I want to kill our programmer, calm me down

[jcsike]

We hired this programmer about 4 months ago for a job that was about 7k total. Database/admin/api. It was set so that 3 things would get done about 2 weeks apart, so for a total of 6 weeks.

At this point, nothing is done yet that we can use, and we get a vague, ?it will get done tonight? but that has been happening for weeks. He seems to have a lot done and my guess is that its 80% there, as Ive looked at the code and it looks like it makes sense. The thing is we need it done now and every day its just a little longer. Im ready to cut this guy off and use somebody else, but we already paid him 4k and he is sort of holding us hostage. Hes a nice guy and always answers his phone, its just I don?t think hes made any deadlines and its driving me crazy

i have not gone through this much stress in some time. should we pull the code from him and give it to somebody else to finish?

[missipissi]

Unless the code is well documented it might be more trouble than it's worth.

[drocd]

Hit me on ICQ I'd like to try to help.

[Ozarkz]

Why do people let things happen for "Weeks" If the programmer or designer does not make the first deadline cut him off.
And you pay in parts as stuff is completed. SMALL PARTS!

[gunsmoke]

sounds like he was paying in milestones, but alot of milestones were set with no promised deliverables.

[2012]

[MaDalton]

all programmers and designers must have 20 uncles, aunts, grandparents etc. and they die like flies - thats my experience


not counting the various car accidents their friends have

[seeandsee]

Originally Posted by fartfly

[Bro Media - BANNED FOR LIFE]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

all programmers and designers must have 20 uncles, aunts, grandparents etc. and they die like flies - thats my experience


not counting the various car accidents their friends have

I've never used one of those excuses...

I agree with the fake nick above, after the first deadline is missed, cut them off.

[HorseShit]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

all programmers and designers must have 20 uncles, aunts, grandparents etc. and they die like flies - thats my experience


not counting the various car accidents their friends have

you are so blind, they were lying to you

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by jdavis

you are so blind, they were lying to you

[HorseShit]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

[Fletch XXX]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

all designers

that should say, "all the designers Ive used"

because certainly there are many of us not only known for our promptness, but professional communication and project scheduling.

If you are dealing with flaky designers, whos fault is it?

To put all designers in that frame is unjust to those who actually have often done same day delivery (me) for multiple clients for years... some have orderd a few galleries, some a banner - either way, we are not all flakes, THAT IS THE ONLY FACT here.

[jcsike]

Originally Posted by Ozarkz

Why do people let things happen for "Weeks" If the programmer or designer does not make the first deadline cut him off.
And you pay in parts as stuff is completed. SMALL PARTS!

it took like a month of back and forth before he knew what we wanted, then by then you invest so much time, and so does the programmer, that it just makes sense to want to finish it through

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Fletch XXX

that should say, "all the designers Ive used"

because certainly there are many of us not only known for our promptness, but professional communication and project scheduling.

If you are dealing with flaky designers, whos fault is it?

To put all designers in that frame is unjust to those who actually have often done same day delivery (me) for multiple clients for years... some have orderd a few galleries, some a banner - either way, we are not all flakes, THAT IS THE ONLY FACT here.

ok, ok, i apologize and stand corrected: most of the designers i (tried) to work with in the past

[collegeboobies]

well a lawyer can help you out

[Fletch XXX]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

most of the designers i (tried) to work with in the past

hehehe nice, see that way of saying it, even gives slight props to "some" of those who maybe worked for you and DID a better job than those slackers!

i know there are plenty of lazy people out there, but those who treat this like a real business know:

1. communication is key
2. be prompt with email replies
3. keep a notebook of your work, write details and specs regarding the order down so you effectively keep projects on course
4. always go above and beyond what the client may want
5. do whatever it takes to keep them coming back again

design business is simple, if you notice there are many of us who dont have mental breakdowns on GFY, we dont come to GFY with our personal life, we do our work, we play on GFY and we live our life.

thats speaking for me i suppose... ive never been like other people though.

[jwerd]

Originally Posted by jcsike

We hired this programmer about 4 months ago for a job that was about 7k total. Database/admin/api. It was set so that 3 things would get done about 2 weeks apart, so for a total of 6 weeks.

At this point, nothing is done yet that we can use, and we get a vague, ?it will get done tonight? but that has been happening for weeks. He seems to have a lot done and my guess is that its 80% there, as Ive looked at the code and it looks like it makes sense. The thing is we need it done now and every day its just a little longer. Im ready to cut this guy off and use somebody else, but we already paid him 4k and he is sort of holding us hostage. Hes a nice guy and always answers his phone, its just I don?t think hes made any deadlines and its driving me crazy

i have not gone through this much stress in some time. should we pull the code from him and give it to somebody else to finish?

Sounds amateur. I used to use that line, but that was years back when I didn't know my shit and thought I did. The best thing to do with him if he's sort of "holding the keys" to getting this done is to work with him on a time frame, and tell him, "I know you can't get this done tonight, so what is a logical timeframe that we can give you to see this thing done and over with?" "we need it by this date... What date can we see this all working?"

It will make him feel a little more secure about delivering and he won't jump towards the "I'll do it tonight" spiel

[V_RocKs]

This is why I use Elance.

I can setup milestones with prices for them...

So basic layout of the project $250... day 2
Setup of the DB schema $100... day 3
Signin system for DB connection $150 day 5

etc... So the entire thing = $7000

Then each time he hits a milestone he gets paid the set amount. If he stops and doesn't hit the next milestone by the allotted time I can dump him and request someone else. Then they can jump in and have access to all of our notes and get caught up within a few hours and go from there.

[webair]

breath in breath out

[Ozarkz]

Originally Posted by jcsike

it took like a month of back and forth before he knew what we wanted, then by then you invest so much time, and so does the programmer, that it just makes sense to want to finish it through

You are right it's not as simple as just cutting them off. It's not easy.

[xsabn]

i know the feeling ..

[dready]

Been there more than once.

[EscortBiz]

once a programmer goes to shit nothing will help, move on and thank me later, ive tried giving programmers bonuses etc nothing helped they suffer seriously from procrastination and there is nothing to it, treat them like a bottle of milk know they all have a short shelf life get whatever you can get out of them and the moment you smell anything sour trash them, they will never become better

when people hire programmers we all go thru the same thing, first few days guy is fast, amazing, things you thought should take a programmer a week to do he does it in an hour you start blabbling to everyone how lucky you are to have such a expert programmer but right about then the programmer starts with excuses and how hes debugging stuff etc and did the work but didnt upload it and all of a sudden minor things take weeks that turn into months and years if you dont cut it off RIGHT AWAY!

[Azoy?]

Originally Posted by jcsike

We hired this programmer about 4 months ago for a job that was about 7k total. Database/admin/api. It was set so that 3 things would get done about 2 weeks apart, so for a total of 6 weeks.

At this point, nothing is done yet that we can use, and we get a vague, ?it will get done tonight? but that has been happening for weeks. He seems to have a lot done and my guess is that its 80% there, as Ive looked at the code and it looks like it makes sense. The thing is we need it done now and every day its just a little longer. Im ready to cut this guy off and use somebody else, but we already paid him 4k and he is sort of holding us hostage. Hes a nice guy and always answers his phone, its just I don?t think hes made any deadlines and its driving me crazy

i have not gone through this much stress in some time. should we pull the code from him and give it to somebody else to finish?

What do you mean hold you hostage ? Get the code and give it to someone else who can finish it for you on time. seriously no joke. Get a copy of the code that you want to review and then when it's in your hands tell him goodbye and if he threatens to sue you. Tell him to go ahead as you will sue him back for breach of contract and lost revenue due to his negligent work.

Then ask him to sit down in the room and hold a gun to his head. Just before you pop the mother fucker, read this to him. Classic line from Pulp Fiction to read to someone before you blast their cap off.

There's a passage I got memorized,
seems appropriate for this
situation: Ezekiel 25:17. "The path
of the righteous man is beset on
all sides by the inequities of the
selfish and the tyranny of evil
men. Blessed is he who, in the
name of charity and good will,
shepherds the weak through the
valley of darkness, for he is truly
his brother's keeper and the finder
of lost children. And I will
strike down upon thee with great
vengeance and furious anger those
who attempt to poison and destroy
my brothers. And you will know my
name is the Lord when I lay my
vengeance upon you."

[EscortBiz]

if you are new to dealing with programmers ill write your next post for you

"programmer hit me up he admitted he slacked off he was dealing with family issues, hes a really good programmer and almost done, tonight he will work non stop and get it done once and for all, thanks everyone"

fast forward 6 months later your new post

Title: arent there any good programmers out there

my point is move the heck on hes done dont care what his story is

[k0nr4d]

Its quite hard to work on other peoples code sometimes, I would try as hard as possible to stick to the one coder because if you start bringing in other people the code will start to look like spaghetti.

[tranza]

Thats a serious shit...bad to hear that...

[Brujah]

I don't think I'd give up on this one yet. Keep communicating and get him to schedule a block of time to get some more of it finished. I think some designers and coders find windows of clarity and progress and go through periods of creative block. It can seem lazy if you haven't experienced it yourself. Especially after you've written thousands of lines of code and realize you missed something or need to rewrite blocks of code after debugging/security/testing.

[Kron]

Originally Posted by missipissi

Unless the code is well documented it might be more trouble than it's worth.

this is good advice

[teg0]

Im a workaholic and always try to surprise clients by getting things done ahead of schedule. Also force programmers that are doing web development to work in an enviroment where you can see the progress. Don't let them work locally on their system. That way they can't say they are working, but not have to show you.

[sex69]

Communication is the key, try to speak to him and convince him to put more effort on the project, how badly you need it done... If you find another programer to do the job he will need to start from scratch.

[jcsike]

Originally Posted by Brujah

I don't think I'd give up on this one yet. Keep communicating and get him to schedule a block of time to get some more of it finished. I think some designers and coders find windows of clarity and progress and go through periods of creative block. It can seem lazy if you haven't experienced it yourself. Especially after you've written thousands of lines of code and realize you missed something or need to rewrite blocks of code after debugging/security/testing.

good post, hope this is the case

[LoveSandra]

Originally Posted by Ozarkz

Why do people let things happen for "Weeks" If the programmer or designer does not make the first deadline cut him off.
And you pay in parts as stuff is completed. SMALL PARTS!

[Bro Media - BANNED FOR LIFE]

Originally Posted by k0nr4d

Its quite hard to work on other peoples code sometimes, I would try as hard as possible to stick to the one coder because if you start bringing in other people the code will start to look like spaghetti.

[buran]

Speaking as a programmer who's worked in this industry for more than ten years, I can tell you the answer is already in this thread. Set milestones, pay them when they hit it. If they're not getting money unless they meet the goals, then they will.

As for where you are at now, first assess the state of the code. Can you understand (roughly) what's going on? Are there comments in the code ( lines starting with // or sections enclosed in /* comments */ typically).

If there's comments or the code is reasonably understandable, you'll be OK moving it to an experienced programmer. Set a hard deadline and tell him he won't be paid if it's not met.

I think a competent programmer will hit deadlines, as long as they had a hand in setting the timeframes. Make sure that at each stage of development you can see the progress and test it for bugs.

Good luck!

Buran

[gornyhuy]

The right answer is to send me the money, but I have to let you know right now that my grandmother is at the hospital for a routine check up and my brother is a junkie but he's got it totally under control and my cat likes to eat rat poison, but I always put it on the top shelf. So, nothing should go wrong!

[borked]

Originally Posted by V_RocKs

This is why I use Elance.

I can setup milestones with prices for them...

So basic layout of the project $250... day 2
Setup of the DB schema $100... day 3
Signin system for DB connection $150 day 5

etc... So the entire thing = $7000

Then each time he hits a milestone he gets paid the set amount. If he stops and doesn't hit the next milestone by the allotted time I can dump him and request someone else. Then they can jump in and have access to all of our notes and get caught up within a few hours and go from there.

Exactly

For large projects, all my consultations are written out indicating times and cost for each milestone. And yes, the person wanting the work done spells out their milestones, but I break that down into programming milestones, because I know where the difficult bits will be that take time.

However, I do take those difficult bits and flow over the time into the previous 'easy' bit, so that in the end, the accumulated time is always more or less spot on.

That way, the client knows where the cruxes are, the possible problems that may or may not be solvable easily (and if not easily, the extra cost etc) and all is up front.

I will never take on a big project without this kind of consultation, because more often than not, the client has no idea about the difficulties in programming the steps, so they then see where things can go rapidly or slowly and there are no shocks on either side.

[CybermedAndy]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

all programmers and designers must have 20 uncles, aunts, grandparents etc. and they die like flies - thats my experience


not counting the various car accidents their friends have

Lol more true words have never been spoken

[jcsike]

hi guys, i wanted to give everyone an update. This thread got me to have a close friend of mine who is an amazing programmer look at the code and he told me it was shit. i then hired that guy for a % of rev once he built his system/admin, then he would license it to us for a %. Very good guy and a long time friend of mine.

he promised it would be done by april 1st. the database, admin, functions, are all written, you can login to it, looks great, almost done and its been that way for 3 weeks. there is 1 or 2 things that need to be completed and tested before its out and there has been 0 traction/progress and the need for this is time critical. His GF went nuts apparently and he has been hard to reach and flakey. a few days ago he told me he needed to hire a ui/php programmer to help with the integration of a few parts with the interface.

couldnt get ahold of him all day.

if we jump from this guy, it would be to nothing less than a reputable firm and we will pay whatever premium in order to get it done right, quickly and finally finish it.

i am so pissed right now, this has been a disaster.

[HomerSimpson]

I would really like to see what have you paid $7k for at the end...

[FlexxAeon]

Originally Posted by jcsike

hi guys, i wanted to give everyone an update. This thread got me to have a close friend of mine who is an amazing programmer look at the code and he told me it was shit. i then hired that guy for a % of rev once he built his system/admin, then he would license it to us for a %. Very good guy and a long time friend of mine.

he promised it would be done by april 1st. the database, admin, functions, are all written, you can login to it, looks great, almost done and its been that way for 3 weeks. there is 1 or 2 things that need to be completed and tested before its out and there has been 0 traction/progress and the need for this is time critical. His GF went nuts apparently and he has been hard to reach and flakey. a few days ago he told me he needed to hire a ui/php programmer to help with the integration of a few parts with the interface.

couldnt get ahold of him all day.

if we jump from this guy, it would be to nothing less than a reputable firm and we will pay whatever premium in order to get it done right, quickly and finally finish it.

i am so pissed right now, this has been a disaster.

lol this sounds familiar. i got a contract job through robert half (some of you freelancers out there surely know of them) doing flash/actionsctipt ads for a startup. the company had already used RH to hire their main developer who had been dicking them around on their new site and delaying their launch with the same excuses as in your original post. eventually the owner got fed up, fired the guy, and they asked me to look at his code. it hurt to have to tell them "you have nothing. we're be starting from scratch"

while i spent the next month busting 18 hour shifts, they were still using RH to try and hire people to help me. they got hosed 7/10 times when RH sent someone they claimed knew what they were doing but didn't.

make sure the reputable firm you go to isn't a staffing firm. they tend to use the same flaky programmers you're trying to avoid.

[prezzz]

Originally Posted by jcsike

if we jump from this guy, it would be to nothing less than a reputable firm and we will pay whatever premium in order to get it done right, quickly and finally finish it.

i am so pissed right now, this has been a disaster.

Make sure to get in touch with k0nr4d. He's usually booked up for weeks ahead, but I have yet to hear anything bad about his services.

[EscortBiz]

this is very typical

[d-null]

good programming is like an artform, and you should never rush an artist.... the great ones might procrastinate and come up with excuses for weeks and then all of the sudden burn through the most of the project in one crazed 48 hours of next to no sleep

setting your own deadlines on other people's work and promises is almost always a guarantee of stress

[jcsike]

Originally Posted by d-null

you should never rush an artist.... the great ones might procrastinate and come up with excuses for weeks and then all of the sudden burn through the most of the project in one crazed 48 hours of next to no sleep

dont need great, ill settle for good but reliable ;)


as for the question of what we got for the first programmer, we got nothing usable and wrote it off

[Varius]

This might not be your case, but generally, you get what you pay for and the people complaining just aren't willing to pay the going rate for quality work.

I know when I used to freelance, people would often balk at hourly rates of $100 - $300 depending on the task. These are often the same people who end up paying unreliable and unqualified programmers $20-$50 an hour, getting a horrible job done (or not done) and losing out on a lot more than a few hundred bucks (especially when time is money).

Can you find more affordable programmers who are reliable and who do solid work? Yes, but chances are, they have more than enough workload already.

[borked]

Originally Posted by jcsike

if we jump from this guy, it would be to nothing less than a reputable firm and we will pay whatever premium in order to get it done right, quickly and finally finish it.

THen hit up John @ AdultBoost
Email: [email protected] ICQ# 149824370
http://adultboost.com/

[EscortBiz]

Originally Posted by d-null

good programming is like an artform, and you should never rush an artist.... the great ones might procrastinate and come up with excuses for weeks and then all of the sudden burn through the most of the project in one crazed 48 hours of next to no sleep

setting your own deadlines on other people's work and promises is almost always a guarantee of stress

are you kidding me? the whole world works on deadlines, giving open deadlines = you will have a heart attack

and no a programmer needs to give updates and work, this is a fast moving world, why hope he will do the project in 48 hours once hes done pushing shit off, fuck him!

Guys here is how to work with people if you want to get anywhere on this planet

Strike one and your out, everyone who misses one deadline will give you problems in the future just move the fuck on

this is what I told the thread started 4 months ago

"once a programmer goes to shit nothing will help, move on and thank me later, ive tried giving programmers bonuses etc nothing helped they suffer seriously from procrastination and there is nothing to it, treat them like a bottle of milk know they all have a short shelf life get whatever you can get out of them and the moment you smell anything sour trash them, they will never become better"

guys dont listen to this art crap bullshit, give deadlines and the guy misses by one minute move the fuck on

[EscortBiz]

Originally Posted by Varius

This might not be your case, but generally, you get what you pay for and the people complaining just aren't willing to pay the going rate for quality work.

I know when I used to freelance, people would often balk at hourly rates of $100 - $300 depending on the task. These are often the same people who end up paying unreliable and unqualified programmers $20-$50 an hour, getting a horrible job done (or not done) and losing out on a lot more than a few hundred bucks (especially when time is money).

Can you find more affordable programmers who are reliable and who do solid work? Yes, but chances are, they have more than enough workload already.

bullshit plenty of expensive guys are junk, I have no limit what ill pay a solid good quick programmer and have met many good ones, but we all know even the best ones turn into junk or we would all still have our very first designer and programmer.

guys remember EVERYONE is replaceable and the very minute you hear an excuse dont get mad simply move on that very second, you will get way more shit done that way,