IF GZ hadn't had a gun would ...
 

Trayvon be held up as the innocent? He would be the kid who beat up the neighborhood watch guy. I just noticed if you take the gun out, and police break it up in progress, isn't he, Trayvon in jail?

Good point, but still doesn't answer the question of where the white racist came from.

I doubt a physical confrontation have happened if Zimmerman didn't have a gun. Firstly I doubt Zimmerman would have followed him in the way he did. Second, I suspect the physical confrontation started or escalated the moment when it became clear Zimmerman had a weapon. There is no witness either way to testify against this other than Zimmerman.

If you think about it Zimmerman carrying the gun was probably what made the confrontation escalate into something serious in the first place. Zimmerman's injuries did not require hospitalization. Multiple people were already on the phone with the police before he fired the gun. Zimmerman had called them earlier in fact and they were on their way. I think they arrived less than a minute or two after the gun was fired.

I'm not a big anti-gun activist but it seems clear that untrained people with guns = more lethal confrontations. Now a bar fight or a street pushing match can turn into a case where someone shoots the other person dead whereas before it would have been a relatively minor fight.

Yes, because the moment I see somebody has a gun I think to myself "Well, I better start beating them up BEFORE they shoot me" :tongue:

Maybe if more people started shooting more people there would not be as many fights anymore

Something kind of scary to consider if you dare is that initially there was no case as the police decided it didn't warrant one... I'd bet you dollars that if he hadn't died that he would have been charged with assault and battery of the heroic neighborhood watch captain in a heartbeat though.

Well if you believe GZ when Trayvon saw his gun supposedly Trayvon said to him "You are going to die tonight!" before even taking his weapon from him. Somehow GZ got the gun first and blew him away. And I guess Trayvon never even touched the gun because from what I understand his prints aren't on it and GZ never claimed that.

So Trayvon, an unarmed 17 year old kid, got in a fight with George Zimmerman, tried to kill him by bashing his head into the concrete and then upon seeing his weapon threatened to kill him before even securing George's weapon. Yeah. But the jury has spoken...

Exactly.

I know 17 year old kids from the burbs, and they would all have said, "sorry sir. I will leave right away, sir", etc. Conflict resolution versus escalation. I know we are all keyboard warriors so that is out of the question but in the real world violent behavior is met by force. Totally sucks for both of them.

Maybe. But also if you get in a dispute with someone and there are no witnesses around maybe in Florida it's better to be the one to blow them away first before they have a chance to blow you away and claim self defense. It's a scary precedent. I think the law needs some further work.

George Zimmerman said that Trayvon saw his gun and then threatened to kill him BEFORE even securing his weapon. You would think the kid would have been high on something other than pot to be that crazy.

Who sees an armed person and threatens to kill them while the other person still has control of the weapon? But oh well....

Well, George also said on video which was shown at trial that when Trayvon REACHED for the gun (holstered on the back of his hip under his pants) that George clamped Trayvon's arm between his own arm and chest, and THEN drew and fired the weapon. He's really an amazing man to be able to achieve so many things.

George also told his best friend that night that Trayvon had HOLD of his gun.. but that story just washed away in the rain or whatever.

I am an anti-gun activist, however I agree that without the presence of the gun there would not have been a fatal encounter, and that quite possibly Zimmerman would have never gotten out of his car, and there would not have even been a fist fight.

Unfortunately, the jury decision in the Trayvon Martin case muddies up self-defense issues even more, and will possibly cause some people to become more trigger happy, or to invent excuses for homicide, like "he said I was going to die", to justify the murder of another person, even an unarmed person.





:stoned

ADG

Actually GZ's testimony is that Treyvon was on top of him beating him up, Treyvon noticed GZ's gun and said "you are going to die tonight", then tried to grab it. Which is when GZ shot him.

Yeah, whenever I'm beating someone and notice they have a gun I always do a death soliloquy before reaching for his gun.

:1orglaugh

What a strange thing to say to an armed person when you have yet to secure the weapon.

Imagine someone trying to mug me. I am unarmed. They are about 10 feet away and they pull out a hangun and yell "Give me your money fast or I'll shoot". Now I just smile at them and say with a Dirty Harry voice "You are going to die tonight."

Make sense? Of course not. It's like something out of the movies.

If it happened the way GZ says it did then that Trayvon Martin had a huge set of balls. Imagine being an unarmed 17 year old, sucker punching a guy, mounting him and pummeling him, getting interrupted by others who say to "STOP!" and reveal that they are calling the police, and THEN to see the guy below you has a weapon and before securing the weapon from him you tell him "You are going to die tonight!" That's a set of balls right there, no?

And as if after punching him multiple times, slamming his head into the pavement and seeing the gun he is going to pause and take the time to say "you are going to die tonight" to Zimmerman. As if criminals really do that right before they get ready to blow you away with your own weapon.

On top of this Zimmerman must also have a pretty hard head to not be razzled pretty bad from being slammed into the pavement so many times and punched. But no he heard what Trayvon said perfectly and was able to fight back. Trayvan couldn't stop him at all from shooting him.

I believe GZ was probably in fear for his life but like I said I think parts of his story is bullshit meant to save his own ass.

I like pointing out the obvious.

George told the FIRST neighbor on the scene "I had to shoot him in self defense", he also told the police and anyone who would listen (his best friend who wrote a book about it) that TM was smothering him. This devolved from TM leaning on him with all his weight while covering his mouth, to his defense lawyer saying "maybe it was a shirt sleeve brushing his face".. he also says that TM said "you're going to die tonight" but nobody heard that in the echo-chamber between buildings. He also said TM got HOLD of his gun which devolved into him saying that he was REACHING for his gun. He also told his story of his head being SLAMMED 20 or 30 times which devolved into a few times and his head injuries could have happened from as few as 4 blows which even the defense admitted.

This guy NEEDED us to believe he was in fear for his life since the moment it happened. He KNEW he needed to get it out there early and get it out there often. It's weird because the truth doesn't require any believers and will make itself known in time.

It did, you just missed it.

He was a dumb 17yo kid. Most kids are dumb at that age. Factor in the fact that he was a wannabe thug and on the phone getting riled up with his friend and maybe he did say it in a moment of stupidity.

Here's where the problem begins. Everyone speaks like they were there and saw the action unfold first hand.

There were two people who saw the events of that evening. One of which is now deceased. Everything is speculation. Did you actually witness Zimmerman following him to start a confrontation?

Not that I agree with either side, but come on people. Stop being lead by the media and what you believe happened. Emotions and presumptions cannot convict someone.

I don't think I've seen anyone in the media talk about the problem with the "You are going to die tonight" claim. I spotted that as soon as I first heard it. That's not how it normally goes down. There are so many problems with GZ's story. The whole idea that TM would say that while GZ still his the gun and AFTER being confronted by the male neighbor who yelled "stop!" and stated that he was calling the police is pretty crazy.

Did Trayvon really intend to shoot Zimmerman and get away when he knew neighbors were watching and that the cops were on the way? When he lived right down the street int he next building? And why? Because GZ followed him? ... He had no criminal record. Contrary to the way some racists paint it Trayvon Martin was not a hardcore criminal thug gang banger. He was a kid still in school.

It's just thinking for yourself here. The media has nothing to do with me questioning these things. It's common sense that most people wouldn't threaten to kill someone when they are unarmed and the other guy still has a weapon. It's common sense to question the self defense claim when every aspect of his story is almost too good to be true and "the perfect self defense claim".

Gun or no gun, the problem lies in the fact that Zimmerman chose to exit his vehicle and follow TM to begin with, and no media spin or claims of media bias can refute that.

There is audio recording of the 911 dispatcher specifically telling Zimmerman to not leave his vehicle. The end result of the night is proof that Zimmerman didn't listen.

Is it far fetched to believe that Zimmerman felt more confident in exiting his vehicle and following Martin since he was carrying? I know I would feel more confident and secure following someone if I was armed. I don't think it's unfair to assume Zimmerman felt the same way. We know Z was instructed not to follow. And we know he did. These are facts. And you didn't have to "be there" to know that. So not everything in this discussion is people being misled by the media.

I think it's pretty damn cut and dry that if Zimmerman had followed instruction and remained in his vehicle, we'd have a completely different situation today.

If you watch the video of zimmerman with the police Video at 2:55 look were zimmerman shows were his gun is.

There is no way possible the kid could see the gun if he had him mounted or zimmerman could of got to it :2 cents:

Yet the prosecution's own investigators agreed that GZ's statements were overall consistent.
http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/07...n-martin-day-7

Here's a couple of links that should give you something to think about the people fanning the fires of the case
http://nationalreview.com/article/35...rida-john-fund
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2...y-director-who

Ok but exiting and following is not a crime. No one would be locked up for doing that. Was it dumb, sure, was it a crime, no. If you look at the map, he was doubling back towards his car. Trayvon was heading towards his house. No crime was committed yet.

If Zimmerman didn't have a firearm.... It's entirely possible he wouldn't have ever left his car...

If Zimmerman didn't have a firearm he would have gotten a bloody lip... Police were already on their way, and witnesses were arriving on the scene to break it up when Zimmerman shot him.

Playing Devil's advocate, one could also argue that IF GZ didn't have a firearm TM might have beaten him to death. It only takes one good blow to the head and it can be permanent lights out.

Oh the wonderful world of ifs... :thumbsup

Never seen a topic that makes so many (sometimes) reasonable semi intelligent people spout such nonsense.

Signupdamnit says Trayvon would not have threatened to kill GZ before grabbing the gun. This is totally believable. A dumb thug beating the crap out of the smaller neighborhood watch guy, on top, in control, not a mark on him, thinking he's the baddest No Limit N**ga on the block yo, figures he's in charge and maybe seen too many movies. Overconfident, he speaks before acting.

Nobody talks about the fact that Trayvon had a history of petty crimes, and there's a decent chance his black high ass was out to commit some more that night just like he seemed to be about to do by GZ.

You speak of him being a thug and having a history of petty crimes but read this link on Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooti...Trayvon_Martin

He was NEVER even charged with a crime in his life let alone convicted. He has a school disciplinary record but it's all just Bart Simpson type stuff. Pot, Graffiti, and being tardy. In one instance a search by the school showed him to have women's jewelry and a screwdriver. But he was never charged with anything because there was no evidence he actually did anything wrong.

When I was 17 I was probably much worse than the above. We did pot all the time, we drank like crazy - sometimes all night, I think I missed 50 days my senior year. I was probably suspended over 10 times. I also fucked a bit with some school equipment in some minor ways. And maybe if school officials searched me at times they would have found some weird stuff. Maybe even a screwdriver. So what? Chances are if I had a screwdriver it was for fixing my car or some other thing. Big deal. It didn't mean I was a burglar or a thief. I grew up fairly normal. I don't have a criminal record. I've never been arrested. I'm not a "thug". So why is Trayvon? Because he was a young black kid who acted like many 17 year olds do?

To hear some of you talk you would think Trayvon Martin had a record of dealing crack, murdering people in drive by shootings, assaults, and burglary. But that's not the case at all.

I thought his phone showed he was dealing. Had been in fights and was pretty much headed for a life of crime. Kicked out of school is pretty hard to do.

Edit: not sure this matters though. The fact that he was the aggressor is what matters.

I wouldn't answer to anyone for anything unless they are an actual police officer.
However, i wouldn't have attacked the guy either, i would have just left.

Not trying to be a prick but if you stop and let any dickhead who thinks they are an authority figure speak to you, you will waste your time. Here for example in China. Each time i go to a store with a drink in my hand they want to take it from me, and let me come back for it. Don't want me to shop in your store, i won't.
I just walk by them. fuck people think they have too much power.

George Zimmerman isn't finished, he will do something else stupid.
i put the odds at about 85% he will be arrested soon for doing something idiotic.

Of course. This was also argued by the defense. That if Martin had been shot in the hip and survived, he'd be facing assault charges.

I find that highly unlikely, which is my problem with this entire case. Zimmerman was never in any danger - it was a fist fight, nothing more.

You should tell the jury that after sitting through every single fact and after carefully weighing all the evidence and testimony they heard... that Zimmerman wasn't in any danger. After all, if he wasn't in any danger, that makes him a murderer and its a slam dunk case for murder.

Weird that only you "get it"