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"That's How They Getcha!" Cams/Dating TOS fails
A decade ago, when I was making good money selling monthly porn subscriptions on a revshare basis, I utterly swore off promoting cams and dating. In some cases this was because I didn't like the ROI on the traffic I was sending, and in other cases I found too many shady terms in the relevant terms and conditions. Ultimately I concluded (again, this was ten years ago) that I was wasting my traffic sending it to those industries.
Well, times change, and we all know that monthly porn subscriptions aren't what they used to be. But cams and dating continue to thrive. So I've begun a sort of systematic exploration of the offerings, to see if I can find a place why my small volumes of high-quality traffic can make me some money. So far, my impressions aren't good. This thread will document my research process, or at least the parts of it that lead to dead ends. Given the fact that I will be sending small test volumes of traffic, I'm looking for a program that will pay out in reasonable minimum amounts ($100 is fine, $50 is better) using convenient and non-shady payment methods (PayPal is awesome, a check on a US bank is fine, bank transfers are dubious because of cost) with no penalty for low-volume affiliates. Given my revshare roots and philosophy, I'm always looking for some way to share in recurring business, and thus I despise any sort of takeback provisions that steal my revshare on past business for any reason. Eating my revshares from historic traffic because I'm not currently sending traffic or generating new sales is NOT acceptable. For you youngsters, my thread title "That's how they getcha!" is a tagline from an old show called Dr. Katz, Professional Therapist. Here's the relevant bit on YouTube. Please note: This is a business thread, not a "spam me with your refcode" thread. I will be criticizing and making fun of the cams and dating sites I discuss here. If you rep a program, feel free to contact me about it elsewhere. But you would be ill-advised to mention or promote it here unless you are 100% certain your terms meet my weary, jaded, and cynical high standards. (Hint: They probably don't.) |
Let's meet the first contestant, shall we?
PlayWithMe, from Medly. (Cams offering) Medly and I go way back ... all the way back to 2001. From the very beginning they got marked as "shady" in my book because they advertised a variety of pay-per-click and pay-per-signup programs with a "retroactive convert to revshare" policy that they applied very swiftly to anybody whose pay-per-click or free/cheap signups weren't making them more money than revshare would. That didn't bother me in the specifics -- I was always a revshare guy -- but they were very deceptive about it in the early days. And my thinking about non-revshare programs is that by offering to pay for traffic before the monetization is complete, the program is making a confident wager about its long term ability to monetize your traffic. "Your traffic is going to make us so much money, we'll bribe you now with up-front money so that you'll sell us your rights to the revenue stream for less than those rights are worth." Thus, in my mind, it's cheating to make that bet, try and fail to monetize the traffic, and then come back and retroactively switch the affiliate to revshare, which is what these guys used to do. GFY used to be filled with complaints from dismayed new affiliates who wracked up hundreds of dollars in PPS revenue, only to log into their affiliate stats and see it all gone because their free signups didn't immediately convert to paid ones. So that's how they got on my shady list in the early days of the 21st century. How about today? You have to click through three succeeding pages to find out that the "up to 35% on sales forever" that they advertise prominently actually translates to 20% unless you send more than five sales a day. Not awesome, but an industry-standard way to present the affiliate offer. However, it's when you get to that third page that things start falling short of my admittedly high standards. First, I noticed that the incorporated-by-reference main Medly TOS has a clawback for retaining funds from low-activity accounts. The amounts and timelines seem reasonable, though: Quote:
No disclosure is offered to affiliates as to what other levels of membership may be offered to PlayWithMe traffic, or what "products and services" may be offered to that traffic other than gold or silver memberships. 20 percent of all sales would be a reasonable offer on small traffic. 20 percent of a fraction of all sales, with no limits on uncompensated cross sales or upsales? No. That's not a commercially-reasonable offer. That's a pay-per-sale sort of provision, and this is not a pay-per-sale program. That's how they getcha. Next! |
your time would be better spent building traffic them niggling over a few percentage points here and there. just my opinion.
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Next I looked at the dating offers in the currently-pinned thread from Together Networks. I haven't given them the full fine-toothed-comb suspicious read yet, because of the glaring inconsistency I found between the FAQ on their front page and their TOS. Compare these quotes:
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That's how they getcha. Next! |
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That's all for today. I'll be updating this thread in the next weeks as my research continues.
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because there is like 10 cam sites to promote and the same with dating. it's not like back in the paysite days where you had hundreds of worthy ones to choose from. test them all and go with the ones that make the most money and actually pay. i know people that stay away from programs because of some purported board "scandal" or some weird tos thing but those are one of the few programs left that actually convert and pay every time. then again, you are free to spend your time as you wish.
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Either you have traffic and you matter... or you don't and you don't. End of story. Payouts and terms can always be negotiated if you have quality traffic and aren't just another clown talking out his ass - like 99% of people here.
Only a broke and deranged lunatic would spend time focused on picking apart a programs TOS and searching for grammatical inconsistencies or contradictions rather than being productive and making sure he's earning the very highest earnings per unique visitor. |
In my experience if their TOS tells you up front that they're not going to pay you, they are definitely not going to pay you. That's not a "weird TOS thing", it's a warning.
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Forkbeard, those TOS details are more or less usual with all programs, so get used to them, just wait how shady some practices appear in the long run when you send them consistent traffic on monthly basis, don't bang your head over TOS, stick with the programs which make you monies and ditch the ones which don't.
Also you have to be aware that you're re-selling their product for a commission in the first place, it's all targeted how you will make more money for them, not the other way around. |
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End of story. Use them. Why invest time in thoroughly unproductive behavior. At the end of the day, this is not about any TOS. This is about immature, paranoid and distrustful or mentally ill people wasting their time fretting over stupid shit rather than making money. You will NEVER see a person with real traffic or volume spending time on dumb shit like this or even giving it a second thought. |
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I know that most of the cams and dating programs are shady and have shady TOS. The purpose of this survey (after years spent ignoring them all) is to see if there are exceptions. This thread is me looking at them one by one and going "nope, this one is no exception." And sharing that analysis here. If you're telling me there's no good program with fair TOS out there, I'm inclined to believe you. But I'm still gonna look. |
Despite his efforts to be as offensive as possible in his criticism of my little research project, TheSquealer does make one good point. TOS really don't matter with good programs. By definition, a good program is going to pay you honestly and they aren't going to pick nits (or even enforce their own terms) against a webmaster that's sending them lots of sales. I have programs that have been paying me reliably for a decade, and I couldn't give a shit less what their TOS says, because they're going to keep paying me.
What TheSquealer clearly doesn't understand is that in cams and dating I've got no way to know which programs are like that, if any. And in my experience in other parts of the adult industry, examining the TOS really is a useful way of weeding out the programs that aren't going to pay reliably. Most people who are going to screw you actually say so in the fine print, which they rely on you not reading. And if there's a company out there that really does make it a priority to pay affiliates every dime that the affiliates have coming, they usually make it a point to say so in their affiliate materials. It might be a lie, but at least it's a place to start. |
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Most webmasters that complain about not getting paid are sending bad traffic or have a fraudulent way of doing business.. |
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I don't have a problem with a clearly-disclosed 100 minimum, though it's maybe a little steep. And it's significant to me that Christiana Scolaro gave you advice on how to get your money, rather than just doing what you asked and silently eating the money. Going the extra mile to pay out a sub-minimum account on closure would be the zealous commitment to paying affiliates every dime they earn that I'm really looking for, but that kind of fiduciary zeal is rare in this fallen world. Trying to get you paid within the rules is sufficient, and respectable. |
I run paysites and offer cams and dating inside my 84 Members Areas. So the traffic is relatively small but also 'targeted' (to some extent). Here's MY problem with cams and dating as a business model for the affiliate vs. paysites for the affiliate:
With cams/dating the affiliate really has ZERO idea how much the Customer actually spends. That's why we get paid on intial signups (and all the fun little tricks that go along with them, like trials and upgrading and converting blah blah). Once a cam or dating Customer is inside the cam or dating site they basically POOF disappear in terms of how much they spend and you, the affiliate, knowing about it. With paysites when someone joins you get the sale (and rebill), end of story. Sure, there may be Upsells in the MA that you, the affiliate, do not get a piece of but this is, at best, ancillary income (not the main moneymaker). So there's my problem with cams and dating Programs. How the fuck do I know how much a Customer actually spends? You say he spent $x but maybe he really spent $xxx. Again, how would I know? Trust, in this business and with that business model, is not something I trust. LOL |
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Except that yes, an upsell is not main income for porn sponsor, but it is income... I am sure the same goes with the cam/dating sponsors as well. What I mean is that affiliates really never know how much their customer spent while clicking your ads either... One thing I do know... the affiliate doesn't know for fact he's not getting a cut of his customers upsells with cams/dating... but they do know for fact (mostly cause you just stated so, but also because while some sponsors may pass the buck on upsells, many do not) they will not be getting cut of (most) sponsors (or MA) up/cross sells. |
There are good revshare sponsors out there who do in fact track and reimburse affiliates for their share of every dime the referred surfer spends.
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Let's put it this way: I send Memberships, as an affiliate, to about 15 Sponsers and I never, ever, ever see any more revenue than the 1 or 2 random sales I send. Shrug. |
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This is one of the best explanations of the plusses of revshare :thumbsup |
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It takes a lot less time to do due diligence on the front end than chase your money later. |
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I've been burned too many times by assuming that some program with a good bro-rep would have reasonable terms. Over time I've learned that the single most important criterion from an affiliate perspective is "Does this program have a bone-deep commitment to paying its affiliates? Or is it always on the lookout for excuses not to pay?" The programs that are eager for ways to pocket your money will virtually always telegraph this in their TOS. |
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Best mobile traffic network for adult dating
Hi all. I'm fairly new to this Affiliate game. I'm looking for trusted mobile traffic networks to run a few CPA adult dating offers. Can anyone put me on the right track.:2 cents:
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Thanks for this thread Forkbeard.
I appreciate you sharing your findings and analysis with us. It's great to have a genuine business thread here again. |
There is always some slippage with customers making new accounts and the customer rather than the referral's customer "member name (join name, nickname)" being the apportioning criterion.
If that worries you that much: Using your own domain with a white label makes sense as all sales from your domain, and for that matter, currently, from any website domain or white label domain in the entire xlovecam/xlovecash network made by your customers are credited to your account. As far as affiliate contract (or agreement) they are contracts of adhesion. They are either fair or riddled with loopholes so I can understand your apprehension. xlovecash The cam business is no more shady than any other -- if you were an investor with Lehman Brothers or a stockholder in GM or Chrysler you would get my meaning. |
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Here's a Pro tip when it comes to cams: to keep ANY cam company "honest" (regardless of their TOS) you MUST rotate your ads/cam Programs. Why? Because the moment you start sending consistent traffic the Program will....well, we know what they will do. So swap 'em out every 3-4 months. THEN when a Rep contacts YOU and goes "WTF man, you were sending sales...." you can negotiate better terms to put BACK their links. Otherwise? You will see initial sales then consistent dwindling over time til you reach whatever level the cam companies feel you will put up with without complaining. :) Good luck Forkbeard!! (And thanks for this thread!) |
The Porn Nerd, the only way in any sort of business, paysite, cams or dating, you will truly know what the customer spends is if you process on your own merchant and use your merchant for the upsell. Otherwise you simply have to have trust.
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Same with affiliate programs. A program's TOS is ALWAYS heavily weighted toward them. That's not new. It's not a new discovery. As always in life, the only predictor of future behavior is past behavior. TOS is not a predictor of anything other than a webmasters naïveté and immaturity. No serious webmaster or business person would place any trust in a program that has not demonstrated they can be trusted through past behavior or where trust was not earned. |
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No, I was saying I'm not making AS MUCH MONEY as I probably should be making with cams BUT, as an affiliate (not the owner of the program), how would I ever know? I just accept whatever the company's stats tell me is true. And we all know stats can never, ever be manipulated. :D |
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Just kidding. Sponsors always steal. |
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In other words, tho I've been promoting cams for years inside my Mem Areas (my ever-growing Mem Areas, I add) I always, always, always make around the same amount, month after month. You would THINK, just from the sheer odds of it, that one guy might spend a little more on a cam show, no? I read about 'whales' spending 10K+ over several months on a girl. How come I never get a windfall like that? I am being VERY general here. I am sure there are respectable cam companies. But it stands to reason that if cams and dating are the last remaining mega-profitable areas in Adult as everyone says then that's where the fiscal shenanigans are going to take place. So like the OP scrutinizing the TOS you gotta keep an eye out, that's all. :) |
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Why would you assume that someone promising to mistreat all affiliates is going to be different with you because you are special? |
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They are generally to hedge against cheaters and fraud and worded accordingly and always have been and should not be a measuring stick to determine how they treat legit webmasters with legit traffic, doing legit business. For example, i highly doubt you'll ever have a dispute with any program that has been around unless they simply can't pay because they are going out of business. The vast majority of programs will fail. That is a fact. Who cares how awesome their TOS is if you can't rely on them to be around and pay you what they owe you because they have a short history? About cams and dating, my personal view is that there is always a big misunderstanding. Cams and dating are not more successful today than they were in 1998. I mean, people get hardons for big spenders in cams and think that means something but when it comes to earnings per unique visitor, it still doesn't pan out. Cams are generally very very hard to convert for most people so when it comes to earnings per click, people aren't usually better off playing with cams unless they are specializing. Depending on how you are doing things from your members area, i could guess you aren't seeing better than 1:300-500 uniques to paid sale and members area traffic is literally the best traffic there is for targeting users who are qualified and will pay. Find the right SOI dating offers, filter by goe's to the right offers etc and you can generally get much much much higher EPCs. I've owned very large cam studios and cam sites and I don't promote cams really at all except white labels that get search traffic. I buy a lot of traffic from tube sites and it all goes to dating. Dating has always been a top converter for any type of traffic since AFF was launched and warez sites were big and had a lot of hard to convert traffic. Penis pills, dating, pickup artist stuff do better than porn overall in terms of EPC's because of the user's motivation... which to me, looks something like this: 1) Meet real girl today and have actual sex today. 2) Make penis larger, meet more real girls and have tons of actual sex daily. 3) Learn to meet girls and meet girls everyday and have actual sex daily. 4) Interact with real girls and get them to do anything I want them to do right now. 5) Browse and watch random medium to poor quality videos on a tube site 6) Join a site and be stuck with over-marketed, over-hyped content, a disappointing members area and then risk getting my card banged until i cancel it. |
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This is why I never specifically call out any program because I have learned that what works for me (and doesn't work for me) is not the same for anyone else. Everyone does things their own way. It's interesting about what you say and the return. To hear people talk you would think cams are the Golden Land. LOL I also like your take on dating. While I'm sure there are surfers visiting tubes who just want a quick wank plenty of others are visiting "in-between" girlfriends and want real live sex. I need to get out more I think. Been listening to 'Queen II' all day while editing anal videos so I'm sure none of this is healthy. :) |
Interestingly, my cam numbers today track perfectly with my numbers from 2000 (value per user, time to reach that value etc). It's a tough game though and I agree with you, stick to what you know and do well and don't spend too much time on other stuff.
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I'm sure you are right that some programs do this and have never even read their own TOS. Maybe some of those will read this thread and realize how that looks to many webmasters. Someone who is mean to the waiter, but nice to you, is not a nice person. A program which rips off someone smaller, but is nice to you, is not to be trusted. |
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