Foreign Travel ...
 

Really makes you appreciate what you have.

So I just got back from rather long trips to

Italy, France, Russia, Germany, UK, Canada and India

I've never loved the USA more.

We have our issues but wow.

most of those countries are better than the USA except for India and russia....

Yeah .... no. :1orglaugh

There's pros and cons to everywhere.

What were the issues you experienced? (this is NOT a pro or anti American bait question, genuinely curious what you perceived as different)

We can try to be fucking wise or whatever saying that travelling is the only paying thing that actually makes you richer but THIS, is the key to everything.
Simple and true and universal:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wizzo (Post 20129966) There's pros and cons to everywhere.

:thumbsup

If we don't take this in account we'll never be able to make it anywhere.
I agree, travelling makes you appreciate much more the things you had and the things you're missing.

i kunt a4d 2 travel... :(

What was exactly "wow" and where was that?

I had the same after my USA trip.... I was like: damn... i love Europe.... I'm a European...

you know what subjective means?

Hey Mickey

And I hope people don't mistake my comments as "anti" wherever.

But I can give you examples... Lets take Italy.

My trip was non adult, business related ( textile related )

So I had meeting after meeting with artisan business owners who just couldn't grasp the idea of growth. To a man / woman they all had a philosophy whereby if they could pay for their house , car and wine .. they had no use for working harder or growing their businesses.

And we aren't talking about upper middle class housing .. or even middle class housing by US standards.

I met with the creative director for a very well known house who lived in what we would consider a shade above student housing.

I learned a great deal about how the government taxes income over certain thresholds and how it literally causes people to strive for the minimum.

It was honestly depressing.

Then I made the mistake of buying some very nice fabric. Because the price exceeded a certain number, I had to file a ton of paperwork right there in the store so the government could ensure it received the proper taxes. It was a lot of paperwork. I asked if this was normal or if this was due to me being a foreigner and they explained that this is SOP regardless of where you originate from.

The only place I didn't feel this deep sense of mediocracy was in Milan. And even they joke that they are the only peoples in Italy that actually know what a 40+ hour work week is.

The artistry of Italy was inspirational, the beauty of the country was wonderful ( although no better or worse than in the USA ), The food was much better.

But I found my trip deeply depressing. And story after story from the locals told me that the government there was deeply corrupt beyond anything we deal with here in the US.

To me, it looks like you're just "miffed".

All the countries you've listed are WAY better than US. Apart from India which is just a backwards country which is developing fast but has a long way to go and Russia which is greyish, corrupt and also a bit dull but is amazing if you look in the right places.

It is actually possible to travel and not actually objectively "see" a country - you have to be looking and looking at the right things to really experience a country. If all you're doing is comparing your country with all the others, you're a silly ass.

One of those 'issues' not as bad in other countries:

http://s13.postimg.org/95us2damv/image.jpg
http://images.sodahead.com/polls/003...f6_xlarge.jpeg
http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/5T6kx6esGwQ/hqdefault.jpg
http://global.fncstatic.com/static/m...news/ms-13.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7vYikuP6rQ...ogomira-19.jpg

and the worst one:

http://1boidr1j8wt01itylm7cszo5r8.wp...ang-symbol.jpg

yeah, right, working like slave for things that you actually dont need is the way to go :1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

maybe you should take example from Dolce Vita.......

Forza Italia !, but I agree about total corruption and bureaucracy :-)

Sounds like you were experiencing typical culture shock and were just overwhelmed.

I agree that India and Russia and not at the top of my list and both shit holes but I would trade my life here in the USA with ANY of those other countries you listed and many many others.

Every country is good, every country is bad. Every country has awesome people, and every country has lazy, rude, or shitty people.

You can make a positive and negative list about each and every country on earth, and still not prove anything. All you can do is find the best place for you, based on what you want out of life.

I'm fortunate and happy I was born and raised in the USA. It's an awesome place. But after 30 years of living there, I wanted to live abroad to learn new things and have new experiences. It has helped me grow and learn as a person. But that's just me. It's not for everyone.

I'm honestly not trying to be combative...

It's that very statement that causes my "soul" intense unrest. For me, it's not about the ability to buy useless goods. It's about continual achievement. Always setting my bar higher... and the freedom to do it.

I wasn't born with the financial resources to travel like this .. to build the business I have. I didn't inherit a fortune, I don't have a trust fund.

I simply had the drive to make it and an environment here in the US that fostered achievement.

I hear what you are saying and more power to ya...

I would be devastated if I had to go live in any of the countries I visited.

i agree with MiamiBoyz.. definitely sounds like a culture shock.. odd how fast one adapts to those places/scenarios, but i feel ya

what was your experience with Canada?

"Way Better" in what ways?

All of the countries had:

Great beauty
Great art
Great food ( well mostly )
Great Cities


And so does the USA

The People ... equally shitty as the USA .. some were much worse.

Then you get to the core philosophies of "the country" .. and that's where .. for me... I desperately missed the USA & sincerely hope it doesn't change.

I didn't go to any of the countries to compare .. I went for business and along the way met with local business owners .. many of them.

Had 100+ dinners and lunches ... heard tales and stories going back generations.

Those were fantastic times ... but there was always this thread of "we should all just be average" that I couldn't shake & will never understand.

I guess I'm just a greedy American .. and I'm fine with that. Actually nope .. I'm proud of it.

should all just be average? as in you understood them to be 'ok with their position'?

home is home

Canada has some of the greatest natural beauty I've ever seen. I don't think people who haven't been can appreciate how vast it is or how different the major cities are. I loved the Vancouver area , Quebec and Victoria.

I actually like a lot about Canada ... including the people.

The thing I didn't like .. there is this acceptance of "middle of the road is fine" that's so pervasive that Canadians will actually argue that it doesn't exist lol.

I heard the phrase " Yeah But " 10k times. LOL

And I really don't like the restrictions the gov has on non Canadian content. It makes me feel censored.

As in ...

"No one should have three cars .. one is plenty"

"Starbucks is for snobs... Tim Horton's is good enough"

"I don't understand why you need a 3500sqft home"

"Why would I want to grow my business... I get by just fine"

"I don't want to be global, that's too much work"

" I really don't mind that we are only on season 3 of _______ insert the show"

" I can't believe you are staying at the Bulgari Hotel Milan .. it's so obnoxious"


It's a general acceptance of less than the best.

gaa sorry man.. next time you're here, just go like this:

http://i.imgur.com/TAgMQIj.jpg

and say 'yabut? YABUT?'

and watch the following mental breakdown as they understand what you're doing, and endeavor not to use 'Yabut' again.. it's the prior generations version of 'like'.. sure it was annoying, now it's sport.

i have heard the middle of the road thing before.. surprisingly from an area of the world that still produces textiles for the rest of europe.. think it's perception.

some would ask 'why are you staying there'.. others would state 'oh, there? i have seen better'.. depends on the crowd.

Thanks for expanding on that and I get what you're referring to and can relate. When you're a high achiever many of the Mediterranean countries, the locals' mindset, priorities and work ethics can be frustrating, but the more time you spend with them the more you start to understand them. It's partially due to the vast cultural differences and a question of "What's really important?" and "How much is enough to enjoy life?"

Heinrich Böll's The story of the Mexican fisherman comes to mind. If you're not familiar with it, give it a read.

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:thumbsup

So, italy is bad because people are'nt greedy and don't desire things they don't need?

Sounds like you're right and are better off in americanland.

I can sort of see where you're coming from having experienced similar attitudes in other countries myself...

I don't think you can generalize ambitious people by nationality though. I have seen just as many of the attitudes you describe here in the USA, and just as many hard working amibitious people in the foreign countries you listed.

People either suck or don't suck wherever they're from.

You know I have been to most corners of the world over the last 20 years, and the more people I meet, the more I like my dog.

Well said. Also circumstances in one and the same country can change from one day to the next. Nomads are the best citizens :-)

Hmmm, I recommend traveling to the Philippines. You will see poor people not want to do business with an rich American because they are afraid to be ending up on the short end of the deal with you making more money than them.

Different people and cultures generate genuine mentalities. You have to deal with it in a smart way to succeed. And, yes, it is possible to walk away with a splendid deal in Italy and the Philippines. Sometimes you just need to sit down with people for an afternoon and listen to their stories and drink wine. At the end of the day, they will clap on your shoulder and say "Wow, you are still standing. We will be glad to work with you."

I just experienced the exact opposite. I just spent two weeks traveling thru Germany, Austria and Italy and see a distinct possibility in my future to be a U.S. expat.

do you understand the meaning of the word subjective?

it's probably not a coincident that the countries with the warmer climates have a more relaxed work ethic...

I went to London and Budapest last year, and I saw both good and bad.

On one hand London was beautiful, but surely not the "England" I expected - I expected lots of older white people and I quickly discovered that London is much more culturally diverse. (I also noticed the chicks wore skirts.)

Budapest was amazing for me because it was my first real trip into a former Soviet Block country. You can see the old Soviet housing, but you cannot deny that Budapest was beautiful with the large old buildings. My hotel - which must have been built in the 1800s - was old school yet still very beautiful.

All countries have good and bad. You can say America is beautiful, but then you can ride through the South and you can see people living out of small shacks.

All countries have good and bad.

Indeed. However not sure if you can be subjective THAT much, that Canada is "wow, what an issues" and US is "very great".

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This. But I will never go back to the US unless it is in chains.

Have you travelled much before?
It sounds like it was your first time spending a lot of time outside the USA.

Sure but you're talking about attitutes and as the other guy said you cannot generalize. USA has some serious problems, is not as free as it used to be and is the largest debtor nation in the history of the world. But Americans are some of the most ambitious and entrepreneurial people on the face of the earth.

Its a culture there so if you compare like that with just average people attitudes, you maybe get that result. Also when you're just visiting, you wont necessarily mix with the business people and the high classes etc.

When I first went to India the only things I liked were the beautiful fabrics and the wonderful fruit.... Mangos, Papaya and Kurbuza Melons etc (these fruits are amazing). Everything else was a pile of crap until I actually travelled and explored the country and tried to "see" objectively and learned about the culture, the history and tried to see it through their eyes. Then tie it back to all the history/economics - that's how it becomes enriching for me.

When I first went to China, I went totally expecting communism to be in my face. The revelation I was faced with was not how different China is to what I was expecting. The people's attitudes, being chased by people like im a exotic bird, the food they eat, how friendly the people are and how different it was to how it has been presented in the Media and the list goes on.

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Vacation is always nice cause you're not working. As long as you're not working doesn't take much to say "Fuck this is great" Could be staring at a mud puddle with a beer in your hand and it's awesome. If ya actually moved there though you would rarely do the shit ya think is great. Tourists all over Chicago and I can't remember the last time I went to anything they give a shit about. Had a friend move to Florida and he raved about the beaches before moving there, now that he lives there says he hasn't gone to one in years.

This was my first lengthy ( 8 weeks ) business trip to Europe / Asia. I do however have a home outside the USA & have travelled extensively in Central & South America.

I understand what you are trying to say about "Also when you're just visiting" .... this was a business trip however :)

Anyhow ... The overall summary wasn't that everyone else sucks ...

As I said in an earlier post

All of the countries had:

Great beauty
Great art
Great food ( well mostly )
Great Cities

And so does the USA

But it is fair to "generalize" things from time to time....

For example the term "Ugly Americans", a term used to describe "our" attitudes when traveling is a fair generalization.

Is every American rude & arrogant when traveling? No. But there is a pervasive "attitude" that can rightfully be applied to us as a group of people. We generally expect people to speak our language, we are generally demanding with hospitality workers etc etc...

Again .. is this true of every American .. no... but you see it often enough that it can rightfully be considered a generalization.


And I found certain personality traits & political issues to be pervasive enough that I thought wow .. I really do love the USA.

I was honestly expecting the opposite and believed I was more "European" in my world view .. I'm not.

Sadly we are headed to the same thing in the US. That minimum wage the the world is saying we should pay will put us on the same boat.

lol now that's just obvious.