Should soldiers be able to opt out of wars?
 

In the free world, the best armies are volunteer professional organisations. Currently, you join as a free person but submit to military law. By submitting to military law, you surrender your citizen rights for the order and discipline of the military.

Should you be able to refuse deployment on the grounds that the war is illegal and immoral?

That would defeat the purpose of the military.

The military is in the warfighting business. You can opt out by not joining in the first place.

When you join, you sign a binding contract and there is no opting out at that point.

The first thing you do when you join up is agree to serve the President of the United States. One should give thought to who is currently in office - and also who might be next.

The job of our armed forces is not to wage war, but instead to deter it merely but it's existance. It's a determent - No one country should wish to face off with the United States because of the power of it's military.

There recently was a case where a US Army Captain refuse to go Iraq because he claims the President lied to us. It really doesn't matter who lied to who; He signed up, took the oath, and agreed to serve at the pleasure of the President. There is no "clause" saying "If the President is wrong I don't have to go". That's chicken shit.

I wonder what I would have done if I was faced with such decisions.

what decisions are u refering too?

Millions of us didn't want to serve under Clinton and he was hated by many
military because he was gutting the military like a mad man but we still served because that's what we signed up to do !

Remember the Army guy who refused to wear a blue UN helmet under Clinton ?

He went to jail !

No. If you wanted to opt out then don't join. I'm not a fighter so guess what i didn't join the army. You think the only wars are the ones on the news? Soliders right now are running ops in countries you never heard of. Guarding boards of countries you've forgotten about. Its not part of the job, it is the job.

damn spelling....

If soldiers could do whatever they wanted they wouldn't be soldiers, they'd be hired guns or something

other than the US army, can you name any other armies that are "one of the best" and are volunteer professional organisations?

Sort of defeats the whole purpose IMHO.

2c

I agree! I would never join....but people who do join should definately consider the full implications first!:Oh crap

You join, you serve. You opt out of going to war by not joining.

Anyone who joined in the past 2 years will have a hard time getting a job once he gets out. Employers will look at his join date and wonder about his judgment.

Clinton gutted the military...? Under Bush Sr. the military budget shrank by around 13%. Under Clinton it increased by 5%.

You can't sign away your moral responsibility. No matter who's in office, it's still you pulling the trigger. Bush, Clinton, Hitler, etc, never killed anybody. War is one everyman killing another everyman, ad infinitum. Strip away all the pomposity and paperwork and it's simple, dirty, bloody, murder. So if you're thinking about traveling to some foreign land to murder people, you better have a bulletproof reason, better than "Mr. Leader told me to". Those who would use your life for their own sport would try to convince you, with grand language, legal wordplay, maybe even threats, that that you can sign away your responsibility, become a part of the collective cause, just a tool, a pawn, but in truth they are nothing more than a lone player without your consent. Imagine how much historical suffering could have been avoided if only individuals acted like individuals and society expected each man to follow his own well-reasoned conscience. Sadly that is not our history, but still ...

You are your choices.

Of course not. Military personnel swear an oath and that oath is binding contractually as well as it should be morally.

Read post below.

The sad truth is that 90% of US military is high school dropouts, black kids, or people that got in trouble and had to chose between prison or army.. I say NO.. if you’re in, you’re IN..

You're full of shit !

That is not the case at all. Over 90% are highschool grads, a very high percentage have associate degrees (it is required of Senior NCO's), many have full degrees as well as graduate degrees, all officers have full degrees, many have Masters as well as Doctorates. You cannot enter the military if you have been convicted of a felony, also conviction on certain misdeamenors are not allowed.

of course you should be able to opt out, the same should apply to doctors - they should be able to leave in the middle of an operation if they feel like it leaving you sliced up on the table - after all there're far more pleasent ways to spend your time - like fucking a nurse, watching a soccer match, you name it...

Cops should be allowed to move away form danger zones too - after all why would they want to confront an armed idiot??? Sooner or later the idiot will calm down after killing a bunch of people, burning a few cars, kicking a cat or two.....

Thats an idiotic idea.

Then we'd never know the REAL size of our Military.

They get paid, food, and free housing provided by taxpayers, their college gets paid for, and most get a signup or re-enlistment bonus just for joining.

The cost: Go wherever their commanders tell them to.

Its just how things work.

This is what was cut under Clinton and the fucking idiot Republicans went along with it and were happy to sign off on the cuts !


Cut 709,000 REGULAR (ACTIVE DUTY) PERSONNEL

Cut 293,000 RESERVE TROOPS

Cut EIGHT STANDING ARMY DIVISIONS

Cut 20 AIR FORCE AND NAVY AIR WINGS WITH 2,000 COMBAT AIRCRAFT

Cut 232 STRATEGIC BOMBERS

Cut 19 STRATEGIC BALLISTIC MISSILE SUBMARINES WITH
3,114 NUCLEAR WARHEADS AND 232 MISSILES

Cut 500 ICBMs WITH 1,950 WARHEADS

Cut FOUR AIRCRAFT CARRIERS AND 121 SURFACE COMBAT SHIPS AND SUBMARINES

PLUS ALL THE SUPPORT BASES, SHIPYARDS, AND LOGISTICAL ASSETS NEEDED TO SUSTAIN SUCH A NAVAL FORCE



Add to this the idea Les Aspin (Clinton's first Secretary of Defense) had to shift 50% of the active duty role to the reserves !

Actually the cuts were initiated and set in motion by Congress under President Bush Senior. While it is true that President Clinton could have asked Congress to stop the cuts he opted not to.

BTW at the time I was still in the Military and thought the cuts in active duty personnel were a mistake which has proven to be true.

well, in my opinion this question is kinda odd...

soldiers ARE able to opt out of wars, simply because noone can FORCE a soldier to hold a gun and fight. If a soldier really doesn't want to fight at all cost, he won't.

whoa...
u exceeding the intellectual limit of this thread!

:thumbsup
great post

wasnt there a huge deal two years ago with W. Bush closing military bases?

lmao. And who initiated those cuts you are talking about? That's correct, Bush Sr. Bush Sr cut the US Military by $46.6 BILLION where-as Clinton increased the military budget by $15.1 BILLION. Clinton inherited a weaker military from Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. inherited a stronger military from Clinton. Funny how that works eh? =)

The President does not close military bases...the Congress does.

mr. op, your logic is a bit fuzzy

Ask someone in the military.
 

Should you be able to? Yes.

Can you? Yes.

It is a punishable crime in the US Military for a soldier knowingly follow an illegal order.

Should you be able to no. You swear and oath. Can you...only under certain circumstances...generally speaking you cannot...without paying consequences. You better be 1000% certain that the order is illegal or you will be punished.

Pigshit - How did I guess you'd come crawling back to your favorite fetish topic General. Thought you were so offended by GFY you elected to disappear? :pimp

Nice to see an old troll back :thumbsup At least you have more logic than the current minority of deadbeat trolls - welcome! :winkwink:

I am a real troller. I bought a 60 foot fishing troller and turned it into a party boat. While I am officially the Captain I have an appointed Captain as my disability does not leave me with the desire to go out very often. Now :321GFY

Man you're full of so much shit !

Bush I made an agreement with the USSR (Russia) to limit the combat troops
in europe to 100,000 troops so that was the basis of his cuts and he didn't go beyond these numers.

Les Aspin and Clinton took those cuts and went way beyond the agreement with the USSR.

Where the fuck do you get Bush Jr. inherited a stronger military from Clinton ?

That's just 100% wrong and spewing from your ass !

Provide a link to back up what you said !

Not without facing consequences. If you could refuse to go to war without facing any sort of punishment, then joining the military would not be a big deal. You'd basically be getting paid to attend a gym every day.

Now, if a soldier is morally opposed to the job at hand, then it's up to him to decide what he's going to do about it. Do they have the stones to go to jail for what they believe in?

The cuts were initiated by Congress during President Bush Senior's term and were continued throughout the Clinton Administration and have even continued under the current Preidents term. I am not sure about the budget allowed the Military during President Clinton's years, but the budget has gone way up under the current Presidents term. BTW the budget does not necessarily reflect the end strength of the Military, because more money may or may not go into Military R&D and the purchasing of newer, better weapons.

Sounds like fun General - sorry Captain. I never knew you were in the drug trade giving onboard parties as a front. Do the crew salute then bow down to a higher power when you board the vessel?? *lol* Hope you earn well :thumbsup Now.. :321GFY

Here ya go buddy. Do some research on your own. :thumbsup