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Vendzilla 09-20-2010 10:50 AM

So the depression is over?
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100920/...bi_ge/us_obama

you have to love this line by Barry

"The first thing you do in a hole is not dig it deeper."

The Demon 09-20-2010 11:03 AM

Obama is a moron. Bernanke is an even bigger moron. We're in a depression that's going to make the Great Depression look like a cakewalk. Obama and Bernanke are speeding it up with their quantitative easing and stimulus bullshit.

Ethersync 09-20-2010 11:04 AM

It's over? Great! Glad that's out of the way...

CaptainHowdy 09-20-2010 11:05 AM

http://www.gfy.com/image.php?u=10132...ine=1275400394

Caligari 09-20-2010 11:19 AM

"Recession pain still real, despite end, Obama says"

To be handed a fucked up economy as Obama was is one thing, but to flat out make these new statements in utter denial of reality and the reality that he hasn't done shit to dig the country out of it's hole if fucking unbelievable.

Does he have connections with Epassport?

On the other hand when you look at the options i.e. the witchcraft...er tea party, things still look pretty lame all around.

Except for the banks and Wall Street.

Tom_PM 09-20-2010 11:24 AM

You know what I bet would solve everything? Tax cuts for the nations wealthiest individuals. And nothing else.

Ethersync 09-20-2010 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR_Tom (Post 17519834)
You know what I bet would solve everything? Tax cuts for the nations wealthiest individuals. And nothing else.

You are so far up Obama's ass you have lost the ability to be objective about anything :2 cents:

The Demon 09-20-2010 11:35 AM

Tom is a moron who doesn't understand that tax cuts for the wealthy means an increase in capital investments, which is really the face of a good economy.

sextoyking 09-20-2010 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon (Post 17519859)
Tom is a moron who doesn't understand that tax cuts for the wealthy means an increase in capital investments, which is really the face of a good economy.

Trickle down hasn't always worked.....

22 million + jobs under clinton...

We lost something like 8 mill under bush....

Vendzilla 09-20-2010 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sextoyking (Post 17519868)
Trickle down hasn't always worked.....

22 million + jobs under clinton...

We lost something like 8 mill under bush....

We lost jobs under democratic control, after 2006, thats when it went to shit

Tom_PM 09-20-2010 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync (Post 17519857)
You are so far up Obama's ass you have lost the ability to be objective about anything :2 cents:

Yes. Because I disagee with this tea party fear and fervor pile of shit, I am up Obama's ass, lol.

Tom_PM 09-20-2010 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendzilla (Post 17519892)
We lost jobs under democratic control, after 2006, thats when it went to shit

Yes. Because Democrats always ruin everything, and Republicans always fix everything.

Why dont people just see it?

Ethersync 09-20-2010 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sextoyking (Post 17519868)
Trickle down hasn't always worked.....

22 million + jobs under clinton...

We lost something like 8 mill under bush....

You are oversimplifying things. Taxes are one factor. Clinton benefited from presiding over a tech bubble that came with the monetization of the Internet and the beginning of the housing bubble. The reality of it all is we never dealt with the first tech bubble crash. The government/Fed tried to paint that over by starting the housing bubble. Now we have the biggest global debt bubble known to man with nothing to artificially re-inflate the economy with. We are looking at around a 30% correction in GDP in the US peak to trough to dig out of this hole and all this stimulus crap is just digging us deeper. If we had just let "too big to fail" fail back in 2008 and sucked it up for a couple years (yes, big unemployment, huge wage cuts, huge government cuts, a big change in standard of living for most people) we would be close to out of this mess now 2 years later with a firm foundation to build from. Unfortunately, our government will probably drag out the misery for a decade or two...

Atticus 09-20-2010 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sextoyking (Post 17519868)
Trickle down hasn't always worked.....

22 million + jobs under clinton...

We lost something like 8 mill under bush....

Trickle down doesnt work. What works is trickle up.

You give extra to the wealthy they invest wisely and save. They're wealthy for a reason. You give extra to the poor and they blow it on flat screens, Red Lobster and jewelry. They're poor for a reason.

The poor and middle class stimulate the economy by spending. Those dollars end up in the hands of the wealthy. Either way it's going one place. The difference is if the wealthy receive it through corporate growth they will hire more employees to sustain that growth. If they receive it through handouts there is no need for additional corporate spending (ie: jobs).

Ethersync 09-20-2010 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR_Tom (Post 17519898)
Yes. Because I disagee with this tea party fear and fervor pile of shit, I am up Obama's ass, lol.

So, you agree with Obama that the recession is over and anyone that says otherwise is a "tea bagger"?

Ethersync 09-20-2010 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atticus (Post 17519933)
Trickle down doesnt work. What works is trickle up.

You give extra to the wealthy they invest wisely and save. They're wealthy for a reason. You give extra to the poor and they blow it on flat screens, Red Lobster and jewelry. They're poor for a reason.

The poor and middle class stimulate the economy by spending. Those dollars end up in the hands of the wealthy. Either way it's going one place. The difference is if the wealthy receive it through corporate growth they will hire more employees to sustain that growth. If they receive it through handouts there is no need for additional corporate spending (ie: jobs).

I think the idea is that tax breaks for the wealthy (who pay most of the tax anyways) equals more investment in companies that give jobs to the poor and middle class so they have money to to blow on flat screen televisions. Also, the whole idea of rampant spending being necessary to stimulate the economy is the same as saying that the best way for a heroin addict to deal with his addiction is to have an ample supply of heroin always at hand.

Vendzilla 09-20-2010 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR_Tom (Post 17519906)
Yes. Because Democrats always ruin everything, and Republicans always fix everything.

Why dont people just see it?

Not at all , I think the democrats fucked things up since 2006 and they need to be stopped, the only conclusion is getting the gop in there

over38 09-20-2010 12:06 PM

My StatsRemote says no............. :(

Slappin Fish 09-20-2010 12:08 PM

Technically the recession is over, the US economy will grow a little over 2.5 percent this year.

But what Obama said is that "For the millions of people who are out of work or otherwise struggling, "it's still very real for them."

He is agreeing with you, for the average American the recession is still here.

he is saying exactly what you are saying. you still manage to hate on Obama :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

Atticus 09-20-2010 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync (Post 17519958)
I think the idea is that tax breaks for the wealthy (who pay most of the tax anyways) equals more investment in companies that give jobs to the poor and middle class so they have money to to blow on flat screen televisions. Also, the whole idea of rampant spending being necessary to stimulate the economy is the same as saying that the best way for a heroin addict to deal with his addiction is to have an ample supply of heroin always at hand.

Yes, I know the theory behind trickle down economics but my point is that doesnt work. When the wealthy get a handout (tax breaks) they dont invest that back into additional jobs. The money stays at the top.

When the poor/middle class get a handout (tax breaks, stimulus) they spend it. This increases revenue for the wealthy and that increased revenue forces the corporations to invest in additional employees.

Vendzilla 09-20-2010 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR_Tom (Post 17519834)
You know what I bet would solve everything? Tax cuts for the nations wealthiest individuals. And nothing else.

that got tried during the great depression, and it didn't work, they went from 25% in 1932 to 63%. I'm believeing you only care what Barry tells you, but these are facts, go ahead and ignore them as you always have

source: http://www.hyperhistory.com/online_n...epression.html

Vendzilla 09-20-2010 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slappin Fish (Post 17519978)
Technically the recession is over, the US economy will grow a little over 2.5 percent this year.

But what Obama said is that "For the millions of people who are out of work or otherwise struggling, "it's still very real for them."

He is agreeing with you, for the average American the recession is still here.

he is saying exactly what you are saying. you still manage to hate on Obama :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

I hate Obama because he's an idiot
I never said he said the recession is over, if you read the article, it says economist said that, not him.
I commented on the bigger hole theory
But the facts mean nothing to you so disregard what I said and the facts

TheSenator 09-20-2010 12:13 PM

The first people out of the recession were the big corporation. Mainstream mom and pop shops are still feeling the pinch. The poor never new the difference except that their benefits increased.

The middle class is gonna be fucked for a long time.

sicone 09-20-2010 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendzilla (Post 17519892)
We lost jobs under democratic control, after 2006, thats when it went to shit

Wow, thanks for the education there... I thought it was somewhere around 2002 when we started pouring millions of dollars daily into invading the Middle East. Remember when the gas prices tripled?

Save the 'but there are still xxx number of troops over there cuz of Obama' I know you know better then that so try and come up with a better reply. I mean after all, who was President when we went in guns blazing. (I'll give you a hint... His daddy tried the same thing about 10 yrs before that and failed, so the second time around he made sure it was a epic fail)

The Demon 09-20-2010 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sextoyking (Post 17519868)
Trickle down hasn't always worked.....

22 million + jobs under clinton...

We lost something like 8 mill under bush....

I didn't say it always worked, but it does more often than not. The rich DO invest heavily, hence capital investments which are the foundation behind supply side economics.

The Demon 09-20-2010 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slappin Fish (Post 17519978)
Technically the recession is over, the US economy will grow a little over 2.5 percent this year.

But what Obama said is that "For the millions of people who are out of work or otherwise struggling, "it's still very real for them."

He is agreeing with you, for the average American the recession is still here.

he is saying exactly what you are saying. you still manage to hate on Obama :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

No you reject. Technically the recession isn't over because we're in a depression. Artificial growth is meaningless because it's just that.. Artificial. Consumer confidence is shit, the dollar is shit, consumer spending is shit, corporate cash balance sheets are rising which means they aren't hiring, the average workweek hasn't improved. Read a book.

TheDoc 09-20-2010 12:26 PM

Yeah man, the depression ended like 70 years ago.

marketsmart 09-20-2010 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon (Post 17519859)
tax cuts for the wealthy means an increase in capital investments, which is really the face of a good economy.

no it does not and this has been proven...

anyway, i hope their is a shift in power so you people can see that neither party has the fix...


yahoo for me though, i just bought another $160,000 rental property for $32,000 and going to look at an $80,000 section 8 for $15,000....

i am loving this democrat controlled govt...





.

Slappin Fish 09-20-2010 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendzilla (Post 17519988)
I hate Obama because he's an idiot
I never said he said the recession is over, if you read the article, it says economist said that, not him.
I commented on the bigger hole theory
But the facts mean nothing to you so disregard what I said and the facts

Are you the Demon in disguise? I thought you were better than that :2 cents:

If you are all about facts why did you confuse depression and recession in your title, didn't the economist say recession?

The Demon 09-20-2010 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slappin Fish (Post 17520063)
Are you the Demon in disguise? I thought you were better than that :2 cents:

If you are all about facts why did you confuse depression and recession in your title, didn't the economist say recession?

Who is confusing depression and recession? I clearly stated that we aren't in a recession but in a depression. Learn to read before making a fool out of yourself.:1orglaugh

The Demon 09-20-2010 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marketsmart (Post 17520052)
no it does not and this has been proven...

I'm glad you brought proof that this has been proven. Oh wait... How predictable.

Quote:

yahoo for me though, i just bought another $160,000 rental property for $32,000 and going to look at an $80,000 section 8 for $15,000....

i am loving this democrat controlled govt...
Yea, you're going to love it even more when your dollar isn't worth anything and the real estate market finally hits rock bottom.:1orglaugh

SallyRand 09-20-2010 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atticus (Post 17519933)
Trickle down doesnt work. What works is trickle up.

You give extra to the wealthy they invest wisely and save. They're wealthy for a reason. You give extra to the poor and they blow it on flat screens, Red Lobster and jewelry. They're poor for a reason.

The poor and middle class stimulate the economy by spending. Those dollars end up in the hands of the wealthy. Either way it's going one place. The difference is if the wealthy receive it through corporate growth they will hire more employees to sustain that growth. If they receive it through handouts there is no need for additional corporate spending (ie: jobs).

Good Lord, you didn't sleep through class! One of the most insightful posts I've seen on GFY!

Sally.

cwd 09-20-2010 12:33 PM

wait, there was a depression?

Slappin Fish 09-20-2010 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon (Post 17520073)
Who is confusing depression and recession? I clearly stated that we aren't in a recession but in a depression. Learn to read before making a fool out of yourself.:1orglaugh

I was answering Vendzilla.

And you are telling others to learn how to read :1orglaugh:1orglaugh

GregE 09-20-2010 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync (Post 17519755)
It's over? Great! Glad that's out of the way...

If Obama was a little more on the ball, he wouldn't be crowing about these meaningless (in real terms) numbers.

Instead, he should merely describe this news as a good indication that things will get better for the average American in the not too distant future.

Even that would be a bullshit response, but at least it would be a tad more believable.

What he's doing here is just plain dumb.

The surest way for any leader to commit political suicide is to insult the voters intelligence in an election year.

TheDoc 09-20-2010 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon (Post 17520080)
I'm glad you brought proof that this has been proven. Oh wait... How predictable.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...dy-s-says.html

"Tax cuts in 2001 and 2003 under President George W. Bush were followed by increases in the saving rate among the rich, according to data from Moody’s Analytics Inc. When taxes were raised under Bill Clinton, the saving rate fell."

"When the first Bush tax cuts were signed into law in June 2001, pushing the top rate down to 35 percent, the wealthy boosted savings. The saving rate climbed to 2.8 percent in the first quarter of 2002 from minus 2 percent in the second quarter of 2001. The increased savings coincided with a 1.1 percent decline in the S&P 500 index."

This isn't the first study, test, history to prove that taxing the rich does not create more investments or grow the eco, at all. That isn't to say it doesn't have positives in some areas, but investments, job creation, etc is not one of them. Those take a different type incentive, ones that don't benefit the person but the corporation.

Vendzilla 09-20-2010 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sicone (Post 17520013)
Wow, thanks for the education there... I thought it was somewhere around 2002 when we started pouring millions of dollars daily into invading the Middle East. Remember when the gas prices tripled?

Save the 'but there are still xxx number of troops over there cuz of Obama' I know you know better then that so try and come up with a better reply. I mean after all, who was President when we went in guns blazing. (I'll give you a hint... His daddy tried the same thing about 10 yrs before that and failed, so the second time around he made sure it was a epic fail)

Come on Dan, where did I say anything about the war, I have a daughter in the military, please once tell me where I can find where I ever posted I like the wars? I bitch because we still have 50k troops there, sorry, thats how I feel
Gas prices went to $5 a gallon in our area under the democrats control of the house and senate, so yes I remember
I remember the shit SR did, I also remember the shit Clinton did like

Dec. 18, 1998 - As U.S. warplanes drop bombs over Baghdad, the House begins debating articles of impeachment against President Clinton.

So tell me, what does this have to do with the economy and this thread?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Slappin Fish (Post 17520063)
Are you the Demon in disguise? I thought you were better than that :2 cents:

If you are all about facts why did you confuse depression and recession in your title, didn't the economist say recession?

Is that the best you can do? I stated that it's been tried before, they raised the top rate to help the economy, it didn't work you fucking moron. Is that plain enough for you?

FetishWeb 09-20-2010 12:40 PM

Awesome time to be alive, comrade.

You have the media and government in sympatico denying there's even a recession for 2 years followed by 2 years of them announcing every week that the recession is over.

B2BwithJoeD 09-20-2010 12:40 PM

Europeans Billing Europe!
 
Similar link: http://www.justnews.com/money/250827...09460109202010

Same message = 'recession' over...

The Demon 09-20-2010 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoc (Post 17520116)
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...dy-s-says.html

"Tax cuts in 2001 and 2003 under President George W. Bush were followed by increases in the saving rate among the rich, according to data from Moody’s Analytics Inc. When taxes were raised under Bill Clinton, the saving rate fell."

"When the first Bush tax cuts were signed into law in June 2001, pushing the top rate down to 35 percent, the wealthy boosted savings. The saving rate climbed to 2.8 percent in the first quarter of 2002 from minus 2 percent in the second quarter of 2001. The increased savings coincided with a 1.1 percent decline in the S&P 500 index."

This isn't the first study, test, history to prove that taxing the rich does not create more investments or grow the eco, at all. That isn't to say it doesn't have positives in some areas, but investments, job creation, etc is not one of them. Those take a different type incentive, ones that don't benefit the person but the corporation.

Honestly, have you any idea what is going on here? Do you understand economics? And I'm not talking about mainstream "spending is the answer" Keynesian bullshit. Your entire post proved my point, completely. Tax cuts for the rich increase savings for those rich. Savings in the form of savings account, stocks, etc, increase capital investments, which ultimately boost the economy. Supply Side Economics is what works for this countr
y and others. Demand side economics/Keynesian economics have never truly worked because they are based on fundamental flaws.


Here you go doc.

http://tutor2u.net/economics/revisio...-spending.html
Quote:

AS Macroeconomics / International Economy
Capital Investment and Spending


Investment is spending by UK firms on capital goods such as new factories, plant or buildings, machinery & vehicles. It is an important component of demand, but as we shall see, it also has an impact on the supply-side of the economy.

Definition of Capital Investment

* Capital investment is defined as spending on capital goods such as new machinery, buildings and technology so that the economy can produce more consumer goods in the future.
* A broader definition of investment would encompass spending on improving the human capital of the workforce - for example extra investment in training and education to improve the skills and competences of workers.
* Most economists agree that investment is vital to promoting long-run economic growth through improvements in productivity and a country’s productive capacity.

Gross and Net Investment

Gross investment spending includes an estimate for capital depreciation since some investment is needed to replace technologically obsolete plant and machinery. Providing that net investment is positive, businesses are expanding their capital stock giving them a higher productive capacity and therefore meet a higher level of demand in the future.

The Economic Importance of Capital Investment

Firms often invest in new capital goods to exploit internal economies of scale. This, together with technological advances that are often built into new machinery, is vital to improving the UK's competitiveness and to causing an outward shift in the country’s production possibility frontier.

Firms often invest in new capital goods to exploit internal economies of scale.

The amount of capital equipment available for each worker to use and whether this capital is up to date has a bearing on the productivity of the labour force. The quality of business training also matters to make the most of investment in new capital and technology



Outward shift in the production possibility frontier

In the short run, devoting more a country’s scarce resources to the production of investment goods (a process known as capital accumulation) might require a reduction in today’s output of consumer goods and services (lower consumption would be accompanied by a rise in saving). The re-allocation of resources towards capital goods would be shown by a movement from point A to B on the production possibility frontier.

But if the extra investment is successful and leads to an increase in a country’s productive capacity then the PPF can shift out and open up the potential for an increased output of consumption goods to meet people’s needs and wants. This is shown by a movement from point B on the PPF to point C which lies on the new PPF after the effects of an increase in investment.

Investment affects AD as well as Aggregate Supply (AS)

It should be remembered that investment is also a component of AD. Businesses involved in developing, manufacturing, testing, distributing and marketing the capital goods themselves stand to benefit from increased orders for new plant and machinery.

A rise in capital investment will therefore have important effects on both the demand and supply-side of the economy – including a positive multiplier effect on national income.

* Demand side effects: Increase spending on capital goods – affects industries that manufacture the technology / hardware / construction sector
* Supply side effects: Investment is linked to higher productivity, an expansion of a country’s productive capacity, a reduction in unit costs (e.g. through the exploitation of economies of scale) – and therefore a source of an increase in LRAS (trend growth)



Investment affects AD as well as Aggregate Supply (AS)

It is not just the level of capital investment which is important but also the quality of the increase in the capital stock. A high level of investment on its own may not be sufficient to create an increase in LRAS – workers need to be trained to work the new machinery and there may be time lags between new capital spending and the knock-on effects on output and productivity in particular. Also, if there is insufficient demand in a market, a high level of capital investment may lead to excess capacity emerging in industries – putting downward pressure on prices and profits

Gross capital fixed investment by business
One way to remember the importance of investment is to consider the 3 Cs - capacity, costs and competitiveness. Higher investment should allow British businesses to lower their production costs per unit, increase their supply capacity and become more competitive in overseas markets.

Key Factors Determining Capital Investment Spending

Several factors influence how much businesses are prepared to commit to investment projects:

* Real interest rates: Interest rates affect the cost of borrowing money to finance investment. If the rate of interest increases, the cost of funding investment increases, reducing the expected rate of return on capital projects. A second factor is that higher interest rates raise the opportunity cost of using profits to finance investment – i.e. a business might decide that the cost of financing new capital is too high and that it could earn a higher rate of return by simply investing the cash. Low interest rates are not always good news for business investment. Recently economists have become concerned that low interest rates has reduced the cost of capital for businesses to such an extent that some low quality capital investment projects have been given the go ahead and much of this investment has proved to be disappointing.
* The rate of growth of demand: Investment tends to be stronger when consumer demand is rising, giving businesses an extra incentive to invest to expand their capacity to meet this demand. Higher expected sales also increase potential profits – in other words, the price mechanism should allocate extra funds and factor inputs towards investment goods into those markets where consumer demand is rising.
* Corporate taxes: Corporation tax is paid on profits. If the government reduces the rate of corporation tax (or increases investment tax-allowances) there is a greater incentive to invest. Britain has relatively low rates of company taxation compared to other countries inside the EU. This is a factor that helps to explain why Britain has been a favoured venue for inward investment from overseas during the last decade.

* Technological change and degree of market competition: In markets where technological change is rapid, companies may have to commit themselves to higher levels of investment to keep pace with the shifting frontier of technology and remain competitive. In markets where there is a premium on a business keeping costs down but at the same time, achieving year on year gains in efficiency and quality of service, there is also an incentive to keep capital investment spending high.
* Business confidence: Business confidence can be vital in determining whether to go ahead with an investment project. When confidence is strong then planned investment will rise. The Confederation of British Industry (www.cbi.org.uk) publishes a quarterly survey of confidence that gives economists an insight into likely trends in investment from manufacturing industry – although it must be remembered that over 70% of total GDP now comes from the service sector. In recent years, capital spending by service businesses has grown strongly – but manufacturing investment has weakened.


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