Who hear thinks as I do

[theking]

...that in my lifetime/your life time...the US/country...in virtually every aspect...has been on the decline.

[SleazyDream]

no disrespect to my American friends but pretty much everyone outside of Americans themselves around the world I know thinks that these days....

[SleazyDream]

and it's not really cause America is declining in my opinion, it's cause everyone else is catching up or passing in one way or another.....

why move to america when it's good where you are and not any better in america?

[theking]

Damn...I did it again..."hear" instead of here. I am getting to be as bad as you with my spelling.

[Waddymelon]

Sleazy spells better than you.

[SleazyDream]

Originally Posted by Waddymelon

Sleazy spells better than you.

now THERE's An INSULT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[slapass]

Originally Posted by theking

...that in my lifetime/your life time...the US/country...in virtually every aspect...has been on the decline.

I only agree with this if you are 3 years old.

[slapass]

I do love the fact that you are a flag waving conservative who thinks this. Sort of sums up the whole culture of negativity spewed out by conservatives.

[fatfoo]

I do not like to eat poo and do not cover my face with feces.

[kane]

I would disagree. I think in some aspects we have gone down hill. We now teach to the heard more than ever before and I would say another thing we have done that could be considered bad is that parents now indulge their kids much more. When I was a kid you were taught to focus in school, work hard and learn something. As you got a little older and got into high school you were told to think about what you want to do for a living. If you said anything entertainment industry based you were told to get an education first so you had something to fall back on. Now it seems every parent is convinced their kid is going to be the next American Idol or the next Picasso. So in some ways I think our culture as a whole has declined.

I would also say that we have over-outsourced ourselves to the point that our potential economic strength has shrunk, but I would agree with Sleazy that much of this is due to other countries catching up with us. The internet has really leveled the playing field for a lot of people.

Still, I think this is a great place that is actually holding strong or on the rise. We are a country where anyone can make something of themselves. There are many countries where a kid born to a poor family will spend his life struggling to survive no matter how hard he works and tries. Here anyone can get an education and can go to college if they want and that poor kid can become a doctor or lawyer or engineer and make something of himself. We as a nation have potential. We were great in the past, right now we are average, but we can be great again. The world still looks to us for leadership, we just have to make sure we do the right things.

[theking]

Originally Posted by slapass

I do love the fact that you are a flag waving conservative who thinks this. Sort of sums up the whole culture of negativity spewed out by conservatives.

My political position has never...I repeat never...been that of a conservative. I am an independent...moderate...with liberal leanings. I am...and will remain...a flag waver.

[theking]

Originally Posted by kane

I would disagree. I think in some aspects we have gone down hill. We now teach to the heard more than ever before and I would say another thing we have done that could be considered bad is that parents now indulge their kids much more. When I was a kid you were taught to focus in school, work hard and learn something. As you got a little older and got into high school you were told to think about what you want to do for a living. If you said anything entertainment industry based you were told to get an education first so you had something to fall back on. Now it seems every parent is convinced their kid is going to be the next American Idol or the next Picasso. So in some ways I think our culture as a whole has declined.

I would also say that we have over-outsourced ourselves to the point that our potential economic strength has shrunk, but I would agree with Sleazy that much of this is due to other countries catching up with us. The internet has really leveled the playing field for a lot of people.

Still, I think this is a great place that is actually holding strong or on the rise. We are a country where anyone can make something of themselves. There are many countries where a kid born to a poor family will spend his life struggling to survive no matter how hard he works and tries. Here anyone can get an education and can go to college if they want and that poor kid can become a doctor or lawyer or engineer and make something of himself. We as a nation have potential. We were great in the past, right now we are average, but we can be great again. The world still looks to us for leadership, we just have to make sure we do the right things.

You say you disagree...then point out several aspects of decline and then also say this "We were great in the past, right now we are average". If that is not saying that the country has declined then what does it say?

I will repeat that in my lifetime I have witnessed...what I consider to be decline...in virtually every and all aspects one can think of or mention. You named a few...I will name a few more...political bipartisanship is virtually non existent...political intercourse is at an all time low...media bias is at an all time high...the economy has been in decline since the sixties...our military forces have been cut by more than half...the ills of society have increased since the fifties...education...divorce...crime...juvenile delinquency...the use of mind altering drugs...mental illness...suicides...homicides...etc. etc. etc. Bad laws...bad court decisions...bad foriegn policy...etc. etc. etc.

[kane]

Originally Posted by theking

You say you disagree...then point out several aspects of decline and then also say this "We were great in the past, right now we are average". If that is not saying that the country has declined then what does it say?

I will repeat that in my lifetime I have witnessed...what I consider to be decline...in virtually every and all aspects one can think of or mention. You named a few...I will name a few more...political bipartisanship is virtually non existent...political intercourse is at an all time low...media bias is at an all time high...the economy has been in decline since the sixties...our military forces have been cut by more than half...the ills of society have increased since the fifties...education...divorce...crime...juvenile delinquency...the use of mind altering drugs...mental illness...suicides...homicides...etc. etc. etc. Bad laws...bad court decisions...bad foriegn policy...etc. etc. etc.

I felt I pointed out a few things where we have declined, but then said I feel overall, that we have held steady or gotten better. Sure everything isn't as it was, things are different, but are they worse?

Let's talk about a few of things you point out.

1. political bipartisanship is virtually non existent and political intercourse is at an all time low - I have to agree that is seem pretty bad right now, but my entire life (I'm 38) it feels at least like it has always been this way. It seems that there has always been a situation where the party not in power fights against the group in power. I don't see a lot of decline. I see a lot of the same.

2. the ills of society have increased since the fifties...education...divorce...crime...juvenile delinquency-

3.education : while I think the overall quality of the schools may have declined, the general quality of the education is pretty good and has gotten better for many kids. For example, a friend of mine's daughter is in 7th grade and is doing Algebra. I didn't get that until I was a senior in high school and it wasn't even available for me to take until at least my sophomore year in high school. Kids are learning more at an earlier age today than ever before. Add in the internet and kids have more knowledge available to them now then ever before.

4.divorce: on the rise, but I would argue in the 50's at least half the people out there were in miserable marriages that they would have loved to have gotten out of, but since divorce was not socially acceptable, they stayed. If divorced were as accepted in the 50's as it is today I think the rate would be just as high. Also, add in that in the 50's many women didn't work and many jobs would discriminate against women so they had much less opportunity to support themselves and had to stay in their miserable marriages just to survive. today you can tell your daughter that she can be anything she wants and you can mean it. If you told your daughter she could be anything she wants in 1950, you would be lying to her.

5.crime: I guess it depends on what type of crime. The murder rate today is lower than it has been since the early 60's. Violent crimes have been on a steady decrease since the 70's. Identity theft is on the rise, but other crimes are on the decline.
Here is some info on that
http://www.prisonandjail.org/bjs//glance/viort.htm
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0873729.html

6.juvenile delinquency: I have to agree with this one. Kids do seem to be more self absorbed then in the past (one of the things I mentioned in my original post) and they seem to have a lot less respect for other people's property.

7.Bad laws & bad court decisions : There have always been bad laws and always will be bad laws. I don't see it as worse today than in the past. The same can be said with court decisions.

8.the economy has been in decline since the sixties - Not true. The economy has been on a slow steady rise since the end of the depression. We have had recessions, but the overall GDP of the nation has been on the rise. The stock market has gone up, home prices have increase, wages have increased. So the economy has been on a steady rise, until the last few years.

9.media bias is at an all time high: just plain wrong. for years, make that decades, there were media outlets that just flat out lied and spun every news story how they wanted it to be spun and they took payoffs from companies, people and the government to print these lies. I'm not saying it is great today and without bias, but today the media is a lot cleaner than it has been in the past.

10.our military forces have been cut by more than half: there are a few reasons for this. 1. people have more access to education now than ever before so they choose to go to college as opposed to join the military. 2. the economy has been on the rise. During economic bad times people join the military because it is a sure thing. When it is going well, they look at other options. 3. The government has slimmed it down. New technology has made it so that they don't need as many people. With the current technology one guy can do a job that it used to take many more to do so we don't need as many. Sure, we are feeling some strains right now, but that is due to bad leadership. Had we gotten in and out of Iraq in 1-2 years we would never have heard anything about not having enough soldiers.


Here are a few things that have happened since the 50's

Brown V Board of Education - desegregation of schools.
Roe V Wade - right for women to choose.
The entire civil rights movement.
The bringing down of the Berlin wall.
Many advances in medicine.
We elected a black president - like or hate the guy, it was a big moment for this country.
and I'm sure there are many others.

A person could easily look around and be jaded and say everything sucks and the country is in a downward decline, but I think if you really look around just ask yourself this. Would you rather live in 1949 or 2009? Me? I take 2009 any day.

[kane]

Holy crap that is a long post I made. . .I clearly need a life

[SleazyDream]

holly fuck can you guys babble

[theking]

Originally Posted by kane

1. political bipartisanship is virtually non existent and political intercourse is at an all time low - I have to agree that is seem pretty bad right now, but my entire life (I'm 38) it feels at least like it has always been this way. It seems that there has always been a situation where the party not in power fights against the group in power. I don't see a lot of decline. I see a lot of the same.

I am in my fifties and I assure you that political bipartisanship (while never very good) did used to exist. I assure you that political intercourse (whild never very good) is at an all time low.

3.education : while I think the overall quality of the schools may have declined, the general quality of the education is pretty good and has gotten better for many kids. For example, a friend of mine's daughter is in 7th grade and is doing Algebra. I didn't get that until I was a senior in high school and it wasn't even available for me to take until at least my sophomore year in high school. Kids are learning more at an earlier age today than ever before. Add in the internet and kids have more knowledge available to them now then ever before.

The US used to be number one in education and now we are like 26th or so on the list. The drop out rate is out of control...they are graduating a high percentage of students that are functionally illiterate. The military even though it has reduced the standards for enlistment put out a report that 1 out of every 24 applicants for enlistment cannot meet their standards and are denied. This is not simply because of education/or lack therof...but is one of the standards that cannot be met. When I went to school Algebra was offered at some schools...not all...in the eigth grade and almost all Highschools it was offered to freshman who was taking the college prep program.

4.divorce: on the rise, but I would argue in the 50's at least half the people out there were in miserable marriages that they would have loved to have gotten out of, but since divorce was not socially acceptable, they stayed. If divorced were as accepted in the 50's as it is today I think the rate would be just as high. Also, add in that in the 50's many women didn't work and many jobs would discriminate against women so they had much less opportunity to support themselves and had to stay in their miserable marriages just to survive. today you can tell your daughter that she can be anything she wants and you can mean it. If you told your daughter she could be anything she wants in 1950, you would be lying to her.

In the fifties it was near impossible to get a divorce...the courts changed laws and now if both parties agree to a divorce one does not even have to present a reason for divorce. The majority of children then were better off and would still be better off with a two parent home than a one parent home...a multiple parent home...and now in many cases a no parent home. The proof is in the pudding.

5.crime: I guess it depends on what type of crime. The murder rate today is lower than it has been since the early 60's. Violent crimes have been on a steady decrease since the 70's. Identity theft is on the rise, but other crimes are on the decline.
Here is some info on that
http://www.prisonandjail.org/bjs//glance/viort.htm
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0873729.html

Crime of every type is many times higher than it was in the fifties and really does not matter that some crimes may be one the decline in the last few years.

6.juvenile delinquency: I have to agree with this one. Kids do seem to be more self absorbed then in the past (one of the things I mentioned in my original post) and they seem to have a lot less respect for other people's property.

Juvenile delinquency has been on the rise since the courts decided to change the divorce laws.

7.Bad laws & bad court decisions : There have always been bad laws and always will be bad laws. I don't see it as worse today than in the past. The same can be said with court decisions.

There has been bad laws and bad court decisions through out our history but it continues and somewhat exponentialy...at the least it is continuing to be compounded.

8.the economy has been in decline since the sixties - Not true. The economy has been on a slow steady rise since the end of the depression. We have had recessions, but the overall GDP of the nation has been on the rise. The stock market has gone up, home prices have increase, wages have increased. So the economy has been on a steady rise, until the last few years.

In the fifties an average individual worker could support a wife...two children...buy a new home...furnish that home with the latest modern conveniences...buy a new car...meet all other responsbilities...take vacations...have hobbies...and a savings account. Now it requires two average workers to accomplish the same thing.

9.media bias is at an all time high: just plain wrong. for years, make that decades, there were media outlets that just flat out lied and spun every news story how they wanted it to be spun and they took payoffs from companies, people and the government to print these lies. I'm not saying it is great today and without bias, but today the media is a lot cleaner than it has been in the past.

In the fifties straight news was reported...not gossip...no speculation...no talking heads...no political bias...and cost the networks money to have a news outlet. News is now all biased...gossip...speculation...talking heads...and designed to be entertainment and now makes the networks money...because of this.

10.our military forces have been cut by more than half: there are a few reasons for this. 1. people have more access to education now than ever before so they choose to go to college as opposed to join the military. 2. the economy has been on the rise. During economic bad times people join the military because it is a sure thing. When it is going well, they look at other options. 3. The government has slimmed it down. New technology has made it so that they don't need as many people. With the current technology one guy can do a job that it used to take many more to do so we don't need as many. Sure, we are feeling some strains right now, but that is due to bad leadership. Had we gotten in and out of Iraq in 1-2 years we would never have heard anything about not having enough soldiers.

Our military forces can barely keep forces in what has never been a war either in Afghanistan or Iraq. These are two...two bit conflicts in two third world countries...one without an Army and the other once had a two bit Army.


Here are a few things that have happened since the 50's

Brown V Board of Education - desegregation of schools.
Roe V Wade - right for women to choose.
The entire civil rights movement.
The bringing down of the Berlin wall.
Many advances in medicine.
We elected a black president - like or hate the guy, it was a big moment for this country.
and I'm sure there are many others.

A person could easily look around and be jaded and say everything sucks and the country is in a downward decline, but I think if you really look around just ask yourself this. Would you rather live in 1949 or 2009? Me? I take 2009 any day.

The things that I have spoke about...does not affect me...or my life style...out side of my health I am fine...but I do not view the country as being fine.

BTW...lest you get confused my responses are inside your post.

[kane]

Originally Posted by theking

The things that I have spoke about...does not affect me...or my life style...out side of my health I am fine...but I do not view the country as being fine.

BTW...lest you get confused my responses are inside your post.

While I think you make some valid points. I still disagree with some of them.

the numbers prove that crime is on the decline. It may not be in all areas, but right now violent crimes are at the lowest they have been since the late 60's. That is simple fact.

While the education system is not as great as it could be the opportunity is still there to get a good education. One of the major problems is parents apathy towards the system and not taking an interest in their kids education. I'm not saying the education system is perfect it seems illiteracy is actually on the decline. The numbers from this site show that in 1979 the illiteracy rate was 300 times lower than in 1950. According to wikipedia the rate of illiteracy in the US is now at around 1% while in 1950 it was around 3.2%. That seems like an improvement to me.

I still believe that if divorce were as readily available in the 50's as it is today and opportunities for women were the same back then as now the divorce rate would be just as high. A two parent house with parents that hate each other and are miserable is not better for a kid than a one parent house. I am a product of a single parent house (my parents divorced when I was 5) and I can tell you without question my life was much better without my dad in it than it would have been with him in it. But in the 50's I would have had no choice. I would have grown up in a house where my dad was a drunk and degenerate gambler and my mom just had to put up with it. Of course you can say that my case might be the exception, but I think the exception here is pretty common. The reality is that humans are not meant to be monogamous animals, yet we try to force ourselves to be just that and we end up miserable because of it.

I will agree with you that many people now have to have both parents in a household work to have a nice life, but this is at least an option that is available today and I feel is not really a statement about the economy. Part of the problem is that people got stupid and greedy. They decided they wanted the bigger house as opposed to the house that they could actually afford. Same with the car and the furnishings and so on. Credit became more readily available than it ever was before and many people made bad decisions. When more and more people bought these things more and more people wanted them and that caused their prices to go up. That said, families being in debt or living paycheck to paycheck is nothing new in this country. The difference is that back then you could have a decent life with one person working. You still can, I know several people who work and have stay at home wives who take care of their kids and they have nice lives. I also know a lot of people where both parents work and they are in debt up to their eyes because they spend more than they should. Does this mean the economy is on the decline? No. It means that people have made bad choices for themselves. Maybe you see this as the economy on the decline, I see it as a segment of the population choosing to live outside of their means.

I think the media today is often biased, but I think there is at least enough sources out there that a person can easily get around and find the heart of any matter they are looking into. That is something that didn't exist 40-50 years ago. Read a book called the Big Bam. It is about Babe Ruth, but there is a large section in it about how there were over 150 newspapers just in New York city and to keep selling papers they would flat out lie and make stuff up. Sure, many of them died off during the depression, but that lying has been around forever. Biased news is nothing new to this country. Let's not forget Edward R Murrow who is supposed to be the pinnacle of all journalists, got pissed off at his producers if they forced him to give equal time to people who disagreed with his point of view.

While I will agree that some things are worse off, I think there are a lot of things that are just as good if not better. sure, we could improve, but again I ask. If you had the choice of living in 1949 or 2009 which would you choose? Still, for me it is 2009 without question.

[slapass]

Originally Posted by theking

You say you disagree...then point out several aspects of decline and then also say this "We were great in the past, right now we are average". If that is not saying that the country has declined then what does it say?

I will repeat that in my lifetime I have witnessed...what I consider to be decline...in virtually every and all aspects one can think of or mention. You named a few...I will name a few more...political bipartisanship is virtually non existent...political intercourse is at an all time low...media bias is at an all time high...the economy has been in decline since the sixties...our military forces have been cut by more than half...the ills of society have increased since the fifties...education...divorce...crime...juvenile delinquency...the use of mind altering drugs...mental illness...suicides...homicides...etc. etc. etc. Bad laws...bad court decisions...bad foriegn policy...etc. etc. etc.

Crime is at a many year low. Murders are down. Economy has slowed lately but our standard of living has steadily increased. Look at houses, cars, tv etc in the sixties compared to now.
Seriously this is a stupid thing to debate.

[HomerSimpson]

Originally Posted by slapass

Crime is at a many year low. Murders are down. Economy has slowed lately but our standard of living has steadily increased. Look at houses, cars, tv etc in the sixties compared to now.
Seriously this is a stupid thing to debate.

how about a dept per citizen, compared to 60's and now?
all those shiny things that we have - are bought on credit
and probably than half of them or even more are from China...

just my 2 cents...

[theking]

Originally Posted by slapass

Crime is at a many year low. Murders are down. Economy has slowed lately but our standard of living has steadily increased. Look at houses, cars, tv etc in the sixties compared to now.
Seriously this is a stupid thing to debate.

I should have said fifties instead of sixties...and it is my position that when it requires two average workers to accomplish what one average worker used to accomplish the economy has declined.

[slapass]

Originally Posted by theking

I should have said fifties instead of sixties...and it is my position that when it requires two average workers to accomplish what one average worker used to accomplish the economy has declined.

I was not around then but US productivity is much higher now then it was then. Are you saying we are lazier now? I do not think the statistics support that. The standard of living is much higher now also.

Life was a lot harder(imo) and obviously lacked technology. I cannot even imagine life without plastic.

[brassmonkey]

every decade is the same shit war

[nation-x]

I think that the government is too big and the military industrial complex (including intelligence divisions) is the elephant in the room...

They keep talking about entitlements when the great majority of our budget is spent on defense and intelligence to the point where not even the president is privy to everything that is being funded. Think about that a little. If anything needs to be audited it is the defense budget.

The basic issue is that the government has grown beyond the interest of the people and has it's own agenda for which decisions are made in all sectors of government but most importantly are unknown foreign or domestic operations that we fund... the number of operations that we fund and the effect any particular operations or regional inbalances that those operations cause directly or indirectly.

[BlackCrayon]

typically older people will always think that the days when they were in their prime the country was better off, etc.

[Matt 26z]

Originally Posted by SleazyDream

and it's not really cause America is declining in my opinion, it's cause everyone else is catching up or passing in one way or another.....

Here in the US we are indoctrinated from a very early age that the US is the greatest country in the world and that life everywhere else basically sucks. We are however becoming less of a closed society. Things like the internet and certain TV programming have over the past decade have worked to make Americans somewhat more cultured.

It is also highly taboo for an American to talk about ways that other countries are better than us. America has way too much pride for our own good. The result is that 99% of Americans turn a blind eye to the fact that so many other countries have caught up to us in terms of quality of life. They could pass right by us and these blind Americans wouldn't even notice.

[CaptainHowdy]

I don't hear anything...

[kane]

Originally Posted by Matt 26z

Here in the US we are indoctrinated from a very early age that the US is the greatest country in the world and that life everywhere else basically sucks. We are however becoming less of a closed society. Things like the internet and certain TV programming have over the past decade have worked to make Americans somewhat more cultured.

It is also highly taboo for an American to talk about ways that other countries are better than us. America has way too much pride for our own good. The result is that 99% of Americans turn a blind eye to the fact that so many other countries have caught up to us in terms of quality of life. They could pass right by us and these blind Americans wouldn't even notice.

You make a very good point. I know a ton of people who have said, "I would never want to live anywhere but here in the US." Yet they have never been anywhere but here in the US. I love this country and it is my first choice of place to live, but I could imagine that I could be happy any number of places.

[slapass]

Originally Posted by Matt 26z

Here in the US we are indoctrinated from a very early age that the US is the greatest country in the world and that life everywhere else basically sucks. We are however becoming less of a closed society. Things like the internet and certain TV programming have over the past decade have worked to make Americans somewhat more cultured.

It is also highly taboo for an American to talk about ways that other countries are better than us. America has way too much pride for our own good. The result is that 99% of Americans turn a blind eye to the fact that so many other countries have caught up to us in terms of quality of life. They could pass right by us and these blind Americans wouldn't even notice.

I think this is very true. I moved out of the US and found a better life, at least for me.

The US debt is very high. Obviously this will effect the US in the near term. I would still rather live in 2009 then 1969. Yep, the average wife has to work to make the same life but have you ever met a housewife you wanted to hang out with let alone fuck?