Government Health Care Not Good Enough for Government Bureaucrats in the UK

[cykoe6]

Cue the NHS apologists claiming that The Times is just a right wing tabloid.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6879553.ece

3,000 NHS staff get private care

THE National Health Service has spent £1.5m paying for hundreds of its staff to have private health treatment so they can leapfrog their own waiting lists.

More than 3,000 staff, including doctors and nurses, have gone private at the taxpayers? expense in the past three years because the queues at the clinics and hospitals where they work are too long.......


?It simply isn?t fair to have one service for staff and another for everyone else,? said Norman Lamb, the Liberal Democrat health spokesman, who obtained the figures.
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?If the NHS has to circumvent their own waiting lists the system isn?t working well enough. It?s an admission by the NHS that their own system isn?t able to respond to the mass of people desperate to get back to work.?

Remember under socialism everyone is equal......... but some are more equal than others.

[Cherry7]

Remember that Capitalism will let people without insurance die in the street like dogs...

[punkpred]

Originally Posted by Cherry7

Remember that Capitalism will let people without insurance die in the street like dogs...

[cykoe6]

Originally Posted by Cherry7

Remember that Capitalism will let people without insurance die in the street like dogs...

Unlike in socialism where they die in an orderly fashion in the Gulag underneath a portrait of the Dear Leader.

[Cherry7]

Not in the socialist country I lived in for 5 years, and none of my friends who lived their lives in a socialist country until the end of the cold war.

Also NOT true in Britain where we have a health service Americans can only dream of.

Rupert Murdoch's Times and FOX news represent the interests of the 1% of the pop of super rich...

If you don't understand that you understand nothing

[The Demon]

You just gotta love the retarded generalizations clueless people are spewing.

[Cherry7]

Originally Posted by The Demon

You just gotta love the retarded generalizations clueless people are spewing.

Exactly what you don't seem to be able to do, use logic and facts, just name calling.

[cykoe6]

Originally Posted by Cherry7

Exactly what you don't seem to be able to do, use logic and facts, just name calling.

We agree on this. You may be unreformed Marxist but at least you have a coherent position and know why you believe it. Most of the idiots around here are completely clueless and barely educated simpletons who mindlessly regurgitate platitudes and soundbites from the evening news with out the faintest idea of what any of it means.

[Sly]

Originally Posted by Cherry7

Remember that Capitalism will let people without insurance die in the street like dogs...

What capitalist country does this happen in?

Surely you aren't claiming that the other party is using propaganda while you throw out statements like this.

[Hentaikid]

1) Makes sense to fix the people who do the fixing faster, so they can get back to work making the waiting lists shorter
2) Public and private are two options available
3) Public and private are mixed, use the same facilities, etc, there's a synergy.

The motivation of public healthcare is to heal, methods are secondary. The motivation of your insurance company is the bottom line, leaving you out in the cold is the ideal option.

[Cherry7]

Originally Posted by Sly

What capitalist country does this happen in?

Surely you aren't claiming that the other party is using propaganda while you throw out statements like this.

In the ones without a state run national health service....

The USA for starters....

[Cherry7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_..._United_States

Active debate about health care reform in the United States concerns questions of a right to health care, access, fairness, efficiency, cost, and quality. Many have argued that the system does not deliver equivalent value for the money spent. The US pays twice as much yet lags other wealthy nations in such measures as infant mortality and life expectancy. Currently the U.S. has a higher infant mortality rate than most of the world's industrialized nations.[nb 1][14] The USA's life expectancy lags 42nd in the world, after most rich nations, lagging last of the G5 (Japan, France, Germany, UK, USA) and just after Chile (35th) and Cuba (37th).[15][16][17][18][19] The World Health Organization (WHO), in 2000, ranked the U.S. health care system as the highest in cost, first in responsiveness, 37th in overall performance, and 72nd by overall level of health (among 191 member nations included in the study).[20][21] A 2008 report by the Commonwealth Fund ranked the United States last in the quality of health care among the 19 compared countries.[22]

[Cherry7]

According to the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences, the United States is the "only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not ensure that all citizens have coverage" (i.e. some kind of insurance).[23][24] The same Institute of Medicine report notes that "Lack of health insurance causes roughly 18,000 unnecessary deaths every year in the United States." [23] while a 2009 Harvard study published in the American Journal of Public Health found a much higher figure of more than 44,800 excess deaths annually in the United States due to Americans lacking health insurance.[25][26] More broadly, the total number of people in the United States, whether insured or uninsured, who die because of lack of medical care was estimated in a 1997 analysis to be nearly 100,000 per year

[The Demon]

Originally Posted by Cherry7

Exactly what you don't seem to be able to do, use logic and facts, just name calling.

Says the moron who makes baseless assertions

[BlackCrayon]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the US system as it is now still has waiting lists.

[The Demon]

I have yet to hear any argument other than "Well everyone has healthcare", in regards to favoring universal healthcare. THe rest of the nonsense happens to have no causation and for the most part, no correlation between health care systems and standards of living.

[theking]

Originally Posted by Cherry7

Remember that Capitalism will let people without insurance die in the street like dogs...

One hundred percent bullshit...if you are refering to the USA. Every single person in the US...including illegals...receives medical care...with or without insurance...if they need medical care.

[The Demon]

Originally Posted by theking

One hundred percent bullshit...if you are refering to the USA. Every single person in the US...including illegals...receives medical care...with or without insurance...if they need medical care.

Amen. Gotta love bullshit propaganda from the ignorant.

[fatfoo]

Originally Posted by cykoe6

Remember under socialism everyone is equal......... but some are more equal than others.

That reminds me of the quote from the book Animal Farm.
The pigs said, "All animals are equal. But some are more equal than others."

[kane]

Originally Posted by theking

One hundred percent bullshit...if you are refering to the USA. Every single person in the US...including illegals...receives medical care...with or without insurance...if they need medical care.

To some degree. You can get emergency care, but maybe not much more than that. For example I read a story a few months back about a woman who lost her job then found out she had cancer. Her fiancee couldn't put her on his health insurance because her cancer was now a preexisting condition. She got some immediate care, but they would not give her radiation or any other treatment unless she paid for it.

Eventually she was able to find a non-profit group to help with some of the costs and she and her fiancee sold pretty much everything they had to help with the other costs. Had she not found this group or not been able to raise the money she probably would have died because she couldn't afford the care.

[theking]

Originally Posted by kane

To some degree. You can get emergency care, but maybe not much more than that. For example I read a story a few months back about a woman who lost her job then found out she had cancer. Her fiancee couldn't put her on his health insurance because her cancer was now a preexisting condition. She got some immediate care, but they would not give her radiation or any other treatment unless she paid for it.

Eventually she was able to find a non-profit group to help with some of the costs and she and her fiancee sold pretty much everything they had to help with the other costs. Had she not found this group or not been able to raise the money she probably would have died because she couldn't afford the care.

I hear about such stories from time to time but take them with a grain of salt (something is left out of the story) because the truth really is one can receive treatment for virtually any illness...with or without private insurance.

[Brujah]

Originally Posted by theking

One hundred percent bullshit...if you are refering to the USA. Every single person in the US...including illegals...receives medical care...with or without insurance...if they need medical care.

Cherry7 already posted the facts. Respond with facts.

According to the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences, the United States is the "only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not ensure that all citizens have coverage" (i.e. some kind of insurance).

The same Institute of Medicine report notes that "Lack of health insurance causes roughly 18,000 unnecessary deaths every year in the United States." while a 2009 Harvard study published in the American Journal of Public Health found a much higher figure of more than 44,800 excess deaths annually in the United States due to Americans lacking health insurance.

More broadly, the total number of people in the United States, whether insured or uninsured, who die because of lack of medical care was estimated in a 1997 analysis to be nearly 100,000 per year

[dial]

Originally Posted by theking

One hundred percent bullshit...if you are refering to the USA. Every single person in the US...including illegals...receives medical care...with or without insurance...if they need medical care.

I don't have health care. I have an emergency room down the street that will take care of me, sure, but won't go further than letting me sit there for a few hours and shoving some pills down my throat.

I have tried to get government assistance, but have been told I am either too young or too old.

tell me oh wise one, what is a broke 35 year old in a small town with no jobs supposed to do?

don't worry though, I am up on federal conspiracy charges right now, in 6 months I will have all the health and dental I can handle courtesy of bop.gov

[theking]

Originally Posted by Brujah

Cherry7 already posted the facts. Respond with facts.

According to the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences, the United States is the "only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not ensure that all citizens have coverage" (i.e. some kind of insurance).

The same Institute of Medicine report notes that "Lack of health insurance causes roughly 18,000 unnecessary deaths every year in the United States." while a 2009 Harvard study published in the American Journal of Public Health found a much higher figure of more than 44,800 excess deaths annually in the United States due to Americans lacking health insurance.

More broadly, the total number of people in the United States, whether insured or uninsured, who die because of lack of medical care was estimated in a 1997 analysis to be nearly 100,000 per year

I do not have any reason to question these numbers...but this does not have anything to do with what I posted. People with money or good private insurance can receive preventative medical care which in most cases will prolong life...poor people receiving some type of government assistent can receive preventative medical care. People that are somewhere in between that and have not practiced preventative care...for whatever their reasons...can and do receive medical care via ER's and County Hospitals and Charitable Hospitals...people are not dying in the streets because they cannot receive medical care and that is a fact.

[spunkmaster]

Originally Posted by Cherry7

In the ones without a state run national health service....

The USA for starters....

The US has a national health care system and spends more per citizen then any country on earth.

Look it up !

You didn't know that did you ?

[Cherry7]

Originally Posted by fatfoo

That reminds me of the quote from the book Animal Farm.
The pigs said, "All animals are equal. But some are more equal than others."

Please remember that this was written by George Orwell a socialist as a critic of the Soviet Union at that time.

George Orwell believed in true equality and was a socialist. Read his other books - the ones critical of capitalism. You will find he is not a support of your position

[kane]

Originally Posted by theking

I hear about such stories from time to time but take them with a grain of salt (something is left out of the story) because the truth really is one can receive treatment for virtually any illness...with or without private insurance.

I saw her story on CNN. Basically what she said is that she got laid off from her job when the company she worked for closed the office she worked in. She was engaged and would be getting married in a few months so it was not big deal. Her soon be husband would be able to add her to his insurance after they were married. The problem was they would have to wait until the next enrollment/update which was only going to be about 2 months after they were married. So she was going to not have health insurance for about 4 months. Not that big of a deal. Literally 2 weeks after getting laid off she gets really sick an goes to the doctor. After some tests she is told she has cancer (I forget which kind). They send her to a specialist who checks her out then tells her the best course of treatment. He tells her that since she has no insurance he won't treat her without a $20,000 deposit. She calls around and finds pretty much the same thing everywhere else. Her fiancee and she take all the money they had for the wedding and borrow the rest to start the treatments. It will take more than that though so she eventually finds her way to the non-profit group that helps her raise the money for the rest of the treatment.

Of course now she is married and on her husband's insurance, but they won't cover anything cancer related because it is pre-existing. So if 5 years from now the cancer comes back they get to pay for it out of pocket again.

There may be states where she could have gotten coverage. I live in one of those states where they have state run program for the very poor and sick, but she doesn't and not every state has that kind of program. I'm sure there are many more people like her who don't get treatments they need because they can't pay for them.

[Cherry7]

Originally Posted by spunkmaster

The US has a national health care system and spends more per citizen then any country on earth.

Look it up !

You didn't know that did you ?

Yes I did, it is in the quote I posted above.

All you need to do is read the thread Mr Lazy

[kane]

Originally Posted by theking

I do not have any reason to question these numbers...but this does not have anything to do with what I posted. People with money or good private insurance can receive preventative medical care which in most cases will prolong life...poor people receiving some type of government assistent can receive preventative medical care. People that are somewhere in between that and have not practiced preventative care...for whatever their reasons...can and do receive medical care via ER's and County Hospitals and Charitable Hospitals...people are not dying in the streets because they cannot receive medical care and that is a fact.

Here is something from the National Coalition for Healthcare.
http://www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml

Some interesting bullet points:

-On average, the uninsured are 9 to 10 times more likely to forgo medical care because of cost and twice as likely to have medical debt.

-The uninsured are increasingly paying ?up front? -- before services will be rendered. When they are unable to pay the full medical bill in cash at the time of service, they can be turned away except in life-threatening circumstances

-Access to an emergency room for uninsured patients does not qualify as access to coordinated care. While physicians are required to stabilize patients in an emergency, they are not required to treat the condition comprehensively.

[ztik]

Originally Posted by Cherry7

Remember that Capitalism will let people without insurance die in the street like dogs...

survival of the fittest

[kane]

Originally Posted by ztik

survival of the fittest

The question is: Is that the type of society we want to be?

[ruth]

Pffft. The NHS now sucks. Big time. The NHS could and should be great but it's a total mess with (on the whole), the wrong staff employed from the top, right the way down.

[kane]

Originally Posted by ruth

Pffft. The NHS now sucks. Big time. The NHS could and should be great but it's a total mess with (on the whole), the wrong staff employed from the top, right the way down.

Sadly it seems any government program ends up that way, bloated and poorly run.

[ruth]

Originally Posted by kane

Sadly it seems any government program ends up that way, bloated and poorly run.

Yup.

[Brujah]

Originally Posted by kane

Sadly it seems any government program ends up that way, bloated and poorly run.

Kind of like .. corporations? See all the large business failures.

[kane]

Originally Posted by Brujah

Kind of like .. corporations? See all the large business failures.

I think the thing that they both have in common is greed, but it is greed of a different type. A lot of companies get greedy and do whatever it takes to make a fast dollar even if it puts the company as a whole in danger and eventually it often comes back and bites them in the ass. With government jobs it seems like as soon as a person get hired they do whatever it takes to make sure they keep that job and nobody ever gets fired. If you can't really do the job they hire someone else to help you out and now you have two people doing a job one person should. Then nobody streamlines and it just starts to bog down. People get greedy about their position in the government entity and don't really do their job, they just cover their own ass and fight hard to make sure nothing ever changes.

[The Demon]

Yes, lets get government run insurance. Lets ignore the fact that it's totally unsustainable in our economy, and that universal healthcare is by no means the answer in ANY country. Hell, most of the foreigners I meet hate their universal healthcare.

[pornguy]

Originally Posted by Cherry7

Remember that Capitalism will let people without insurance die in the street like dogs...

interesting.. Because in the US there is ALREADY Free medical for those that can not afford.

They call it medicare and medicaid

[Cherry7]

The interesting thing about this thread is how such a terrible situation can remain unseen by the population. People dying from lack of medical care in one of the most advanced countries in the world. It shows how the media fail to show the true situation of the country, so while every American is told all the faults of other countries and how terrible Soviet Russia was, they are brainwashed into thinking they live in the best possible country.

The NHS in Britain has problems like any big organisation BUT it will see everyone and treat everyone that need help.

I broke my finger playing Volleyball, it was x-rayed and set the same day, treatment every week and exercises after COST NOTHING ( paid for by taxation) FREE AT THE POINT OF NEED.

My father with weak heart taken into hospital 3 or 4 times before he died. Given good care, medical support, home help, oxygen supply and home. ALL FREE AT THE POINT OF NEED.

The main point is, there is no need to worry if you fall ill, there is a Health Service there who is there to care for you NOT FOR PROFIT, NOT TO MAKE A BUCK. But doctors who want to practise medicine NOT busines.

[The Demon]

Yes, that's why foreigners come to America if their condition is "slightly more severe than a common cold". How's that 50% tax thing coming along?

[Cherry7]

YES if you are very rich and ill go to America, you will be cured, you'll have your own room TV etc ...

But if you are not....? and 95% of the world is not.

Where is there 50% tax?

And I would love to pay 50% tax if there was free higher education, good pensions, clean and safe cities....

Quality of life is not just the amount of dollars in the pocket...

That is why when studies are done of the happiest people in the world UK and US neo liberal countries are way down the list.

[redwhiteandblue]

The problem with socialist ideas like the NHS is that as soon as you start giving everyone something for free (or what they perceive to be free, it's not really free as taxpayers pay for it) they start taking it for granted. When they start taking it for granted they start expecting it more and more. So the NHS budget requirement gets bigger year after year. Is the population getting sicker? Probably not but people expect the NHS to be able to fix every little ailment they have in lieu of looking after themselves properly.

[Tom_PM]

Last I saw the stats, the US health care system was ranked 19th in the world.

Some people dont even understand it. They're told we are the best, #1, numero uno, and so they repeat it with full confidence.

There's no arguing with the dining room table, dont forget.

[kane]

Originally Posted by redwhiteandblue

The problem with socialist ideas like the NHS is that as soon as you start giving everyone something for free (or what they perceive to be free, it's not really free as taxpayers pay for it) they start taking it for granted. When they start taking it for granted they start expecting it more and more. So the NHS budget requirement gets bigger year after year. Is the population getting sicker? Probably not but people expect the NHS to be able to fix every little ailment they have in lieu of looking after themselves properly.

And you don't think this happens in an non NHS country like the US?

A friend of mine's wife is a nurse. She now works in a pediatric ICU, but for a few years she worked in a regular ER. There were people they saw all the time in there for every little ailment. People bring their kids in because they have a slight fever or a belly ache. People stub their toe and go in there. Many of these people have no insurance and will never pay the bill. Everytime they come in it costs the tax payers around $1200+. Would NHS fix this? Probably not. Some people overreact to everything and would still go to the ER for every little problem. The potential difference is that they are no longer running up a bill they aren't going to pay which is passed on to the next person.

Part of the reason we pay more per person for healthcare than anywhere else in the world is because we have a bunch of people who pay nothing, and those costs are passed on to those with insurnace and who do pay.