't help you understand.

[baddog]

Originally Posted by StuartD

But still, I don't quite get how people can be so god fearing, so afraid of sinning and going to hell.... but then rush out to buy as many guns as they can and push for more war.

I have to admit that I am a little surprised that you feel Americans buy guns so they can run out and kill someone.

[baddog]

Originally Posted by notoldschool

Iraq good enough for you allmighty program owner?

Whoa . . . the US got involved in Iraq because of religion? Have you tapped out all your other lame answers?

[MrMaxwell]

Originally Posted by Fletch XXX

without reading all this:

its simple - some of choose books over guns.

SOme of us prove we have knowledge, so we go to college.

Some of us have no skills other than shooting something, so we send those to die, so the rest of us can get college money without risking our life.

we need more meat shields hurry up and sign up boys.

Come throw a book at me :D

College isn't where you go to prove your own knowledge.
College is where one goes to attain knowledge the system wants us to have.

Shooting something is the only skill our soldiers posess? Courage, discipline, balls, battle strategy, survival skills and more is what our soldiers have.



What happens when your white tie and production free dollars won't buy your meals and shelter any more? Guys like you will end up throwing books and spouting textbook bullshit as you go to your death if you don't find some wisdom before it is too late.

[StuartD]

Originally Posted by baddog

I have to admit that I am a little surprised that you feel Americans buy guns so they can run out and kill someone.

You and 12click seem to be too defensive to actually understand the point, you'd rather just go looking for the quickest argument.

I didn't say anywhere in my post that the US started any wars based on religion, nor did I say that they buy a gun solely to kill someone.

They are all separate points, and all separate observations.
How can religious nuts, who are so afraid of God, be so much in favour of having guns. So much in favour of war. So much in favour of people being killed.

I could ask the same question of bbq'ers. Why, if they love the taste of meat so much, do they have to put on spices. Why do they have to drink beers? Why do they have to invite people over to share it all so badly?

Now, I didn't say that bbq'ers bought beers so they can run out and share them with someone, did I?

[notoldschool]

Originally Posted by Chief

notoldschool you actually crack me up, you remind me of when I was 18, and just started to learn a few things about the world but assumed I knew a lot more than I did. I'm not religious at all for one, and I believe in proven science, and even some theoretical science (i.e. evolution - which is not proven). But no where does science give us a definitive answer to the meaning of life, the after-life or lack there of, the beginning of the Universe beyond the big bang (how did something initiate from nothing), etc etc. And judging by your posts, I am willing to bet you know about as much about evolution or any number of scientific facts of theories you believe in as a regular "Christian" truly knows about the Bible (fuck all), so I wouldn't get on your high horse assuming they are the only naive ones for believing something they don't even understand.

There is nothing to understand about religion other than a handfull of guys that lived well before ANY knowledge of how the world works wrote sections of a book that make NO sense and pawned it off as some higher being word. There is 0 fact to back up anything in the bible. The men who wrote it would have though a light bulb was the devils work. The book was written by uneducted men period. ANY college graduate has more kwoledge of the world and its makings than ANY of the men who pitched in on the magic book so many weak minded people follow. I dont claim to know how the world began exactly but to make such flawed claims as religion has and still be viable in these day and ages just shows how unintelligent the masses are.

[pornguy]

Originally Posted by mrkris

Religion to the masses is a way of living, a belief.
Religion to the leaders is a means of control.

Brainwashing++

" " " " " " " "

[J. Falcon]

Originally Posted by baddog

Whoa . . . the US got involved in Iraq because of religion? Have you tapped out all your other lame answers?

Let's start by saying that nobody knows why the US got involved in Iraq. If you think you know, I would love to hear the answer. But you can't deny the FACT that Bush did publicly admit that God told him to invade. So try to make some sense of that.

[notoldschool]

Originally Posted by J. Falcon

Let's start by saying that nobody knows why the US got involved in Iraq. If you think you know, I would love to hear the answer. But you can't deny the FACT that Bush did publicly admit that God told him to invade. So try to make some sense of that.

Dont bother with the stubborn old man. I have plenty of experience with his kind. Once you reach that age its impossible to see clearly.

[J. Falcon]

Originally Posted by J. Falcon

Let's start by saying that nobody knows why the US got involved in Iraq. If you think you know, I would love to hear the answer. But you can't deny the FACT that Bush did publicly admit that God told him to invade. So try to make some sense of that.

And baddog, try to respond without using one of your witty one-line remarks, which is pretty much all you know how to do.

[SilentKnight]

Obviously wars are started for a variety of reasons - granted, religion being among the biggest motivations.

Greed, power, oil...misguided liberation.

Sometimes politicians start wars thinking it'll help kickstart their domestic economy - or to increase their own treasure chest (*cough* - Haliburton - *cough*).

I firmly believe the general public aren't usually privvy to the genuine reasons war is started by one faction or another. The real motivators are tucked behind closed doors and meet in secret 'societies'.

We're spoon-fed the diversionary reasons through media manipulation to misdirect and make us think the war is somehow justified.

GWB woke up one morning and thanked Gawd some religious fanatics brought down the WTC so he could justify marching in to Iraq and:

a) take out the sonofabitch that "tried to kill my Daddy".
b) make Haliburton (and affiliated cronies) an even richer corporation.
c) explore the possibilities of controling a greater supply of middleast oil reserves.

And of course, GWB spun it to the media he was "liberating Iraq from a fanatical tyrant with 'weapons of mass destruction' - galore."

Trouble is...there was no WMDs to be found - and people began questioning why he chose to "liberate" Iraq when there were far worse oppressed countries that badly needed democratic liberation.

[DaddyHalbucks]

Now about your "go to war" part...

Occasionally it is necessary to go to war against dictators and aggressors, for international law enforcement, for similar reasons to why a city needs a police force. A city without police wouldn't be a very nice place to live, would it? Well, it's the same on the international stage --a world that tolerates dictators and aggressors isn't nice either.

Should the US be the policeman of the world?

Ideally, no. That should be the job of the UN. But, if the UN is taken over by a bunch of spineless jellyfish and collaborators, and years of diplomacy fails, there may not be much of an alternative..

[J. Falcon]

Originally Posted by DaddyHalbucks

Now about your "go to war" part...

Occasionally it is necessary to go to war against dictators and aggressors, for international law enforcement, for similar reasons to why a city needs a police force. A city without police wouldn't be a very nice place to live, would it? Well, it's the same on the international stage --a world that tolerates dictators and aggressors isn't nice either.

Should the US be the policeman of the world?

Ideally, no. That should be the job of the UN. But, if the UN is taken over by a bunch of spineless jellyfish and collaborators, and years of diplomacy fails, there may not be much of an alternative..

You have your head stuck so far up your ass that your lips, nose, ears and eyes are all covered in shit. Ignorant dumb fuck.

[StuartD]

Originally Posted by DaddyHalbucks

Now about your "go to war" part...

Occasionally it is necessary to go to war against dictators and aggressors, for international law enforcement, for similar reasons to why a city needs a police force. A city without police wouldn't be a very nice place to live, would it? Well, it's the same on the international stage --a world that tolerates dictators and aggressors isn't nice either.

Should the US be the policeman of the world?

Ideally, no. That should be the job of the UN. But, if the UN is taken over by a bunch of spineless jellyfish and collaborators, and years of diplomacy fails, there may not be much of an alternative..

Well, you make a solid argument. Very thoughtful.

I have just 2 questions.

1. What does this have to do with their religion?
2. Since when does a policeman invade a nation based on fabricated proof with the intent on hanging it's leader until dead?

[2012]

ever read Lord Of the Flies ?

[Sly]

Originally Posted by notoldschool

Iraq good enough for you allmighty program owner?

I thought it was about the oil... that we didn't get.

Now it's about religion... that we didn't convert?

Next week it will be about getting a fresh supply of sand to restock our deserts.