is it more important to play by the rules or...
 

win the game... in sportsmanship the answer is very simple... in terrorism I'm not so sure.... I see no reason not to fight terrorism by the rules the other team has established....

I don't see them as enemy soldiers due the rights of the Geneva Convention nor do I see them having the rights of due process granted to AMERICAN CITIZENS.. thoughts?

can you demand from others what you have no intention to follow yourself?

If you act the same way as they do, aren't you a terrorist as well?

I'm not their dad Ma... :2 cents: how about this then.... go to the rules of engagement from 1240 CE?

this :2 cents: "we're" supposed to be the good guys after all

Well said.

Doing inhuman acts makes you inhuman. :2 cents:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bgZ6vlUceR...+The+World.jpg

http://www.murdoconline.net/wp-conte...ger_budget.jpg

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:stoned

ADG

If you ask me, my enemy is my enemy, there should be no holding back by any means.

Tho this mentality got me into a lot of trouble as a kid.

At the very least I would say fight just as dirty as them.

So you are pro torture? Beat them anyway possible?

There are no rules in love or war.

dear shitbird larry ... stay out of my threads :2 cents:

if someone kidnaped your kids and you had the opportunity to beat the location out them before some event killed them... what would you do? sit by, obey the law and let your kids die? (pls stop with the lame creepy targeted questions to try and belittle me... okay?)

this question has been answered in court over here - the answer is yes

a police officer lost his job over it and the murderer sued for damages and was awarded 3000 Euro (he wasnt actually beaten up, just threatened)

If the child was saved by this action then I would say it was well worth it.

That is what accidents are for:
Works every time.

you're a different kinda guy ma if you can stand there and watch your kids die so some scumbag piece of shit can walk free :2 cents:

One case sets a universal precedent for the rest of us? I don't think so..

Was that a European Court ruling?

the kid was dead already but they didn't know that at that point


where did i say that? my personal feelings have nothing to do with that and I don't know what I would do when it comes to my own kid


as much as I dislike the ruling (and i really do) - you can either decide that everyone is equal in front of the law or not. And when you go for the latter, you are where we were in Nazi Germany.
As tragic as every single case is (and once again - if it was my own kid, I would most certainly do not say this now), I find it fundamentally important that laws apply to everyone equally.
Let's just say the police THINKS they have the murderer but that person denies. He gets tortured until he either dies or finally admits something he did not do - then we're back in middle age. And that's not how I would want to live - because someday anyone can be this innocent person.


Germany

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entf%C3...ob_von_Metzler (german only)

torture isn't like the old days Ma.. lot's of sleep depravation, isolation and drugs precisely because this isn't the middle ages.. ... not so much physical anymore mostly mental now... I just looked up the definition of 'torture' .... we don't use torture to get info.... say a guy gets picked up for murder, kiddy fucking or what ever... you all but hurt if they drug the guy up, see what he's been up too the last week or so?

Madness.

you can always find a single case where everyone would agree that just a little torture would have been justified

but that's not how laws work unfortunately - innocent until proven guilty - by a court

to me, this has a higher value in general than an individual case - and this is how it is handled in almost all modern western societies

that's interesting, so when the state pressures someone to talk , cooperate via threats of jail, loss of money, social statues or family that's okay but for the state to pressure a known terrorist via a little mental manipulation for information that will alter the course of events and save many lives.... that's not okay? see what I mean....?

BTW I don't consider armed terrorist caught in the act to be in a 'lawful situation'... i.e. the law or American Citizen rights do NOT apply :2 cents:

I totally agree.

Terrorism is war without uniforms.

Words to live by ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Lets do it to you and see how it goes...Americans have been using torture since...forever.
There's a thing called civilization.

The world you defend works like this. I hate you. I call the cops and say I saw you raping a child/committing a murder/fill_in_the_blanks. The cops come to your house, kick in the door, beat the shit out of you and drag you down to the station. 20 minutes or 24 hours later you confess to a crime you did not commit.

Terrorists are not born terrorists. People become radicalized because their friends/family/country have been going through a living hell usually caused, usually, by the terrorists putting them through it, say another country or political group. the worlds most hated countries are not hated because they dont hand out flowers and chocolate to guests.

Be careful what you agree to...it just may happen to you.

Americans rolled over for the Patriot Act in 2001/2002 and look what the NSA is doing today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_El-Masri

it's pandoras box - you open it a little and everyone goes berserk.


thank you

That is a GREAT question. There are such strong arguments on either side. Everything we think of as "correct" was taught to us by the ruthless winners of an earlier time. Probably, and I'm just guessing here, the most stable society occurs when individuals play by the rules no matter what and the overall society does whatever it takes to win. Is that moral? I don't think so but I'm hobbled by my own context.

Because we are supposed to be better than that.

I don't mind the NSA watching stuff... I have nothing to hide... and to think that war and terror with suddenly stop and we will all hold hands as we walk into the sunset is well.....childish ..... how many Carthaginians do you see around terrorizing Rome? I know that's a rather harsh example....

yes, why I brought it up... like you, I'm bound by my own conventions.... would be nice to live in a world free of conflict, just don't see it happening anytime soon... I have no answers :2 cents:

Ma have you ever really researched WWII? don't you even wonder why a country with military superiority lost in a few weeks? why Hitler's generals told him not to attack France? these are things you should be aware of IMO..

GTFO, I just need my peace on my private island.

i have no idea what this has to do with the topic

you asked if we should lower ourselves to the level of the people that attack us - and i said no

do you think your attitudes and conventions are self taught? you don't understand that your values are set by media agendas? weird to Ma that you might think your ideas and values were created in a vacuum...

here's what the mention of WWII has to do with it: after WWII the French 'left/intelegencia' which controls the media, just like the left controls the media in America decided that the horrors of war must be avoided at all cost... school books were rewritten and forced into the schools system that portrayed the German soldiers as 'just poor kids that were pushed into killing', that had a horrible existence and should be pitied... while all sense of French nationalism was mocked and destroyed... basically killing the will of the French to defend themselves... which was seen when the Germans attacked a militarily superior force and beat the shit out of them, BECAUSE the French soldiers and no will to fight....

so now we get to your generation... peace love dope porn... whoo hoo...!!! all people have beautiful souls, every life is precious... blah blah blah... meanwhile in ISALM: these kids are taught EVERY FUCKING ISSUE that they have is because you wake up in the morning and breath in and out... 7 billion of those cocksucker right?

now I'm not sure about the 'lowering ourselves' in some areas however I do know that a big ass shit storm is coming down the tube and that 'peace out bro' isn't going to stop it :winkwink: