Senate Fails to Pass Auto Bailout and Declares It Dead

[Redrob]

Stock markets are falling around the world tonight.

I think tomorrow on Wall Street is going to be a blood bath unless the Prez steps in.

Any thoughts or ideas?

[Robbie]

Yeah, I think we have to let them go bankrupt and start over. I saw a Senator on the news this morning who pointed out that Chrysler is owned by a parent company that has 25 billion dollars in assets. And that parent company refuses to bail out it's own holdings (Chrysler) because it sees any money that if puts in as lost.

I feel that's what will happen with taxpayer money. It pretty much will be just throwing the money away and buying a month or two of time. Because the auto makers are going to continue to fail. Sucks.

[Sly]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Yeah, I think we have to let them go bankrupt and start over. I saw a Senator on the news this morning who pointed out that Chrysler is owned by a parent company that has 25 billion dollars in assets. And that parent company refuses to bail out it's own holdings (Chrysler) because it sees any money that if puts in as lost.

I feel that's what will happen with taxpayer money. It pretty much will be just throwing the money away and buying a month or two of time. Because the auto makers are going to continue to fail. Sucks.

Cerberus owns 51%. It isn't like they have $25 billion laying around to throw into a company though, that isn't how it works.

They will get the loan, somebody somewhere will just need to make some concessions. And on principle I suppose taxpayers can be upset, but the money will come back at some point or another. This isn't the first time this has happened, will not be the last. I don't like the idea of a bail out because I think it fosters bad business practices, but much more can be lost by just letting them drop off the face of the earth. They do need to take some heavy heavy hits though to pay their price.

[Sly]

Oops looks like they own 80% now.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by Sly

Oops looks like they own 80% now.

Yeah, that's what the Senator was saying on the news. He pointed out that company refuses to bail out chrysler because they see it as money lost. And yet...U.S. taxpayers are supposed to take that very loss. wtf?

I've been wondering also...if we keep bailing out all these banks, and we keep bailing out all these companies...where is the money supposed to come from? Everybody is losing their jobs. Last month it was 22,000 people a day losing their job. So if everyone is losing their jobs, that means less people paying taxes. And with all the companies going bankrupt that means less companies paying taxes.

So less incoming revenue + HUGE bank bailout + BIG car company bailout + HUGE cost of two wars = Does Not Compute

[MetaMan]

is it just me or does everything seem way to planned? i for some reason feel a new world order coming on and i hope to god i am wrong.

[MetaMan]

Basically the way i see it is the govt is going to bankrupt the people take over all the banks which they are basically already doing and then start everything over with complete control. and i see this happening on a global scale.

[JD]

totally agree MetaMan... can't believe I said that since I'm not a tinfoil ranger but it's sure looking like that's the direction the world is heading in :/

[iMind]

Originally Posted by JD

totally agree MetaMan... can't believe I said that since I'm not a tinfoil ranger but it's sure looking like that's the direction the world is heading in :/

it's EXACTLY the way the world is headed..

They have handed over 7 TRILLION dollars over to banks no questions asked... Hell even the federal reserve got bailout money ( but aren't they the guys that PRINT the money? ) but the automakers had to BEG for a measly 25 Billion?

People need to see what's coming , Great Depression 2.0

You are about to watch the greatest deflation of a nation in history..
buckle up.

[iMind]

Man, how the fuck do you guys post youtube vids!?!

[iMind]

Man, I can't wait till the morning LOL..

I got some MAJOR "I Told ya so's" to collect....

I called this shit weeks ago.

[CyberHustler]

Originally Posted by iMind

Man, how the fuck do you guys post youtube vids!?!

[iMind]

Originally Posted by Nick Decker

did you fix what I posted? I only see a white square.. but it's fine in your quote..

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Yeah, I think we have to let them go bankrupt and start over. I saw a Senator on the news this morning who pointed out that Chrysler is owned by a parent company that has 25 billion dollars in assets. And that parent company refuses to bail out it's own holdings (Chrysler) because it sees any money that if puts in as lost.

I feel that's what will happen with taxpayer money. It pretty much will be just throwing the money away and buying a month or two of time. Because the auto makers are going to continue to fail. Sucks.

Yeah start over right after the Great Depression part 2 is over. yeah Wall Street rich guys that produce NOTHING get $700 billion people who bust their ass everyday WORKING get nothing. By the way the amount they were asking for $14 billion was only 1/4 of Bill Gates bank account.

People don't get it once these companies go belly up it's not just the auto workers that are out of the job, factories that make the parts for the cars will go belly up. Place that supply those factories will go belly up. Now that you have hundreds of thousands of more workers in towns all over America without jobs places like stores and restaurants that depend on those workers coming in and buying things won't have those workers coming in because they don't have jobs. So those businesses will either layoff workers or go out of business.

Oh yeah all these people that will now no longer have jobs will get unemployment and food stamps. Where does that mney come from? Yes we the tax payer. And it's going to be a hell of a lot more than $14 billion.

By the way this was a LOAN not a bailout. The 2nd Great Depression has now begun. enjoy.

[qxm]

shit will hit the fan at the stock market in a few mins....

[cykoe6]

So much stupidity in one thread. An impressive display as always.

[MetaMan]

Originally Posted by JD

totally agree MetaMan... can't believe I said that since I'm not a tinfoil ranger but it's sure looking like that's the direction the world is heading in :/

i am far from a tinfoil type person also, many educated and rich friends of mine also agree with me, some have even bought arms "just incase" this is not one of those Y2K type things imho.

[PSSuperstars]

So where's the doom and gloom on the market today?
All my stocks are up..
and I picked up BAC with its fall this morning.

[geedub]

Originally Posted by GatorB

Yeah start over right after the Great Depression part 2 is over. yeah Wall Street rich guys that produce NOTHING get $700 billion people who bust their ass everyday WORKING get nothing. By the way the amount they were asking for $14 billion was only 1/4 of Bill Gates bank account.

People don't get it once these companies go belly up it's not just the auto workers that are out of the job, factories that make the parts for the cars will go belly up. Place that supply those factories will go belly up. Now that you have hundreds of thousands of more workers in towns all over America without jobs places like stores and restaurants that depend on those workers coming in and buying things won't have those workers coming in because they don't have jobs. So those businesses will either layoff workers or go out of business.

Oh yeah all these people that will now no longer have jobs will get unemployment and food stamps. Where does that mney come from? Yes we the tax payer. And it's going to be a hell of a lot more than $14 billion.

By the way this was a LOAN not a bailout. The 2nd Great Depression has now begun. enjoy.

a few of my cousins work for a local factory by my parent's home town that makes the transparent plastic pieces that go in dash boards to make all the gauges light up or whatever. they're pretty much going under right now, a bunch of the plants closed, the main one laying people off and losing mad work

[IllTestYourGirls]

Originally Posted by GatorB

Yeah start over right after the Great Depression part 2 is over. yeah Wall Street rich guys that produce NOTHING get $700 billion people who bust their ass everyday WORKING get nothing. By the way the amount they were asking for $14 billion was only 1/4 of Bill Gates bank account.

People don't get it once these companies go belly up it's not just the auto workers that are out of the job, factories that make the parts for the cars will go belly up. Place that supply those factories will go belly up. Now that you have hundreds of thousands of more workers in towns all over America without jobs places like stores and restaurants that depend on those workers coming in and buying things won't have those workers coming in because they don't have jobs. So those businesses will either layoff workers or go out of business.

Oh yeah all these people that will now no longer have jobs will get unemployment and food stamps. Where does that mney come from? Yes we the tax payer. And it's going to be a hell of a lot more than $14 billion.

By the way this was a LOAN not a bailout. The 2nd Great Depression has now begun. enjoy.

Those jobs are going to be lost no matter what. What are all these people going to make? Who is going to buy it? Sure keep making cars no one is going to buy and just park them on Detroit streets for the homeless to live in.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by JD

totally agree MetaMan... can't believe I said that since I'm not a tinfoil ranger but it's sure looking like that's the direction the world is heading in :/

just because you question something does not make you a "tinfoil" ranger. When you don't ask questions and seek knowledge you end up in a spot like pre WWII Germany.

[Snake Doctor]

What pisses me off about the failure to pass this is that it wasn't an up or down vote. They needed 60 to avoid a filibuster....a filibuster from lame duck republicans who lost in the last election.....yet these same people are going to use the few days they have left to hold our economy hostage.

I totally understand republicans voting against this on principle...but to use procedural roadblocks to prevent an up or down vote on something that affects 3 million jobs is just fucking ridiculous.

[tony286]

Originally Posted by iMind

it's EXACTLY the way the world is headed..

They have handed over 7 TRILLION dollars over to banks no questions asked... Hell even the federal reserve got bailout money ( but aren't they the guys that PRINT the money? ) but the automakers had to BEG for a measly 25 Billion?

People need to see what's coming , Great Depression 2.0

You are about to watch the greatest deflation of a nation in history..
buckle up.

its about the right wanting to kill unions once and for all. You are right I didnt see them beating up aig about how much their employees make. Its also funny the loudest voices against have foreign car plants in their states.

[PSSuperstars]

Still waiting guys..
Where's the doom and gloom?

My bank stocks are up.
My retail stocks are up.
and
SHOCK
my auto stocks are up.

Doom? Gloom? Where?

I thought today was going to be HORRRRRRRRRRIBLE.
Right?

[JP-pornshooter]

i said from the begin, NO BAIL OUTS, not for AIG, not for anyone.. let the markets do their work.
the real issue with the US auto industry is the unions, can you believe they are not willing to give concessions..
the unions in US are not like in other countries, the union people live like kings, they make 3 - 5 times the salary of regular workers, plus they get health care and retirement second to none..
i have union friends who have "given" their girlfriends boob jobs, covered 100% by their health insurance, and they were not even married.

Unions are ruining so much business in USA by being greedy.
Airlines will go bankrupt
Car manufacturers will go bankrupt

Stupid unions dont even realize that they are digging their own graves..

we must let the automakers go bankrupt, another company buys them out but does not sign with united autoworkers.. run it like toyota or honda or bmw factories who are successfully making cars in usa and making coin. this is the only way.

[Brad]

Globalization is a bitch isn't it.

[ztik]

Originally Posted by geedub

a few of my cousins work for a local factory by my parent's home town that makes the transparent plastic pieces that go in dash boards to make all the gauges light up or whatever. they're pretty much going under right now, a bunch of the plants closed, the main one laying people off and losing mad work

its that businesses fault for putting all their eggs in one basket

[jmcb420]

i'm still alive, but this is a bad day for alot of people around me. This effects the local economy where I am royaly. lol, land is about to get real cheap around here.
On the other hand, I hold ownership in a local construction company. Just this morning we bid on a good sized project and if we get the job, we're good til at least the beging of February. After that, who the hell knows? When things start going to shit it dosen't really take long.

[tony286]

Originally Posted by JP-pornshooter

i said from the begin, NO BAIL OUTS, not for AIG, not for anyone.. let the markets do their work.
the real issue with the US auto industry is the unions, can you believe they are not willing to give concessions..
the unions in US are not like in other countries, the union people live like kings, they make 3 - 5 times the salary of regular workers, plus they get health care and retirement second to none..
i have union friends who have "given" their girlfriends boob jobs, covered 100% by their health insurance, and they were not even married.

Unions are ruining so much business in USA by being greedy.
Airlines will go bankrupt
Car manufacturers will go bankrupt

Stupid unions dont even realize that they are digging their own graves..

we must let the automakers go bankrupt, another company buys them out but does not sign with united autoworkers.. run it like toyota or honda or bmw factories who are successfully making cars in usa and making coin. this is the only way.

That's actually not true the 70 bucks an hour is bullshit they make about 28 dollars an hour for back breaking work and foreign car companies have an advantage government health care.Alabama gave foreign car companies over a billion dollars in tax breaks and subsites.Also 3 million people go out of work plan on going out of business with them.

[tony286]

Originally Posted by ztik

its that businesses fault for putting all their eggs in one basket

its their fault ? that's funny.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by tony404

for back breaking work

Huh? It's an assembly line isn't it? When I was a teenager I dug post holes all day during highschool in one of my Dad's cattle pastures in the hot sun. THAT was back breaking work. I was friends with quite a few guys and girls who worked the assembly lines in Michigan in the late 1980's and early 1990's when my band used to play all through Michigan (Flynt, Jackson, Detroit, Muskegon) and they all made great money and seemed to be doing real well and were happy. Didn't look like they were doing "back breaking work" for low pay. Not saying that they were overpaid, just saying...

[tony286]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Huh? It's an assembly line isn't it? When I was a teenager I dug post holes all day during highschool in one of my Dad's cattle pastures in the hot sun. THAT was back breaking work. I was friends with quite a few guys and girls who worked the assembly lines in Michigan in the late 1980's and early 1990's when my band used to play all through Michigan (Flynt, Jackson, Detroit, Muskegon) and they all made great money and seemed to be doing real well and were happy. Didn't look like they were doing "back breaking work" for low pay. Not saying that they were overpaid, just saying...

I built cars for gm in the mid 80's for the tarrytown plant . Buick century and Pontiac 6000, we made a big 11 buck an hour plus benefits which was a decent wage in the day. The work was hard, hot and very suckful. In the two yrs I was there 2 guys died from plant accidents. Things you take for granted like being able to go to the bathroom when you like and had to learn to take aspirin without water because there was none near my place on the line.
How come no one was screaming about what banks, wall street and aig employees make? They gave aig what 85 billion and told them nothing about how to run their business.Maybe it was because the senators against this the same ones that voted for the 700 billion dollar bail out didnt have a interest like they do with those foreign plants in their states.

[Luscious Media]

My father-in-law worked as a consultant for the big 3. He tells me stories of how the unions require two workers for a particular job, yet the job can be done by one person. He found guys who, instead of sharing the load, have one do the work while the other sleeps off the partying from the night before. The next night they switch places.

He also saw guys that had been laid off sitting in the breakroom drinking coffee and reading the paper. Why were they there? Union rules. Were they getting paid? You betcha.

Overblown salaries, huge pensions, benefit packages...it all adds up to greed. How many of you are making $70 an hour? How many of you are guaranteed $35 an hour if you get laid off? How many of you are guaranteed health care for life? Hell, I'm retired military and don't have health care for life.

Unions had their place years ago when guys were walking steel 50 stories high with no safety requirements. Now the unions are out for themsleves. Money is the key to their success and will also be their downfall.

The management are also to blame. They're begging for a bailout to retool? Are you fucking kidding me? The time to retool was 10 years ago. What do they say about that? "We had no idea it would happen like this." Bullshit! That's their fucking job and they failed.

Imagine any one of them having the foresight to make a fuel efficient car 10 years ago. Then take that car and make it even better. By now it would be getting 100mpg and be selling like hotcakes. No, instead they build Hummers by the thousands. Not one of those fuckers earning millions a year saw any of this coming? I mean...wtf?!! Isn't that why they are chosen to run their company?

So I say wooohooo! No bailout for you.

[Robbie]

Tony, I'm thinking the union wasn't doing it's job if you couldn't go to the bathroom. The most recent people I know that work at a car plant are in South Carolina at the BMW plant. They don't have a union. And EVERYBODY wants to get on there because they make great money, have tremendous vacation packages and health benefits that make the rest of the poor rednecks in that area living in trailers very envious.

I guess it's all a matter of perspective. I think the auto workers have a pretty good gig as far as jobs go. But they may not have a job at all if their unions can't make concessions. If hard times are indeed coming...then those workers are either going to have to make a LOT less money...or they will make no money at all. Something is better than nothing.

[BlackCrayon]

Originally Posted by Luscious Media

My father-in-law worked as a consultant for the big 3. He tells me stories of how the unions require two workers for a particular job, yet the job can be done by one person. He found guys who, instead of sharing the load, have one do the work while the other sleeps off the partying from the night before. The next night they switch places.

He also saw guys that had been laid off sitting in the breakroom drinking coffee and reading the paper. Why were they there? Union rules. Were they getting paid? You betcha.

Overblown salaries, huge pensions, benefit packages...it all adds up to greed. How many of you are making $70 an hour? How many of you are guaranteed $35 an hour if you get laid off? How many of you are guaranteed health care for life? Hell, I'm retired military and don't have health care for life.

Unions had their place years ago when guys were walking steel 50 stories high with no safety requirements. Now the unions are out for themsleves. Money is the key to their success and will also be their downfall.

The management are also to blame. They're begging for a bailout to retool? Are you fucking kidding me? The time to retool was 10 years ago. What do they say about that? "We had no idea it would happen like this." Bullshit! That's their fucking job and they failed.

Imagine any one of them having the foresight to make a fuel efficient car 10 years ago. Then take that car and make it even better. By now it would be getting 100mpg and be selling like hotcakes. No, instead they build Hummers by the thousands. Not one of those fuckers earning millions a year saw any of this coming? I mean...wtf?!! Isn't that why they are chosen to run their company?

So I say wooohooo! No bailout for you.

Assembly line workers are not making 70 an hour...and just about any decent government or private industry job offers benefits for life. You pay into it the entire time you are working, same as your pension.

[tony286]

Originally Posted by Luscious Media

My father-in-law worked as a consultant for the big 3. He tells me stories of how the unions require two workers for a particular job, yet the job can be done by one person. He found guys who, instead of sharing the load, have one do the work while the other sleeps off the partying from the night before. The next night they switch places.

He also saw guys that had been laid off sitting in the breakroom drinking coffee and reading the paper. Why were they there? Union rules. Were they getting paid? You betcha.

Overblown salaries, huge pensions, benefit packages...it all adds up to greed. How many of you are making $70 an hour? How many of you are guaranteed $35 an hour if you get laid off? How many of you are guaranteed health care for life? Hell, I'm retired military and don't have health care for life.

Unions had their place years ago when guys were walking steel 50 stories high with no safety requirements. Now the unions are out for themsleves. Money is the key to their success and will also be their downfall.

The management are also to blame. They're begging for a bailout to retool? Are you fucking kidding me? The time to retool was 10 years ago. What do they say about that? "We had no idea it would happen like this." Bullshit! That's their fucking job and they failed.

Imagine any one of them having the foresight to make a fuel efficient car 10 years ago. Then take that car and make it even better. By now it would be getting 100mpg and be selling like hotcakes. No, instead they build Hummers by the thousands. Not one of those fuckers earning millions a year saw any of this coming? I mean...wtf?!! Isn't that why they are chosen to run their company?

So I say wooohooo! No bailout for you.

they dont make 70 bucks an hour or 30 when laid off.They dont make that not even close.

[tony286]

Originally Posted by BlackCrayon

Assembly line workers are not making 70 an hour...and just about any decent government or private industry job offers benefits for life. You pay into it the entire time you are working, same as your pension.

People are sheep really, the white collar guys on wall st are fine no questioning what they make.But the line worker is the villain its too funny and then they wonder why wages are steadily dropping in this country.

[cykoe6]

Originally Posted by JP-pornshooter

i said from the begin, NO BAIL OUTS, not for AIG, not for anyone.. let the markets do their work.
the real issue with the US auto industry is the unions, can you believe they are not willing to give concessions..
the unions in US are not like in other countries, the union people live like kings, they make 3 - 5 times the salary of regular workers, plus they get health care and retirement second to none..
i have union friends who have "given" their girlfriends boob jobs, covered 100% by their health insurance, and they were not even married.

Unions are ruining so much business in USA by being greedy.
Airlines will go bankrupt
Car manufacturers will go bankrupt

Stupid unions dont even realize that they are digging their own graves..

we must let the automakers go bankrupt, another company buys them out but does not sign with united autoworkers.. run it like toyota or honda or bmw factories who are successfully making cars in usa and making coin. this is the only way.

It is nice to know that some people have some sense.

[Ayla_SquareTurtle]

Originally Posted by tony404

they dont make 70 bucks an hour or 30 when laid off.They dont make that not even close.

Well, it's a lot easier to justify sending the little guy up the river if you can make yourself believe he's been making bank for nothing.

[Kudles]

Big shocker!!

[OMG Jim]

Originally Posted by iMind

Man, how the fuck do you guys post youtube vids!?!

Use the Embed code vs. the URL

[JP-pornshooter]

Originally Posted by tony404

they dont make 70 bucks an hour or 30 when laid off.They dont make that not even close.

if you know, why dont you tell us what they make?

and it is not fair to say "lets compare their benefits to the top tier white collar", instead lets compare them to regular americans, mid management, office workers, bank tellars, service industry workers..
By far all these people who work in free enterprise (not unions) are getting short changed compared to these union workers.
Now you are asking those free enterprise tax payers to give the union members their tax money, thats just plain insane.. if i were them, i would tell the auto union workers to GFY

[Luscious Media]

Originally Posted by BlackCrayon

Assembly line workers are not making 70 an hour...and just about any decent government or private industry job offers benefits for life. You pay into it the entire time you are working, same as your pension.

You are correct. I misstated the facts. What I meant and should have said was, it costs over $70 per hour on average to employ a union auto worker. That includes their hourly pay, plus the benefits they?re receiving and all the other costs to the companies, including legacy costs ? retirement costs, pensions and more. Compare that to the $50 an hour companies like Honda and Nissan are paying their employees. That's a huge diffence when averaged company wide. Huge!

I still say...Stay the fuck out of my pocket! That goes for the auto industry as well as Wall Street. If they must spend 14 BILLION DOLLARS then give it to a company that will prosper. Not 3 that have shown they know dick about making a profit or a decent car for that matter. As for Wall Street...well...that ship has sailed...unfortunately.

[Shoehorn!]

Originally Posted by Luscious Media

My father-in-law worked as a consultant for the big 3. He tells me stories of how the unions require two workers for a particular job, yet the job can be done by one person. He found guys who, instead of sharing the load, have one do the work while the other sleeps off the partying from the night before. The next night they switch places.

He also saw guys that had been laid off sitting in the breakroom drinking coffee and reading the paper. Why were they there? Union rules. Were they getting paid? You betcha.

Unions had their place years ago when guys were walking steel 50 stories high with no safety requirements. Now the unions are out for themsleves. Money is the key to their success and will also be their downfall.

That is spot on.

[Tickler]

Originally Posted by Luscious Media

You are correct. I misstated the facts. What I meant and should have said was, it costs over $70 per hour on average to employ a union auto worker. That includes their hourly pay, plus the benefits they?re receiving and all the other costs to the companies, including legacy costs ? retirement costs, pensions and more. Compare that to the $50 an hour companies like Honda and Nissan are paying their employees. That's a huge diffence when averaged company wide. Huge!

Keep in mind that these foreign car manufactures have not been in place for 100 years to accrue the liabilities(benefits) that Detroit has.

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by JP-pornshooter

i said from the begin, NO BAIL OUTS, not for AIG, not for anyone.. let the markets do their work.
the real issue with the US auto industry is the unions, can you believe they are not willing to give concessions..
the unions in US are not like in other countries, the union people live like kings, they make 3 - 5 times the salary of regular workers, plus they get health care and retirement second to none..
i have union friends who have "given" their girlfriends boob jobs, covered 100% by their health insurance, and they were not even married.

Unions are ruining so much business in USA by being greedy.
Airlines will go bankrupt
Car manufacturers will go bankrupt

Stupid unions dont even realize that they are digging their own graves..

we must let the automakers go bankrupt, another company buys them out but does not sign with united autoworkers.. run it like toyota or honda or bmw factories who are successfully making cars in usa and making coin. this is the only way.

you=retard. Union workers make up LESS than 10% of the US workforce.

Wages and benefits are a very small part of the cost of a car. Funny how you aren't calling for the top magement to take a pay cut. WETF do they do? Not much since they ar running their companies into the ground.

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by IllTestYourGirls

Those jobs are going to be lost no matter what. What are all these people going to make? Who is going to buy it? Sure keep making cars no one is going to buy and just park them on Detroit streets for the homeless to live in.

enjoy your negative attitude in the soup lines.

[TyroneGoldberg]

it's always the union fault....it's funny how other countries with unions doesn't have these problems...

[2012]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LapTCFp6ZVQ

[pornask]

Originally Posted by MetaMan

is it just me or does everything seem way to planned? i for some reason feel a new world order coming on and i hope to god i am wrong.

They've already put their man Barack Obama in the office to make it happen. He was sponsored by the bankers and corporation who have foremost interest in this.

They've done their part and secured the office for him. He'll be expected to return the favor once he takes over. If he doesn't comply (I doubt he won't, he's genuinely evil) they will eliminate him like every other president or senator that was "in the way".