Nathan

@bm bradley,

I am DIRECTLY mentioned over and over again, how can I possibly not be the dog that gets hit? Its a pack of one <G>....

I am posting this way since simply put I'm tired of hearing the same shit over and over again, the same unproven accusations and so on.

Your clients might all be from 1997, but so am I. I have a different opinion than your clients. First of all, simply because YouPorn was there long before PornHub, so I am a bit confused as to why PornHub is the evil one... But mainly really this is simply about the fact that noone can prove that its the tubes fault, it simply is the easy solution to a problem which, other than tubes, has solutions which make your clients look much worse than if they simply blame the tubes.

The factors for your so called decline (which is no decline, just a remix of the people that make the money, I honestly think this is the case) in my opinion are:
- Piracy (small factor in my opinion, if anything it slowed the growth down, if it even caused anything to that effect)
- Over saturation of the market
- Bad billing practices
- Low quality content (I'm wondering, how much does a scene cost you?)
- General laziness

People do not spend 50% more on porn because there is 50% more paysites out there. If you add 50% more paysites, the bad ones drop out, the good ones get more sales.. that's just how this whole thing called "the economy" works.

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Nathan

No I am not? I am aggressive about them going after torrent DOWNLOADERS. I do not call that infringers, sorry...

I'm wondering btw (and this is not geared towards you in particular, but everyone reading this)... how many people posting here have actually _NEVER_ downloaded a single torrent, OR _NEVER_ went to youtube.com ...

I am relatively SURE that _never went to youtube.com_ is going to be somewhere close to 0%.

So emm, should you all get sued now?

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SteveLightspeed

Holy shit Nathan, you are the one that is being thick now.

We are sueing people that WE downloaded our own copyrighted content FROM. Files like "Lightspeedgirls.com complete site rip". How the hell can they say they didn't know sharing the file was illegal?

who ever said fuck all about downloaders? You keep arguing about something that no one is doing.

I've never seen anyone thumb their nose at the whole industry the way you do. Hope that bites you in the ass soon.

Steve Lightspeed

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Shap

I think Nathan thinks you guys are going after downloaders the way Metallica and others did.

RazorSharpe

Why? Youtube is VERY proactive about infringers. Adult tubes on the other hand are not. Nathan, please don't take offence to be pursuing this conversation with you. Unlike "some" other, I am not doing this to demean you or accuse you in any way. I am genuinely interested in figuring out the way you think.

You can't expect this argument of "if you use youtube" to hold water. If creators of content that winds up on youtube illegally want to pursue the same measures that Steve is taking then that is a risk that anyone, myself included, using youtube have to take. Youtube is not about wantonly abusing IP, adult tubes (illegal ones) are.

You'd need to compare apples to apples and porn tubes are youtube aren't really the same now, are they?

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Nathan

Steve, this thread is about the article. The article clearly talks about DOWNLOADERS of files. Not SEEDERS. That's all I am complaining about.. and I have said so many many times...

Won't bite me in the ass, sorry <g> since most people here understand it...
So I guess the article misunderstood or misquoted your lawyer when they compared it with going after drug addicts instead of drug dealers...

Problem with torrents obviously, anyone that downloads uploads some of the file usually also, even if only a little bit...

But this is a useless discussion anyway, since you 100% disagree with my stand on things it seems... so, I will just let it be.

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Serge Litehead

unless downloadable media has member id embedded into it in all or some frames

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SteveLightspeed

Really? Where is this army of supporters you speak of? mlove? gideonIdiot? where are the posts from these big producers who are making so much money from submitting to your tubes?

Where are the posts supporting you *anywhere*?

Oh, I forgot. I just don't understand how this industry works. I'm just dumb that way...

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Nathan

Comparing YouTube and PornHub, I do not see the difference in the way you explain it?

Around 70% of our content comes from studio accounts. YouTube more or less is the same. We buy licenses to content all the time, as does YouTube. We have a very strict following of DMCA, as does YouTube; for example a repeat infringer policy. We are working on other things, as I have said in the past and keep saying again.

I see no real difference here.

Why do you say they are different?

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Nathan

Where is 80% of the industry? It for sure does not post on GFY at all..

I never said you do not understand how this industry works Steve... do not put words in my mouth..

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Nathan

holograph, yes, a good idea to find the ACTUAL pirate...

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stocktrader23

Looks like this thread backfired. ;)

Tasty1

Stealing (user submited content) is good 'stealing'.
Letting peole pay by a lawsuit for content is bad?

Both do it for the money. Some don't care they harm producers, other choose to get the money from the downloaders.
And it seems both ways are legal.

YouTube settled a lot of lawsuits when Google took over.

stocktrader23

A huge % of videos on YouTube abuse IP and always have. You think all those 'fat people falling' videos came from the person recording? They were stolen from Americas Funniest Videos. Those UFC fights? Stolen. Those Boxing matches, football games, celebrities and even music videos are uploaded without permission.

You are a damn idiot, YouTube has already been sued over this. THEY WON.

RazorSharpe

You're referring to the "new" PornHub? Please don't treat me like an ignorant school kid Nathan; we all know the how, what and where of PornHub, at least prior to you taking over. You can't gloss over the fact that it was built on illegal enterprise and continued to be run that way until recently. We also know that a lot more than just 30% of the content on pornhub is there illegally.

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RazorSharpe

I am attempting to have a rational discussion here stocktrader so calling me a damn idiot is just showing me and everyone else that the real idiot here is you! Can't you get through a conversation without being rude? If you can't find it within you to be dignified, then you too can "kindly" fuck off ...

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Nathan

RazorSharpe, how can I ever discuss anything about prior to me buying it? I have no magic knowledge of insider information from then. We took it over as is and are making sure we do everything in our power to comply with DMCA as fully as possible.

I am also not going to blame anyone on anything yet, simply not my place to do so, if you think you must, go ahead and do, I won't comment on it though.

When I talk about PornHub, I mean "my" PornHub, as in, post March 1st PornHub.

And I do not think 30% of the content is there illegally, I think 0% is there illegally.. but, noone here will ever believe me anyway...

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mlove

You seem to be taking a "I'm gonna yell at everyone because I'm such a tough internet guy" approach.

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RazorSharpe

Take off the psychedelic glasses man! I'm not yelling at anyone and I never claimed to be tough. Being able to spot an idiot with an agenda isn't considered being a tough guy!

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SteveLightspeed

You are dilusional if you think 80% of the industry is on your side of these issues. Will you be attending the Content Protection Retreat next month with all your loving supporters? I'm guessing not.

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mlove

I know more about the internet than you ever will in your entire life.

What is my agenda? I don't own any pornographic websites anymore.

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Nathan

I am not saying 80% is on my side either...

I just know how many studios work with us, how many affiliates work with us, how many major adult companies work with us... and so on...

Steve, would you want me to come (as brazzers and mofos obviously)? Tell Allison that you want me to be there, and I'll be there, I already discussed the subject with her. We both thought the other parties would obviously not like us showing up, so we decided against it.

But it sounds like you want me to go?

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mlove

He might not have the industry on his side, but he damn sure has the users on his side.

Here's what's going to happen with whatever crap your copyright protection retreat comes up with:

1) You'll never figure out how to implement any software protection.
2) It will be cracked within a week of initial use.
3) You'll piss off most of your actual customers when you restrict usability.

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RazorSharpe

Normally people saying stuff like this, especially when their knowledge is not even called into questions, tells it's own story. Not to worry though, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and concede that you know more about the internet than I do. How exactly is this pertinent to you assuming I'm yelling at people or trying to be an internet tough guy?

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Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.

darksoul

fact is none of you cares if tubes are legal or not
you just deem them illegal because they cut into your bottom line.

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mlove

You're calling me an idiot when I am smarter than you.

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RazorSharpe

So you knowing about the internet makes you smarter than me? Using that logic you must also be smarter than Albert Einstein, Issac Newton, etc. Kudos!! Your sheer brilliance astounds me! I bow in reverence!!!

__________________
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SteveLightspeed

My point exactly. Why do you think the other attendees would not want you there? Because YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. We'll be working out ways to topple your new empire and reclaim what your tubes have stolen.

Since you are in this thread now, are you really playing dumb to the scraper software that was used to start pornhub? Saying its the "previous owners problem" won't cut it either. Its your problem now. Just asking, how can scraped content be considered "user uploaded"? Wouldn't that fuck up your safe harbor that you cling to?

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gleem

@Nathan, the accusations I've heard against brazzers over the years were by far the scariest shit I ever heard, something along the lines of (now this is just the rumors that were flying a couple years ago that got everyone spooked, don't sue me) "sell us your content/site at 10 cents on the dollar or we will put your site up on pornhub so everyone gets it free"

Now I know this is pre-you being there, but that's the company you guys took over, this is why I think people have a negative attitude about you commenting on piracy, the company's reputation precedes you, obviously you guys are working to change that as well as their former billing practices and that's highly commendable.

Now I don't understand why you are so against what Steve is doing. I'm nobody's fanboy, but as long as what he's doing is legal, and he is busting people stealing his content, what's it to you?

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Nathan

LOL.. I'm looking forward to seeing your "topple" my "empire" or however you want to call it... This will be fun, no doubt. Looking forward to it.

And no, its not my problem now... sorry...

But yes, scraping obviously is illegal.. If it was done or not in the past, I can not comment on since I was not there at the time...

Is it being done right now? No it is not.

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Grapesoda

interesting comment. I think over saturation is a big part. I knew this was coming down the pipe. I was taught that when a biz makes money, more and more people enter the biz until the biz no longer makes money.

I had a client tell me a few years ago that the 'mom and pop' content producers would probably disappearas well, with the content being produced by large 'entities'. that could still happen and as far as membership sites go I see this as the car manufactures from the early 1900's. all bought up between a few larger companies or merging with some disappearing. life moves on.

BTW: pretty sure the people I shoot for don't suffer from bad billing practices or laziness or low quality. and not considering 'free' full length videos on the tubes a 'factor' is an interesting thought as well. I sell scenes, I don't buy them and the cost has dropped to a more 'normalized' rate..

well have fun swatting fire flies here at GFY

can you hit me with an email pls: sell @ bmbhome dot com

Nathan

Gleem, I have actually never heard of the stuff you mentioned in the first paragraph. Do you happen to have more info on this? I would love to know since that obviously seems insane...

I know though why Brazzers is being looked at negatively, and I can somewhat understand it. Does not change the fact that, as you said, their actions people claim to know, whether they are true or false, are pre-me. And I have said time and time again, we are making sure our tubes work WITH the industry and not AGAINST. And for the people that claim we are not, just look at for example the amount of sponsored content on the tubes today vs. just 3 months ago. HUGE difference.

Regarding Steve, if what he has said again in this thread just a few minutes ago is correct, then I have no problem at all. I just have a problem with suing torrent downloaders since I think its a tricky business, its dangerous for the industry's image, and it will do more harm than good.

Suing uploaders or the people that actually took the content from steve and started the seed, I have absolutely no problem with and I am completely in agreement with steve (whether he likes hat or not <G>)

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Nathan

I have no idea who your clients are, and I never meant to say everyones content is bad or they are lazy or such...

I understand that you sell scenes and not buy them, but that means you produce them, right? So I guess, either how much actual cost do you have, and/or how much do your clients pay for an exclusive scene?

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Alky

Hey Steve, how much are you asking to settle for?

gleem

The person who gave me insights into the backroom deals is dead, no joke. I took it with a grain of salt since it was all hearsay but it explained why some deals that seemed to make no sense happened.

Your tubes work with the big studio production industry by buying licenses, not so much the online industry for producers making their own paysites... maybe I'm wrong, but the more free you give away the less incentive to buy... same ole' argument I know, but as you know 1:50 was considered average 10 years ago when there was just AVS sites showing 5 - 10 censored nudes on the tour. With the advent of each model that gave away more porn general traffic conversions got worse ... AVS -->TGP -->MGP -->Tubes

Your tubes are the biggest, so doesn't help adult webmasters much, unless I'm missing something.

Now the tube cat is out of the box, there's no way to put it back in, and the adult webmaster industry sees this and now it's a "me-too" deal as a last chance to survive and it's a race to see who can give away the most to get the most traffic. If you do it legally, that's fucking awesome, you are one step better than the illegal ones, but you still caused us small webmasters plenty of harm.



I don't think the industry has any image that can be harmed in this way, we are all just smut peddlers to them, not like people are going to boycott porn.

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fris

then proove us wrong, remove all the content you dont own the rights too, wait, thats 90% of the content.

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Nathan

gleem,

I hear what you are saying, and of course normal affiliates/webmasters do not like us because we have a lot of traffic, hard to compete...

BUT, I very much disagree about the ratio going down because of free content. It was going down because there were more and more surfers online looking and finding it.

10 years ago, a site only had 2000 hits a day, and then 50 sales on that traffic each day... But the amount of traffic is so much higher now, that sales naturally get diluted.

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Serge Litehead

Nathan, rhetorical question, rest of the seeders are not actual pirates?


btw other than ip address ISP may know user's network card and router mac addresses, computer name; when someone actually gets tracked down and if partook action in illegal distribution there will be traces of evidence left in storage media and system resources - unless that storage media is completely destroyed prior. so with serious case most won't be able to get out in such situation that someone from their WiFi ip address downloaded something and not an accused person/s

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Gerco

Exclusive scene, In my case (and I have only ever sold a couple for exclusive use to 1 site with the rights to show it for 6 months exclusive at which time I could use it myself on Extremehole... in other words I maintained full ownership of it.) 1500 bucks for 30 minutes and about 200 photos to go with it.

When I shoot with models they got paid 1000 per day or 150/hour which ever was cheaper for me. Factor in that I would normally have to rent a place to shoot, get there (normally hundreds of miles) Then I have all the normal costs, tapes equipment lighting props DILDOS (I have about 60k in rubber dildos alone) Lube (bought wet literally by the gallon) Fucking machines, outfits, etc.

The scenes actually cost me quite a bit to produce. I can't pound out 5+ scenes a day... hell it's hard to get 2 really good ones, (try stuffing something the size of a football in one of your holes for a few hours and see how long you last)

Top all this with the fact I can't just walk down the street and find girls that can do this type of penetration.

My saving grace was the fact that I was married to the main feature of the site and we where able to produce a ton of content together over the years for the cost of the toys (and the marriage, so what's the price of that?)

The site has ALWAYS been a shock sell. Word of mouth type site. Nothing faked, everything shown, etc. You start putting my stuff out there on free sites in full length and you take away that "shock" Over saturation becomes a real issue really quick.

Think about this for a second, imagine what could have been made if you (previous owners) could have simply been apart of my 50/50 revshare program for life. Just that 1 OLD video of mine had close to 800 THOUSAND views on pornhub alone.

Instead, the path was taken to steal it and use it to bring eyeballs to the surrounding ads which quite honestly, have nothing to do with my niche to begin with. I have one affiliate who has a horrible webpage promoting my stuff. Seriously, I'm talking 1995 type page here... flashing graphics and all... He has been able to make just about 120k promoting me over the years with a tiny FRACTION of those views.

People can say anything they like about my content. I was never a "professional shooter" I learned as I went starting from nothing. But the fact remains that it must be worth something if everyone is stealing it to use it in promoting there own sites (Silvercash, Adult Empire to name just a few).

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Nathan

holograph, tricky in my opinion, do not really know how to answer that more precisely.

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MaDalton

ask XXXJay - he once made a thread about this

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Nathan

gerco,

why not just use the paid partner program, put short "shock value" clips on the site and banners to your stuff around it... Just with one clip, see what happends, you never know, pornhub surfers might love it.

Shock Value is always very good...

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Kingfish

The standard of proof in a civil case is something more likely than not. The only way the guy could defend this would be to hire an expert witness to attack the technology. So basically he is looking at a minimum of 10k in addition to his attorney?s fees to be able to discredit the technology. And what?s in it for the defendant to fight the case? Even if he wins he is still out all his legal fees and the public including his employer, pastor, wife, kids and neighbors knows what kind of porn he looks at. Why not just pay the $150 and make it all go away? I think most people would be willing to cough up a couple of thousand just to make it all go away.

BFT3K

Think outside the box...

gleem

you seriously believe that if no one had a tube site/mgp or TGPs that everyone wouldn't be making more money for their efforts? profit margins were insane, my profit margins were about 95% 10 years ago, now I'm at about 20%, I'm guessing most companies are looking at 5% or less now.

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BFT3K

The law is not on our side, so maybe it's time to start thinking outside the box...

Nathan

You keep making my point, you realize this, right?

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Paul Markham

Which is exactly how it will be.

Does anyone think it's amazing only pirates and their supporters think they should not be prosecuted to protect the innocent.

Never hear of thieves, muggers, burglars, murderers or any other criminal screaming this.

"Don't prosecute us for thieving, you might charge some innocent guy."

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Nathan

Gleem, no, I did not say that. I said the tubes did not hurt more.

Also, in general, I do not think in total there would be more money being spent for porn, no. There might be more money spent on DVDs or Magazines instead of Online, but thats it. In total, across all media, amount of spending for porn would not have greatly changed.

Said it before, will say it again, in my opinion most of the companies out there that saw a drop in revenue simply saw it because they did not react to changes correctly and because there was more competition so it got harder and harder to stay on top.

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BFT3K

People paid for online porn because they had to. Now that it is free, they no longer have to.

You don't need an advanced degree in mathematics to figure this out.

If YOU are a person who is offering TONS of FREE content right now, THEN YOU ARE THE FUCKING PROBLEM!

Get it?

Don't hide behind anything, or any excuse. If you are dishing out content for free - CONTENT THAT USED TO HAVE TO BE PAID FOR - then YOU are the fucking problem, and I have no idea why ANYONE in this industry would take your side, unless they are guilty of the same bullshit!

You say that people "didn't react correctly" to the thieving? I agree 100%!

It should have ended as soon as it fucking started. Whatever it took...

Read into that whatever you like.