Bitcoin are intrinsically worthless according to economist Peter Schiff
 

Alright he has a lot of sympathy for what we are trying to achieve!

This fucking clown is supposed to have credibility while he tries to sell gold?

Thats like a fish trying to argue against the existence of fish hooks :thumbsup

Also he makes several factual errors, and since he is an expert they can not possibly be errors but rather outright lies.

Like what? What did he lie about?

He's talking to novices and hoping they don't know shit - it's pure smear and scare tactics..which is hilarious to think that those in his industry must actually be shaking in their shoes.

If you know much about commodities and also Bitcoin (I used to be a stockbroker 25 years ago) you can hear that his talk is riddled with BS - the most obvious lie was about the need for gold to be transferred (actual gold is rarely transferred when you buy "gold") - what about gold futures and all the other Financial Products based on the speculation of the performance of gold. His company no doubt trades in these products and the prices of them rise and fall, and you trade them like you can trade Bitcoin - the idea that "Intrinsic Value" matters is a joke. He starts by explaining why Bitcoin should actually have intrinsic value - then doesn't say anything that actually debunks it.

Clown.

Dinosaur.

Fail.

also - calling this guy an "economist" is playing fast and loose...nice try

It's painfully obvious that he is speaking on behalf of his prescious metals company i'm not seeing these scare tactics you speak of. what scare tactics? what smears? it seems he's dealing in cold hard facts for the most part.

http://www.europacmetals.com/our-products.aspx they seem to deal in physical metals

I would argue that it does if you're looking for a store of value. The object should have intrinsic value if that is the case.

No he doesn't.. he starts by explaining why they don't
He explains in great length why they don't have intrinsic value by comparing them to gold.

not really, it would be fair to say he is an economist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economist
"An economist is a professional in the social science discipline of economics. The individual may also study, develop, and apply theories and concepts from economics and write about economic policy."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Schiff

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you know very little about the dizzying variety of financial services products and their value as trading vehicles.

Posting a wildly slanted opinion by a guy who is trying to smear one vehicle, to the benefit of another similar vehicle...and the apparent weight you put on his opinion as fact is proof of that...but what I'm curious about is why?

Why do you care? I know a lot of guys came on GFY just panning Bitcoin as laughable and making claims of it's imminent demise..and now I guess a lot of them are feeling a little foolish as it looks like Bitcoin aint going anywhere.

The biggest joke is that some people think the word "Intrinsic" is at all intrinsic to anything.

So what if I do or don't? that is completely irrelevant to the scope of this thread.


He's absolutely correct about bitcoin being intrinsically worthless. Gold bug or no.

Bitcoin is a fascinating subject.

So you're saying words you don't like have no meaning? lol

in·trin·sic
belonging to the essential nature or constitution of a thing <the intrinsic worth of a gem> <the intrinsic brightness of a star>
b : being or relating to a semiconductor in which the concentration of charge carriers is characteristic of the material itself instead of the content of any impurities it contains
2
a : originating or due to causes within a body, organ, or part <an intrinsic metabolic disease>
b : originating and included wholly within an organ or part <intrinsic muscles> ? compare extrinsic 1b

Yes your lack of knowledge about financial services products is the very essence of this conversation - it's the only reason you posted a youtube video from a bitcoin smear tactician as if his opinion means anything. You took the bait and ran with it - I just tugged a little on the hook and here you are. Well maybe you can learn something.

The reason these guys are scared shitless by Bitcoin is they trade daily in Financial Services Products (on wall street it's in the hundreds of millions, or billions) of dollars worth per day that have absolutely no intrinsic value.

You really didn't get my meaning that the word Intrinsic (of course it has meaning) has no meaning to the longevity or stability of Bitcoin? Meaning - it's irrelevant.

The funniest thing about this thread is that your "economist" certainly does point make a very good case for Bitcoin actually having intrinsic value - all it takes is something that takes resources (work) to get, and is finite in quantity (many would argue) - those 2 simple features contained in a Financial Product are ALWAYS going to make people want to trade that product... the term "Intrinsic" is just absolutely moot.

You heard of Exotic Options, Vanilla Options, Exotic Derivatives, Swaptions? Surely you know about CDS's (Credit Default Swaps)? You know - the things that crashed the economy?

They are just contracts - worthless pieces of paper (with collective values in the trillions of dollars) - that are a promise to pay something IF something HAPPENS... all Bitcoin is a public version of something Wall Street normally keeps within it's own ranks - thus the threat.

Not really. The essence of the thread is bitcoin doesn't have intrinsic value. It doesn't take extensive knowledge of the financial services industry to understand that simple point.

He makes a good point. Thats why i posted it. You have failed disprove any thing he has said. And no, smearing him or me with Ad hominem attacks doesn't disprove his point.

bitcoin is intrinsically worthless, and so are many other financial products, so what? Why would dealers of intrinsically worthless shit be afraid of other intrinsically worthless shit? that statement makes no sense.

Intrinsic value in this context means an object has a value if it has a worthwhile use outside of an object of speculation. Gold Does, Bitcoin Doesn't.
Not really. Not forever and always. There are MANY examples that prove that statement wrong.

Yes. They are intrinsically worthless. Just like bitcoin.

Your very good at multi-quoting and not really saying anything...

They are frightened about Bitcoin because it could mean the ABSOLUTE END OF THEIR BIZ... did I really have to point that out? (especially gold selling scammers - who are really just selling FEAR)

You can't seem to grasp the simple point that IT DOES NOT MATTER, not even a little bit, if Bitcoin has "Intrinsic" value. And the very definition of that word is so fluid it makes the statement (that bitcoin has no intrinsic value) even more meaningless.

You are hung up on your dream that Bitcoin will die because it doesn't have any intrinsic value (if may very well die, and be replaced by a more robust standard digital currency - I hope) but dude it's just a fantasy sold to you by a fear merchant.

Sorry you missed the boat man..done with this thread.

ok now you have learned something - but...oh yea what about the fact that these products are the absolute backbone of our economy - we are talking about masses of people living in tent cites if Wall Street lost all confidence in these products - makes that Gold Scammer Shiff youtube video seem a little silly now right?

Night

with record highs on the stock market I would argue that bitcoin isn't hurting them any.
Sure it does, there have been many other speculation bubbles in history based on virtually worthless items. Of course intrinsic value matters when discussing bitcoin. To deny that is to be ignorant of history.

I'm not hung up an a dream that it will die. But I will say given enough time it likely will die.

Also, In order to be my merchant it would require that I buy what he's selling.. no? I've never done business with peter schiff and will likely not in the future.

Nah.. :winkwink:

Oh you've taught me something.. that you are really bad at debating. Thanks for the lesson. :thumbsup

Also I'd like to point out that just because peter schiff is selling gold does not wipe out golds thousands of years history of having intrinsic value and some how make bitcoin a more reliable investment vehicle because of it's couple of year history based on pure speculation.

So the point still stands. Bitcoin is intrinsically worthless, Gold has value beyond speculation and you're really bad at debating.

What's with the epileptic avatar and sig, Coup? :helpme

http://images.dailytech.com/nimage/S...aring_Wide.png

Bitcoin Has No Intrinsic Value, And Will Never Be A Threat To Fiat Currency

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-aDg1alm8zD...0/bitbelts.png

:stoned

ADG

haha DEBATE?

That was called school son.

I thought you were done with my thread? Go to bed. :winkwink:

I thought the place could use a little color. :winkwink:

Crack: more intrinsically valuable than bitcoin.

Sounds like he is advocate of mercantilism ,which was abandoned in 19 century.

Maybe. That might not be an entirely baseless accusation.

Maybe not... at least not entirely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism
From the sounds of that description many aspects of mercantilism are alive and well.

Awesome video. I hope Bitcoins succeed but this guy makes a great point and anyone who can't see that is delusional. Bitcoins ARE intrinsically worthless and he explains why but that doesn't mean that Bitcoins are a bad investment or won't last as a legitimate form of currency. They may have no intrinsic value but if people are willing to trade it for goods and services and accept it as money then who gives a crap? The only real issue is for how long. You're taking a huge gamble there.

The only thing in that video which was dumb is when he said that he needs paper money because it's all the government will accept to pay his taxes.

Peter Schiff, a financial broker and author with a net worth of $70 million vs a random part time internet pornographer who calls Schiff a clown, liar, failure, and a dinosaur.

GFY never disappoints. :1orglaugh

People have been saying Bitcoin is worthless for the last 4 years and people have been saying Bitcoin wont last a year :upsidedow

Just because someone have money that doesn't make him invincible when it comes to mistakes.
Not to mention , everything is now based on supply and demand,nobody care about intrinsics value anyway.

gold is also intrinsically worthless.

it has value because we are told it has value, the fact is very little gold is used in industry.

i.e., gold's intrinsic value is that it's shiny and the television tells us so.

try to sell your huge BC stack, yeah price is going _______ ?

The obvious problem for anyone selling a product with a narrow profit margin and taking bitcoins is a sudden price swing rendering the sale unprofitable.

Gold will likely never be completely worthless because it has many actual real world uses other than just jewelry. That's why it IS NOT intrinsically worthless. It will most likely always have a value.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold#Applications

The same can't be said about Bitcoin. Bitcoin has no other possible use except as an intangible object of speculation and that is why it is likely to fail in the long term.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Has anyone who is trading attempted to actually cash out some or all of their position? I've heard some stories that its been difficult, nothing solid on my end to confirm though. Also, isn't volume quite low on trading? Something like 30k coins a day?

Congrats to all the folks who made money, this one just isn't for me.

the industrial application of gold are moot, it's miniscule.

bitcoin was not designed as an investment vehicle, it's a currency, not a commodity.

digital currency won't fail in the long term. might not be btc, but it's silly to transact analog in a digital world.

I also called him a scammer. Which is exactly what that lecture he is giving is...a scam.

Gold sellers are in the business of selling one thing: Fear

Gold goes up when people are afraid and lose confidence in markets. Gold sellers make money with scare tactics and outright lies and smear. Glen Beck is famous for this.

Funny that you equate his net worth with his credibility DWB. You are a funny guy here on GFY but no one has ever accused you of being intelligent. I passed my Series 7 Stock Brokerage exam at the age of 21..the brain power required to pass a test of this kind is something you could never begin to even fathom.

Gold has very little intrinsic value and is only related to it's usefulness in jewelry, and very limited industrial use.

Amazing that uneducated people can be scammed by guys like Shiff into thinking it has some magical powers as a natural currency.

If all the lights went out and the planet was suddenly forced into the stone ages - and we all had to become hunter gatherers again tomorrow - Gold would probably rise to the top of the heap of the things used as "Currency" But the only reason for that is because of the prevailing misconception that gold has "Value". Only imagined confidence (no different than the confidence kids have in the existence of Santa) can keep the "Price" of anything with such miniscule intrinsic value UP.

Tulip Flower Bulbs were at one time, in one part of the planet, the most valued currency:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania
At the peak of tulip mania, in March 1637, some single tulip bulbs sold for more than 10 times the annual income of a skilled craftsman.

Gold=Tulips=Bitcoins

i'm going to go with you're really really stupid.

i think he makes sence.

as he said, chances are others will copy the idea.

1) Gold was here long before any of us, and will be here long after we're all gone. It doesn't take guys like Schiff or Beck or anyone else to sell it, simply knowing history is enough for those with enough common sense to pay attention to it. Then make the choice, you buy it or you don't. Just like any other commodity.

2) Gold shops all over the world sell.... wait for it... wait... gold. They don't sell fear, they just sell gold. That's it. Good old fashioned gold. Nothing more.

You have gone on and on about your extensive travels in Asia, so then surely you know about Asians and Indians and gold, right? They buy more than anyone, Central Banks excluded, and do not buy it because Peter Schiff or Glenn Beck scared them into doing so. They were buying it long before your grand parents were born and will be buying long after your grand children's grand children are dead and forgotten about.

Na, deep down I know the anonymous posters on GFY have the best credibility, but sometimes for shits and giggles I tend to side with guys who have actually done something with their life and are incredibly successful at whatever it is they do. One does not have a worth of $70 million by being a schmuck. But then again, it is probably because he is a clown that he is a guest on almost every financial show on earth and is a best selling author.

But I'll be on the lookout for AdenDreams' best selling book on economics as well as your appearance on all the big networks. I can't wait.

Says the part-time pornographer calling Peter Schiff a clown.

Glad to see you put it to good use. :thumbsup

Schiff and others like him didn't invent gold. There is no scam. If you want to buy it, you do. If you don't, you don't. It's like anything else that fluctuates in value, and only a scam if you are tricked into paying a higher price for it.

History and 100s of millions of people, not Peter Schiff, have already decided gold is not a scam and that it has value. That's all anyone needs to know.

Please tell me why gold would be the one to rise to the top yet once again, because I don't see how that is possible if it's just a scam based around fear mongering.

I mean really, none of this is even a debate. If you like gold, get some. If you like BTC, get some of that. If you want both, stock up. Real estate, go get it. Who cares what other people spend their money on?

I only have time to watch the first 5 minutes right now. But while I like Bitcoins as a short term payment method I think it's totally different as a long term currency or investment. The thing to keep in mind is what do you think the odds are that it will even stay a viable currency (let alone retain it's value) 1 year from now? 3 years from now? 5 years from now? 10 years from now? If you are planning on holding on to it for a while you are taking a very big bet. The longer you hold, the higher your risk.

With gold OTOH as he says you can be reasonably sure it will have some long term value. It's possible it might not (for instance if it can be easily replicated cheaply) but the odds are much better than with bitcoins where if it gets hacked, outlawed, or something better comes along then you are probably screwed.

Fortunes being made overnight

Is there a way yet to sell Bitcoins short?

remove those seizure inducing gifs, you stupid fuck

DWB you are displaying a grade schoolers inability to grasp that the Gold Mr. Shiff is selling is only intended as an investment vehicle - a way to preserve and enhance your wealth.

The only way a Gold Investments Seller can convince someone to put their hard earned wealth into gold is with scare tactics that dollars, stocks, bonds and other investment vehicles are going to fail...everyone knows this..or so I thought.

Touting gold as a a safe and reliable investment vehicle is snake oil...pure and simple. But worse than that, gold sellers are actually routing for, and in some cases even trying to cause, economic turmoil and a bad stock market (Glenn Beck famously) - that's the only time people rush to gold.

This conversation is apparently far beyond your level of comprehension, either that or you didn't take the time to read any of it - either way you are embarrassing yourself talking about jewelry as having any relevance whatsoever to the discussion. You're at the kids table dude, did you even finish high school? I just operate at a whole other level than you man, this is the last time I will take out of my day to enhance your education.

I suggest you go blow another load in a ladyboy because this shit is way above your head.

I think he's making a lot of good points. Especially about the tulips. Especially about USD. Sure, he's a metals guy so does he like bitcoin? No. Does he ONLY dislike it because he is a metals guy? No. Can you still buy things with a wooden swizzle stick thing? No. Can you still buy something with a bitcoin next year? Who knows. Ten years from now? Who knows.

I still say the governments will find a way to stop everyone from using this. We're talking about collapsing whole economies and maybe the whole WORLD economy- here. Will that be allowed to happen? Some white people with real nice property probably don't think so

I think you're right if you're recommending against buying gold. Dollars just do not buy much gold anymore. The price of gold is the price of gold. What matters if you're in the states is the value of the dollar against the gold. No matter what you say- gold and silver are value. Period. They just are. They always have been. It's likely that they always will be. It's that simple. Would I go and burn all of my dollars buying gold? No. Silver and other metals- maybe.

"Television declared worthless by radio salesman."