Clips4sale selling stolen clips?

[Nautilus]

After checking this thread:
http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showthread.php?t=851005

I decided to have a look at what clip4sale is today (haven't checked it in awhile), and guess what - our stuff is in every second fucking "store"!

I'm putting together DMCA tdn right now, but this thing made me wonder - don't they have some system in place to check if the uploader is actually the owner of the clip/video? If they don't (which seems to be the case), they must be yet another scammers paradise as if we don't have enough already.

How in the world are we supposed to check 20K of their friggin' "stores" to make sure our stuff is not there? Provided their search system sucks ass (although it returned "stores" with our vids right away, but I'm sure that's just the top of the iceberg). And they're not simply showing it like tube sites do, they actually SELL it? Smells like lawsuit to me.

Do Jesus. Thieft got really out of hand now a days.

If you're content owner, I highly recommend checking clips4sale and make sure no fucking "store owner" is selling your stuff there.

[Jim_Gunn]

Nautilus, Neil at C4S will probably respond to an email pretty quickly and disable the stores selling your product. I have perused a lot of the stores and I rarely see stolen content, but of course, that doesn't mean that it's not there. Most of the stores appear to be amateur, fetish producers or individual models selling their own video clips. By the way, with the kind of content you have you should have your own stores on there selling video clips. You would probably do pretty well. And that would also help keep other store owners from using your videos illegally if they see your presence on there.

[Va2k]

Great post Jim, I never understood why someone would run to this place and bitch and moan and not contact the owner first hand!! *shrugs* I shoot my own content and every now and then I will see one of mine here and there adn a email 99% of the time works, without going all postal on someone lol

[mikesouth]

what Jim said...Neil tries very hard to keep it honest but it does happen. It helps if your content is watermarked, my stuff doesn't get stolen there very much at all and if it does appear in a new store I will hear about it very quickly, not from neil but from others on the site. I also have found Jules Jordans stuff as well as others and I fire em an email with contact info for Neil so that they can take care of it. Neil is a good guy and C4S is a good site.

[tony286]

neil will take care of it.

[adonthenet]

Drama?!?!? :P

[Jim_Gunn]

Yeah, Mike raises a good point. All your videos should be watermarked. That helps identify the clips and may make other people leery of stealing them for re-sale.

[Nautilus]

I do not want to watermark our videos because it'll spoil them and make less pleasant to watch for our members. But looks like I'll have to, with all the thriving thieft around.

[mikesouth]

Originally Posted by Nautilus

I do not want to watermark our videos because it'll spoil them and make less pleasant to watch for our members. But looks like I'll have to, with all the thriving thieft around.

I used to think that too but since i started watermarking not one single member has ever complained....do it

[notime]

Originally Posted by Nautilus

I do not want to watermark our videos because it'll spoil them and make less pleasant to watch for our members. But looks like I'll have to, with all the thriving thieft around.

Read one of my old threads about invisible watermarking (and fully automated internet scans that look for stolen content):
http://www.gfy.com/fucking-around-and-business-discussion/853255-anti-piracy-solution-found-online-dvds-philips.html

[Jim_Gunn]

Originally Posted by Nautilus

I do not want to watermark our videos because it'll spoil them and make less pleasant to watch for our members. But looks like I'll have to, with all the thriving thieft around.

Nearly every company watermarks their videos, no members will complain about a small to medium sized watermark in the lower right of the frame, especially if you design it nicely with a graphic or text.

[Nautilus]

Originally Posted by mikesouth

I used to think that too but since i started watermarking not one single member has ever complained....do it

I do not think members are going to complain over this, since it's owner right to watermark his content, but I do not think they'll be happy with it either.

Maybe I'm overreacting on this, I just do not like the mere idea of taking something away (even a tiny bit) from a legit paying customers only because there are thieves lurking around. My strategy for as long as I was in this biz (which is more than a decade) was "ignore the thieves and make paying customers happy". But it just do not seems to work anymore, thieves got way out of hand.

Also, are you talking about invisible digital watermark or adding a logo?

[Nautilus]

Originally Posted by notime

Read one of my old threads about invisible watermarking (and fully automated internet scans that look for stolen content):
http://www.gfy.com/fucking-around-and-business-discussion/853255-anti-piracy-solution-found-online-dvds-philips.html

Thanks for the link.

Do you know of any company that is already using that technology? Has it proven to be practical/succesful?

[tony286]

Originally Posted by notime

Read one of my old threads about invisible watermarking (and fully automated internet scans that look for stolen content):
http://www.gfy.com/fucking-around-and-business-discussion/853255-anti-piracy-solution-found-online-dvds-philips.html

anyone find out what that costs?

[Nautilus]

Originally Posted by Jim_Gunn

Nearly every company watermarks their videos, no members will complain about a small to medium sized watermark in the lower right of the frame, especially if you design it nicely with a graphic or text.

Maybe you're right, I just do not like being forced to do that.

Yeah, I know. Adapt or die, heard that thousand times already...

[media]

Originally Posted by Nautilus

Maybe I'm overreacting on this, I just do not like the mere idea of taking something away (even a tiny bit) from a legit paying customers only because there are thieves lurking around.

Do people complain that fox, cnn, abc, nbc, amc, tnt, etc watermark the corner of every tv show they watch? no they don't complain the consumer is used to it now.. its engrained in the heads of everyone now that there will be some sort of mark on video..

Just handle business, send an email, add a physical and invisible watermark, and protect your content. You've been in the biz for a while, you should know this is a different day and age.

[tony286]

watermarking is old been watermarking everything over 8 yrs.Never had anyone complain

[Nautilus]

Originally Posted by media

Do people complain that fox, cnn, abc, nbc, amc, tnt, etc watermark the corner of every tv show they watch? no they don't complain the consumer is used to it now.. its engrained in the heads of everyone now that there will be some sort of mark on video..

They're adding logos only when broadcasting shows, when it's free to a viewer. But not to DVD copies and to what they sell online, when customers actually pay to view them. At least I've never seen them on any bought media.

Never seen Paramaunt or Univeral logo within a feature film sold on DVD as well.

Cable and sattelite channels add logos though, despite being paid subscriptions.

Just handle business, send an email, add a physical and invisible watermark, and protect your content. You've been in the biz for a while, you should know this is a different day and age.

Yep times are different now... But it often feels like '9x again. No one plays by rules, incredible amount of thieve and scam sites around.

[ultimatebbwdotcom]

Originally Posted by Nautilus

They're adding logos only when broadcasting shows, when it's free to a viewer. But not to DVD copies and to what they sell online, when customers actually pay to view them. At least I've never seen them on any bought media.

Never seen Paramaunt or Univeral logo within a feature film sold on DVD as well.

Cable and sattelite channels add logos though, despite being paid subscriptions.



Yep times are different now... But it often feels like '9x again. No one plays by rules, incredible amount of thieve and scam sites around.

I can understand that you feel a member should have an unblighted viewing experience when paying, however, members are used to this from almost every other site online - so I cant see anyone complaining.

[notime]

Originally Posted by tony404

anyone find out what that costs?

I believe something like a 12 cents per minute content but I am not sure

[aico]

so if it is indeed your content being stolen and used, I am sure there are records of how often those stolen clips were purchased. Should you not be entitled to that money?

[Nautilus]

I'm pretty sure we should.

[babymaker]

Clips4sale and clips are real strict, it is not so easy to just open a store you have to provide model id's and releases, so make sure it's not someone working for you or you know robbing you, otherwise i don't see how they got it on clips4sale???

[ultimatebbwdotcom]

Originally Posted by aico

so if it is indeed your content being stolen and used, I am sure there are records of how often those stolen clips were purchased. Should you not be entitled to that money?

You'd think,

The answer I got when this happened was "we've closed the store and wont be paying anything to the store owner"

" So, how about my money from the sale of those clips"

................................no reply

[After Shock Media]

Originally Posted by aico

so if it is indeed your content being stolen and used, I am sure there are records of how often those stolen clips were purchased. Should you not be entitled to that money?

From the person that stole and posted your material, not from clips4sale themselves. Plus no reason they should be required to double payout for such material if they indeed did not know.

Also I would hope that the owner of the clips filed for real copyrights on their material. That way they could go after real damages.

Originally Posted by babymaker

Clips4sale and clips are real strict, it is not so easy to just open a store you have to provide model id's and releases, so make sure it's not someone working for you or you know robbing you, otherwise i don't see how they got it on clips4sale???

They never have asked me for model ID's and releases. Could anyone imagine the work that would be required to sort, check, and compile model releases and ID's for every upload every day?
I am pretty sure you just need to prove who you are to clips4sale and sign some paperwork. From there on out you upload and post.

Lastly to the original poster who may be anti watermark. Do you at least add a logo/mark at the start and copyright info at the end of videos? I know you used the argument that mainstream doesn't use watermarks on purchased media and stuff. They do however add stuff to beginning and end of their videos.

[Nautilus]

Originally Posted by babymaker

Clips4sale and clips are real strict, it is not so easy to just open a store you have to provide model id's and releases, so make sure it's not someone working for you or you know robbing you, otherwise i don't see how they got it on clips4sale???

Hm... Interesting twist. I'll need to check that one too.

[aico]

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

From the person that stole and posted your material, not from clips4sale themselves. Plus no reason they should be required to double payout for such material if they indeed did not know.

Also I would hope that the owner of the clips filed for real copyrights on their material. That way they could go after real damages.



They never have asked me for model ID's and releases. Could anyone imagine the work that would be required to sort, check, and compile model releases and ID's for every upload every day?
I am pretty sure you just need to prove who you are to clips4sale and sign some paperwork. From there on out you upload and post.

Lastly to the original poster who may be anti watermark. Do you at least add a logo/mark at the start and copyright info at the end of videos? I know you used the argument that mainstream doesn't use watermarks on purchased media and stuff. They do however add stuff to beginning and end of their videos.

Ok, but isn't the sale of stolen property illegal? Even if you don't know it's been stolen? This isn't the same a tube site, who gives it away for free, the stolen product is being sold.

I am sure C4S knows who was selling it illegally, their address, probably even their SS# (if US). Shouldn't it be reported to authorities, or wouldn't that make them an accessory to the crime?

[Nautilus]

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

Lastly to the original poster who may be anti watermark. Do you at least add a logo/mark at the start and copyright info at the end of videos? I know you used the argument that mainstream doesn't use watermarks on purchased media and stuff. They do however add stuff to beginning and end of their videos.

No we don't. Plan on doing this though.

But I think that kind of logos are too easily removed to real matter.

[Jim_Gunn]

Originally Posted by babymaker

Clips4sale and clips are real strict, it is not so easy to just open a store you have to provide model id's and releases, so make sure it's not someone working for you or you know robbing you, otherwise i don't see how they got it on clips4sale???

Do you actually have a C4S or Clips.com store or are you just making this up on supposition? Because I can tell you for sure that neither site asks for ids or model releases from studio owners when they open up a store.

[After Shock Media]

Originally Posted by aico

Ok, but isn't the sale of stolen property illegal? Even if you don't know it's been stolen? This isn't the same a tube site, who gives it away for free, the stolen product is being sold.

I am sure C4S knows who was selling it illegally, their address, probably even their SS# (if US). Shouldn't it be reported to authorities, or wouldn't that make them an accessory to the crime?

Copyright law is a bit different than other criminal laws. You need to look into the whole safe harbor provisions and why there are some loopholes in the DMCA laws. Sort of how google is not responsible for adwords next to stolen content, unless they are notified that the given content is stolen.

C4S would know or have information on such. They also could turn it over to help any investigation. Not turning over private information without being required to by law/legal notice though is not always illegal either.

These really are questions for a lawyer and I sure in the hell am not one.

[babymaker]

Originally Posted by Jim_Gunn

Do you actually have a C4S or Clips.com store or are you just making this up on supposition? Because I can tell you for sure that neither site asks for ids or model releases from studio owners when they open up a store.

I have both, and both required it, i only opened them within the last year, so i dont know if it was different before, but i needed it.

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by Jim_Gunn

Nautilus, Neil at C4S will probably respond to an email pretty quickly and disable the stores selling your product. I have perused a lot of the stores and I rarely see stolen content, but of course, that doesn't mean that it's not there. Most of the stores appear to be amateur, fetish producers or individual models selling their own video clips. By the way, with the kind of content you have you should have your own stores on there selling video clips. You would probably do pretty well. And that would also help keep other store owners from using your videos illegally if they see your presence on there.

Exactly right.

I have come across other foot studios in the past. While it was not even MY CONTENT, I still contacted both Neil, and the studio being ripped off. Neil had them down in an hour.

Why people always throw up a bat signal here before contacting people is beyond me.

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by Nautilus

I do not want to watermark our videos because it'll spoil them and make less pleasant to watch for our members. But looks like I'll have to, with all the thriving thieft around.

Not watermarking them is just asking for theft.
Especially in this business.

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by Jim_Gunn

Do you actually have a C4S or Clips.com store or are you just making this up on supposition? Because I can tell you for sure that neither site asks for ids or model releases from studio owners when they open up a store.

Actually, you are, and have always, supposed to provide these. It's been like that for 2-3 years now if you shoot nudity.

Hence, if you look in your FTP folders. You see folders for model ID's, and releases for your store. Sounds like it's just been lax enforcement on the issue. I do not shoot nudity for the most part.

But I have all required docs all the same.

[pornlaw]

Copyright law is a bit different than other criminal laws. You need to look into the whole safe harbor provisions and why there are some loopholes in the DMCA laws. Sort of how google is not responsible for adwords next to stolen content, unless they are notified that the given content is stolen.

Hmmmm.... I do not even see a DMCA Policy anywhere on C4S... I didnt look forever, but it should have been in the footer...

Also... they have NOT filed their designation of agent for DMCA purposes with the Copyright Office pursuant to Section 512(c) of the Copyright Act.

They may not get to use the "loopholes" and safe harbor provisions if they are sued.

[After Shock Media]

Originally Posted by pornlaw

Hmmmm.... I do not even see a DMCA Policy anywhere on C4S... I didnt look forever, but it should have been in the footer...

Also... they have NOT filed their designation of agent for DMCA purposes with the Copyright Office pursuant to Section 512(c) of the Copyright Act.

They may not get to use the "loopholes" and safe harbor provisions if they are sued.

And that is why you are a lawyer and I am not.

[Ryan St. Germain]

I've had two instances of people stealing my content and using it in their stores on Clips4Sale, and both times Neil has shut them down immediately and given me all their contact information.
I think that both clips.com and clips4sale.com make honest efforts to police this sort of thing, but it's a very difficult task, and shouldn't be judged as much by reaction as prevention, because it's IMPOSSIBLE to prevent people from stealing your content if it's available on the internet.

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by pornlaw

They may not get to use the "loopholes" and safe harbor provisions if they are sued.

Irregardless....

Even in DMCA you are required to send a notice to them, and their address is clearly listed on the main page. Furthermore, they provide numerous contact e-mails, and a phone number, plus office hours on links off the main page.

How about you stop thinking about tasty lawsuits, and just contact them.

[pornlaw]

Irregardless....

Even in DMCA you are required to send a notice to them, and their address is clearly listed on the main page. Furthermore, they provide numerous contact e-mails, and a phone number, plus office hours on links off the main page.

How about you stop thinking about tasty lawsuits, and just contact them.

I dont have a dog in this hunt....

The DMCA has ripped apart the ability to protect intellectual property on the internet. The government has made it sooooooo easy to avoid a copyright lawsuit it is laughable. Anyone who gets sued for infringement today as to be a tool. For all the money that C4S makes, it would be ridiculous not to pay the whole $80 to the Copyright Office and register an agent and slap up a DMCA Policy with Counter Notification terms. It really is almost that easy.

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by pornlaw

I dont have a dog in this hunt....

Same here.

I forwarded a copy/link to thread for Neil/C4S to review.

[d-null]

Originally Posted by pornlaw

I dont have a dog in this hunt....

The DMCA has ripped apart the ability to protect intellectual property on the internet. The government has made it sooooooo easy to avoid a copyright lawsuit it is laughable. Anyone who gets sued for infringement today as to be a tool. For all the money that C4S makes, it would be ridiculous not to pay the whole $80 to the Copyright Office and register an agent and slap up a DMCA Policy with Counter Notification terms. It really is almost that easy.

interesting, what is the $80 to the copyright office for? are they the ones that keep track of agents? is that necessary for dmca protection? would love to hear a little more details on this concept

[Hollywood Horwitz]

Hey Nautilus, I sent you an email, lmk what ya think. thnx

[Tat2Jr]

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

Not watermarking them is just asking for theft.
Especially in this business.

I agree. It's crazy to not watermark. NOTHING has left my desktop without a URL logo on it. Alright, thumbnails - but other then that, EVERYTHING has my URL on it. When that guy pops his nut I want him to know exactly who brought him that pleasure. Watermarking since 1997. Never a single complaint. Never.

[d-null]

curious how sponsors feel about sites that RE-watermark everything that goes through them? kind of like how youtube does it.....

I've seen some obnoxious ones lately that are bright and white and big enough that they generally obliterate any original watermark underneath them