Those of you who are for government run health care need to watch this

[NetHorse]

[halfpint]

I cant complain about our government run health care over here in the UK.. Plus you still have the option of having private care if you want to pay extra for it

[Iron Fist]

Well there you go.. if you can pay for treatment... I don't see why you can't go and pay for it right away... but the arguement here is... why can't there be two tier health care.... one tier for those who can pay for it, and the other for those who can't....

I will not deny that Canada has waiting lists for pretty much everything... but its free, and that's the tradeoff I guess.

[Tom_PM]

Stossel is a rabble rousing punk, he'll fit in well at his new job on Fox. Just one half step away from entertainment tonight or other garbage tv.

At any given point any hospital ANYWHERE might have a crowded neo-natal unit. And any person suffering a head injury anywhere might need to be medivac'd to a special hospital hundreds of miles away.

I swear as it plays and I listen and watch, it's more crap after more crap. It's sensationalism, not journalism. Typical john stossel. Enjoy.

[beerptrol]

and? When I make an appointment to see my doctor it's ussually 3-4 weeks before I can get in to see him, Same thing with a specialist and my dentist. I may get in sooner if someone cancels.

[Dirty Dane]

Originally Posted by sharphead

Well there you go.. if you can pay for treatment... I don't see why you can't go and pay for it right away... but the arguement here is... why can't there be two tier health care.... one tier for those who can pay for it, and the other for those who can't....

Socialists do not like that people with money "skip the line". Even if it's better for everyone, assuming everyone also finance the public care.

Here, we have some sort of "guarantee". If the public health can't provide within a limited time, then they buy from private sector. Or even from other countries. It depends on what kind of treatments, of course.

[NetHorse]

Originally Posted by PR_Tom

Stossel is a rabble rousing punk, he'll fit in well at his new job on Fox. Just one half step away from entertainment tonight or other garbage tv.

At any given point any hospital ANYWHERE might have a crowded neo-natal unit. And any person suffering a head injury anywhere might need to be medivac'd to a special hospital hundreds of miles away.

I swear as it plays and I listen and watch, it's more crap after more crap. It's sensationalism, not journalism. Typical john stossel. Enjoy.

Don't obsess over Stossel, the people he interviews bring up valid points.

Think about it..

Try to think of one government office that runs efficiently. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? The Department of transportation? Social security administration? Department of education? There isn't a single government office that squeezes efficiency out of every dollar the way the private sector can.

Healthy people who take care of themselves will have to pay for fatasses who smoke, drink excessively, etc. With universal health care the costs will be spread to all Americans, regardless of your health or your need for medical care.

Think about the transition to universal health care. The entire health insurance industry would be unnecessary. All people employed in the industry would be out of work.

How about the quality and number of future doctors? Government jobs have mandated salaries and not a whole lot of flexibility built in to reward the best performing workers. Doctors who attract scores of patients and do the best work would be paid the same as those that perform poorly and drive patients away.

What if our government started to pass additional restrictions or increases in taxes on smoking, fast food, etc? With government-paid health care, any risky or healthy lifestyle will raise the dollar cost to ALL OF US.

Health care equipment, drugs, and services will be rationed by the government. Politicians will be making health care decisions instead of medical or economics professionals.

[Tom_PM]

You're using freddie mac and fannie mae as examples of how something "government run" fails?

Please just read this article to see why the mortgage industry ACTUALLY got screwed. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9246.html

Deregulation is what happened, in short. It's not even disputed, so opponents of health care reform just ignore that little tidbit and tell you that fannie mae failed and all this shit, like it was obama who pressed all the buttons.

[NetHorse]

Originally Posted by PR_Tom

You're using freddie mac and fannie mae as examples of how something "government run" fails?

Please just read this article to see why the mortgage industry ACTUALLY got screwed. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9246.html

Deregulation is what happened, in short. It's not even disputed,

It's just an example of how government run offices are inefficient.

so opponents of health care reform just ignore that little tidbit and tell you that fannie mae failed and all this shit, like it was obama who pressed all the buttons.

You lost me, where did I say Obama pressed all the buttons? This has nothing to do with Obama, or political party affiliation, (I have a feeling that's where you're heading). You completely missed the point of my post, go back and read it again.

[Tom_PM]

I didnt say that YOU said it, I said opponents of it say it like that because they want to lead the gullible to draw that conclusion based on the inuendo. And so now when you read that fannie mae and freddie mac are tied to the healthcare debate, you dont have to look far to know it came from opponents.. not from anything remotely neutral in this fight. It's just a dining room table/august town hall bs talking point.

Look at it this way, medicare for all. Thats it in a nutshell.

Doctors LOVE medicare just like apartment managers LOVE people getting section 8 housing benefits! It's guaranteed payment, never late. Just submit it, and whamo, it's paid on time everytime. No doctor will quit IMHO, not a single one.

[NetHorse]

Originally Posted by PR_Tom

Look at it this way, medicare for all. Thats it in a nutshell.
Doctors LOVE medicare just like apartment managers LOVE people getting section 8 housing benefits! It's guaranteed payment, never late. Just submit it, and whamo, it's paid on time everytime. No doctor will quit IMHO, not a single one.

Lets face it, here in America profit motives and competition have always led to greater cost control and effectiveness. Making doctors government workers means they have set hourly schedules, salaries with little to no promotion opportunities. Compared to the best doctors in the private sector who receive large raises, earn promotions, and work overtime. In the private sector the best performing workers are rewarded. Where is the incentive for doctors to offer the best possible care? Government workers have iron-clad job security.

BTW, I never said they would quit.

[Tom_PM]

Your premise is that doctors would be government workers. There's utterly zero evidence that anything like that would occur.

Are doctors who administer medicare workers of the gubment? no of course they arent.

BTW: why do you say that doctors who do better are rewarded? There is no incentive to keep peoepl HEALTHY, only to treat them when they get sick or injured. It's time we paid incentives to keep people from becoming patients. The end. lol

[Elli]

Originally Posted by NetHorse

Lets face it, here in America profit motives and competition have always led to greater cost control and effectiveness. Making doctors government workers means they have set hourly schedules, salaries with little to no promotion opportunities. Compared to the best doctors in the private sector who receive large raises, earn promotions, and work overtime. In the private sector the best performing workers are rewarded. Where is the incentive for doctors to offer the best possible care? Government workers have iron-clad job security.

BTW, I never said they would quit.

For the sake of the argument, where is the incentive now for a doctor to offer the best possible care? Often they can't, because the procedures are denied by the insurance agencies. They have to turn patients away, saying they cannot treat them because the insurance company won't cover it. I'd say that would be far more frustrating for the doctor (altruistically) than earning a little less money.

[NetHorse]

Originally Posted by PR_Tom

Your premise is that doctors would be government workers. There's utterly zero evidence that anything like that would occur.

If health care becomes government run who is going to pay the doctors? That's right, the government! That makes them government workers.

BTW: why do you say that doctors who do better are rewarded? There is no incentive to keep peoepl HEALTHY, only to treat them when they get sick or injured. It's time we paid incentives to keep people from becoming patients. The end. lol

Umm, because it's true? The best doctors in this country are rewarded with large raises and promotions, that's called incentive. It's not as simple as just treating people who are sick or injured. If that were the case there be no such thing as a bad doctor.

[Tom_PM]

Originally Posted by NetHorse

If health care becomes government run who is going to pay the doctors? That's right, the government! That makes them government workers.

No it doesnt. It makes them nothing different except who pays the bill. Just like today with medicare. NO difference whatsoever, lol.

[NetHorse]

Originally Posted by PR_Tom

No it doesnt. It makes them nothing different except who pays the bill. Just like today with medicare. NO difference whatsoever, lol.

What are you talking about? Doctors and surgeons don't get paid a fixed rate, they get paid based upon their experience and skills. If you think the only change with government run health care is the government will be paying instead of the private sector you're VERY VERY mistaken.

[TheDoc]

My mail always comes...and they pick it up. My VA benefits didn't stop and work like clock work, every service related to is golden and bends over backwards for you. My Dad is on SS and MC, without them he would be toast. He hasn't bitched about them once.

IRS runs damn smooth for what they have to do and deal with.

Fed services like FBI work great, call them up and see how quick they answer and if you actually have something, how fast they respond. Border Patrol? Pretty slick operation, can even work with local police/counties now..

NASA? Launching, protecting, building, growing...

You know... thinking about it, I can't name a "Corporation" that runs perfectly smooth either. Mater of fact, "I have never had a good experience when I had to call an insurance company."

[BFT3K]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

My mail always comes...and they pick it up. My VA benefits didn't stop and work like clock work, every service related to is golden and bends over backwards for you. My Dad is on SS and MC, without them he would be toast. He hasn't bitched about them once.

IRS runs damn smooth for what they have to do and deal with.

Fed services like FBI work great, call them up and see how quick they answer and if you actually have something, how fast they respond. Border Patrol? Pretty slick operation, can even work with local police/counties now..

NASA? Launching, protecting, building, growing...

You know... thinking about it, I can't name a "Corporation" that runs perfectly smooth either. Mater of fact, "I have never had a good experience when I had to call an insurance company."

[_Richard_]

video disabled, but read a article from him. Sounds fairly opinionatedly insane

[Emil]

What was the video about? I went to see a doctor in the middle of the night 2 days ago. I got in right away, didn't have to wait in line. He took a blood and a urine sample and did analyze it right away and did some routine check-up.
I paid $0 for this and also got some painkillers to go.

[halfpint]

Originally Posted by NetHorse

Don't obsess over Stossel, the people he interviews bring up valid points.

Think about it..


Healthy people who take care of themselves will have to pay for fatasses who smoke, drink excessively, etc. With universal health care the costs will be spread to all Americans, regardless of your health or your need for medical care.

Wow Nethorse you have a funny and very selfish way of looking at life

I have never begrudged paying such a little amount out of what I earn to go towards our NHS sytem over here and although I very rarely have the need to use them at least I can sleep at night knowing that they are there and I can get treatment which wont break the bank. Everybody pays into the NHS system so that means that those fat lazy people you are on about are also putting money into the system and have a right to be treated.
I dont care if I never have to use the NHS and Iv paid money into the system all of my working life, hopefully it will help somebody else who needs it more than me

I do not see why you are so against a goverment run health service and private service run along side each other it works just fine over here in the UK

[NetHorse]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

My mail always comes...and they pick it up. My VA benefits didn't stop and work like clock work, every service related to is golden and bends over backwards for you. My Dad is on SS and MC, without them he would be toast. He hasn't bitched about them once.

IRS runs damn smooth for what they have to do and deal with.

Fed services like FBI work great, call them up and see how quick they answer and if you actually have something, how fast they respond. Border Patrol? Pretty slick operation, can even work with local police/counties now..

NASA? Launching, protecting, building, growing...

You know... thinking about it, I can't name a "Corporation" that runs perfectly smooth either. Mater of fact, "I have never had a good experience when I had to call an insurance company."

I'm not talking about them answering the phone quickly..I'm talking about squeezing efficiency out of every dollar the way the private sector can.

How about the Pentagon's 14billion dollar Bradley design project that resulted in a useless transport vehicle that killed everyone inside?

You mentioned the IRS, A few years back the government published a "Tax Simplification Guide", and the guide itself was over 1,000 pages long. Do you really want all that complexity in health care?

Think about the Department of Motor Vehicles. The costs to support the department are enormous, and when was the last time you went to the DMV and didn't have to stand in line? If it can't handle things this simple, how can we expect the government to handle all the complex nuances of the medical system? If any private business failed year after year to achieve its objectives and satisfy its customers, it would go out of business or be passed up by competitors.

Originally Posted by halfpint

Wow Nethorse you have a funny and very selfish way of looking at life

I have never begrudged paying such a little amount out of what I earn to go towards our NHS sytem over here and although I very rarely have the need to use them at least I can sleep at night knowing that they are there and I can get treatment which wont break the bank. Everybody pays into the NHS system so that means that those fat lazy people you are on about are also putting money into the system and have a right to be treated.
I dont care if I never have to use the NHS and Iv paid money into the system all of my working life, hopefully it will help somebody else who needs it more than me

I do not see why you are so against a goverment run health service and private service run along side each other it works just fine over here in the UK

Taxing everyone, (especially heavily taxing the rich) to "spread the wealth" is not what this country was founded on. This isn't a socialist country, that's great it works out in the UK.

I'm also looking at the bigger picture, expenses for health care will spiral out of control eventually and funding will have to come with spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, infrastructure, etc. The national debt is RIDICULOUS right now, our government can't even manage our current situation.

Also, anyone in favor of Obama's proposed health care plan should read this..

http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/24/news...tune/index.htm

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by NetHorse

I'm not talking about them answering the phone quickly..I'm talking about squeezing efficiency out of every dollar the way the private sector can.

How about the Pentagon's 14billion dollar Bradley design project that resulted in a useless transport vehicle that killed everyone inside?

You mentioned the IRS, A few years back the government published a "Tax Simplification Guide", and the guide itself was over 1,000 pages long. Do you really want all that complexity in health care?

Think about the Department of Motor Vehicles. The costs to support the department are enormous, and when was the last time you went to the DMV and didn't have to stand in line? If it can't handle things this simple, how can we expect the government to handle all the complex nuances of the medical system? If any private business failed year after year to achieve its objectives and satisfy its customers, it would go out of business or be passed up by competitors.

People, run the Gov and many of those people own Companies or have owned them. So if the Gov is screwed up in the way it runs, then everything they are attached to, which is everything is screwed up.....

The Gov does 'Run' a few things really good.. one is Hospitals AND Supply. The problem with the VA hospitals isn't the care, it's the facilities, from a major lack of funding for so long.

The problem with Mcare/caid crap is, the private sector is ripping them off by the billions. Creating a lack of funding, to properly keep over site on such a massive problem. This must be that example of "squeezing efficiency" out of the private sector you were talking about.

Speaking of squeezing efficiency: the bank collapses, wall street, auto industry, airline industry, housing industry... Maybe Google should run America?


What about the Companies the quote bloated numbers on contracts that make it so these budgets are forced so high?


With the Pentagon's 14billion dollar Bradley design project.. it's simple, not playing with Toys like that, you end up like Canada defense wise.


I have read my health care coverage contracts and papers, it's equally as clear as our tax code. When it favors them, it's clear - if it favors you, it's not so clear.


The only time in my life I have ever stood in line at the DMV is in Vegas when like, 100's of people are in the place and it was the fastest growing city in the World at that point. I have lived in 5 other states, I have never waited more than a few minutes - maybe 10, normally Fast Food takes longer.


My count is even.... Corps fuck is, Gov is fucking us... at least with the Gov, I can attempt to hold someone accountable. With a company, I'm simply canceled, forced to call India and fucked all in one tight package. Oh - and I get a fucking invoice too!