FACT: Reliable programmers are a myth!
 

I've tried 4 different programmers already for a project I have going on and all of them keep delaying then disappearing. I've lost over a month waiting over flaky programmers.

and to top it off, I've been going through Rentacoder.com too! These guys don't seem to care if they're rating goes down I guess

Yeah, down with programmers!!

:angrysoap

It's pretty much the same with every outsourced work, it's very hard to find someone who's reliable, and those guys aren't cheap then. :winkwink:

the only way i have found to work with proggers and do it in a deadline is to sit on top of them.

you have to be in the same office as them, and watch dog them for the hours they are getting paid for your project.

im in ohio right now due to just this case

In house

In house

In house

(and hire from outside of the industry)

:)

www.calmdev.com for the win! :thumbsup

This is a myth.

I know of one programmer who I came to depend on. Hard working and knows what he's talking about. Great guy. He's been working at the same place for like forever, and from time to time he still helps me out when I need it.

I would love to work with him again!

Not true, Our programmer is the most reliable person you will ever find, Oh wait I am our programmer :) Sorry I program all our own stuff since I have my degree in Computer Science :)

You get what you pay for.

I was just about to say that.

And indeed hire a programmer who will NOT be telecommuting and preferably somebody from outside the adult industry.

(Although I'm a programmer myself, so I may be biased :-) )

Hard to get decent programmers with social skills.

Usually they have jobs, and you're left to pick from the noise.

Worst thing about programmers however, is that unless you're certain of them, or know some coding yourself, you could be getting OOP wonders or insecure shit.

I always finish my own stuff on time :) Does that make me a reliable programmer? :)

I'm an extremely reliable programmer. I'm also not for hire :)

The chance of finding a single solo "decent" outsourced programmer is pretty slim.

When you break it down there are maybe 3 types of programmers when it comes to outsourcing:

1) The really intelligent guys - they get hired by companies like Microsoft, IBM, Google and etc.
2) The average ones - they get hired by IT firms.
3) The wannabes - the ones that have zero technical intuition, but figure "hey I can make $10 an hour doing this, which is a huge amount in my 3rd world country". so they read a few tutorials oh php/mysql and start taking orders from clients. Eventually, they realize that they're way in over their heads and can't deliver so the just vanish.


Another thing is that you're at a huge disadvantage if you're using PHP/MySQL and not making it evident that you're willing to pay serious cash to have things done right. Take for instance, I get paid anywhere from $125-$200/hour for working with asp.net/c#/c++/.NET, but the market is so overflooded with amateurs/novices that know a little bit of PHP and think they're developers, so the going rate for PHP dev work is much lower. So many of these "good" and "experienced" developers won't even bother at all with php jobs.

So true! A cheap solution often does not come with the best skills and work ethic.

hahaha i love how people group programmers or designers in a bunch.

these people are most likely not pros if you are getting them off of rent a coder, then when you want a professional job and you dont get it you complain.

anyone trying to save a few hundred and gets fucked might just deserve it because you help flood the industry with a bunch of cheap wannabes.

same goes for people using outsourced companies then complain.

as stated before u get what you pay for. and only an idiot groups people like that, these people are not real programmers or on another note designers.

People just need to give honest time frames. Designers and programmers. People need to be a little more conservative.

Well I tried rent-a-coder cause it was recommended to me right here on GFY.

When I placed my order, of course I had some ridiculously low bids, but I ended up picking the guy that asked the most money but that seemed to have the most experience as well.

I used to be a freelancer and I know what its like to take on too many jobs at once or to be in over your head. But it pisses me off to have tried 4 different coders in the long run and to have all of them flake.

I'm not trying to save a bunch of money, I just want the job done well.

so you come on here and bash all programmers?

thumbs up to you!

why dont you go to the pros which charge a dollar amount that they couldnt resfuse?

The only reason .NET tends to have higher rates is due to government contracts. Any company that is a pure PHP shop or .NET shop, will pay equally well for developers. Even the government is starting to use open source (PHP) for certain projects (LOC)... It's only a matter of time for people to realize that what can be done in 8 hours in .NET, can be done in 4 hours in PHP and done better.

Not just governments often prefer .NET. Large non-IT businesses often do as well.

I strongly prefer PHP over .NET, but many businesses seem to believe that anything Microsoft must be reliable (no, I don't get it either), while anything open source must be amateurish.

Nope, not bashing all programmers, saying that I'm getting hosed by flaky programmers. The title is to get people's attention in case you couldn't read into it.


Secondly, its a pet project I want to develop, I'm not a jew, but I don't want to pay 2k$ for something I want to try out for fun.


Basically, in case you don't get it, my beef is this: If you're going to take on work, finish it or tell me you can't do it. Wether I find programmers from the Ukraine or the US doesn't make a lick of difference, if they're goon on their word, then I'm happy.

I'm pissed at the fact that after 4 different programmers I'm still left with nothing, just alot of lost time.


I'm always open to people reffering me to a good programmer, but up to now my experiences have always been very negative

You should take a look at the jobs section on craigslist if you seriously think that government is the only industry adopting and embracing .NET.

The simple fact is that as just a PHP developer you don't bring much to the table for a company. Whereas a .NET developer can build the backend systems, client applications, etc, while a PHP dev is limited to the simple job of frontend web development, which is typically much easier. Ergo, high salaries for people who do more difficult work.

And I'd love for you to give me an example of something that would take 8 hours in .NET but only 4 hours in PHP.

I know a very good programmer; but he won't work adult. He's developed project management software, a shopping cart system, loads of websites, and is very good at Flash, but we live in a po-dunk town and he needs a steady check for the kiddos, so he's making peanuts. :(

Who wants to program anyway? :1orglaugh

Btw, the real reason good developers are hard to find is quite simple: The good ones are taken, and don't need to respond to ads to get work.

Hell, when I was still taking jobs I could easily get work for an entire month on any given day from people I had worked for in the past and people old clients had referred to me. Why take a risk with new clients when old ones get you all the work you need?

You pay low your not going to get quality and part of quality is not being a flake.

I hear you man, this guy im using now is on his third month on a what he said would be a 2 week project.

C'mon. Obviously lots of companies to use .NET, but the government contracts are a major impact.

PHP is for backend systems and client applications, so not sure what you're talking about. PHP is no more for "frontend web development" than .NET is, in fact if you consider .NET's use of controls, then you could argue the opposite. .NET is not more "difficult" by any means... I know .NET (C#/VB) and PHP, but I won't take on .NET jobs because I simply don't enjoy coding using that framework.

Good programmers for part time or project work are hard to come by. If you really want someone good you need to lock them up in a permenant position. Although I understand that for some webmasters who don't have that much work to be done this wouldn't be feasable, so you're just screwed. They're difficult to find and those who are really good most likely have plenty of work (higher paid work) already.

And I say this being a programmer in a permenant position...

The real programmers do the shit in C++. .NET is for pussies, not for real programmers. I mean when you have to do some real stuff you need to go with the most flexible programming language - and that is C++. Of course if you want to make interfaces with nothing behind them, then .NET is the fastest...

I believe that people prefer .NET over PHP because in theory is harder to steal the code, and the image is of a more professional development environment. This happens of course because of the 100000000000000 PHP wannabees that know shit about computers and read an online help and the next second are PHP experts.

Egomancer

Double post

nope, he flakes too

had me all ready to start a job and then disappeared and wouldn't answer any emails or anything

won't ever use him again

Programmers are as good as you pay them. if you try and save buck you are just left with pennies

I love C++, but what you're saying is absurd.

Real programmers use whatever language is best for the job, and that could be almost anything, depending on the app you're making and the client's existing infrastructure.

Why don't we just write everything in assembly, I mean after all, it's not as if time is of concern, no problem re-creating the wheel with every stroke right?

I'm going to assume you've never used .NET or have even read up on it, because otherwise you would know that .net assemblies are the easiest language to extract source code from since they're converted to IL instead of native machine code, which can be easily translated back to c#/vb.net/etc

No idea what your project is, maybe you really need a programmer with some skills in other languages, no idea..

Most of us think we need programmers but only need a coder/webmaster that can create php/cgi, mild C & js and html/css. It took me 20+ programmers/coders to learn that lesson.

So for me, if the coder isn't willing to learn how to become a webmaster, so they can see things from my point of view, then they are useless. Simple of it, if they aren't willing to learn the basics of photoshop, kick'em out the door.

My coder is not in-house, completes the work, does some photoshop, html/css, from the lowest level to the highest level - which allows him to discuss programs on my terms and not his.

True, i depends on the nature of the project and a lot of other factors, however this was a discussion about PHP programmers that are not reliable and so on and I generalized things. The statement should have been like this: The real programmers do real projects, and the real projects are done in C++ generally.

Egomancer

Masterchief, to get the php code is easier than the .NET, as 95% of the PHP files are not crypted with that zend tool so it is not compiled at all - it is just the code for you to take.

Egomancer

PHP is secure enough, the chances of someone getting your server to steal the code is pretty slim. And anything core related that needs speed should always be done in C.. So encoding most PHP is retarted unless you are giving it out for others to use.

What do you consider a "real" project?

In my opinion, anything that serves a purpose is real. Whether it is the Linux kernel or Wordpress.

That's the real point of it, though - to prevent others from stealing your code.

I can't really understand people using encoded scripts. There is no way to check security, and if the company that made a script you use ever disappears, you are basically fucked.

To me, they are all real projects.. But making something in VB for windows, or coding google maps, the backend of booking systems, bank software, ect.. that's real programming.

PHP is scripting, it's still programming but bullshit aside, a 10 year old can learn PHP.

Thats why we found an Inturn. We make him do all of the work we don't. Now I have more time for impotant things like GFY. :thumbsup !

This is not the point of the thread anyway.

To get to the root of the problem, generally freelancers quit a job when they realize that they have to work more to complete the job than they estimated, which means that they get below their hourly payment limit. Or, they get a better payed job (at least this is what they think) until they realize that they will not be able to solve the new one in the given time frame and move to the next job and so on.

Egomancer

Learning PHP is simple, making working scripts in PHP is simple, making functional, secure scripts in PHP is not quite as simple.

As for 10 year olds... I can still remember being overjoyed with having QBasic on my computer when I was 10 years old :1orglaugh

Check security? If you need me to code you something you don't know how to check security anyway.

I do not encode all of my php scripts, or if I do it's often just the core that works with another block of software, like nats, which is done to protect my secrets. However, I don't encode it because of the fear of them stealing it, I do it to keep them from breaking it.

And my clients have asked to not encode things, so I don't. But they do pay extra and for support if they break it. Otherwise, I don't mind doing the bulk work and passing off the shit work to your coders.

My partner and I are very reliable... I am currently booked for the next month but can schedule time after that (we are open). I am not going to say that I have never taken a job and not finished it but everyone has issues at some point in their career. I have always given a refund for projects I didn't finish.

That said...
There are also 2 jobs I have taken over the last 5 years that haven't turned out right... the first one I quit working on because the agreement we had was that he would pay be regular payments until the project was finished with progress demos from my side. I carried my part of the deal but he decided not to pay... so I didn't finish the job. The second was caused by my wife having a baby and I completed the majority of that job but was unable to finish the last feature (which was something extra I offered to do anyway)

What about programming the heat seeker of a Patriot rocket on a specialized chip?
Pattern recognition of the satellite images?
Weather forecasts?
Financial market (FOREX) forecasts?
Traffic balancing?

and the list goes on. And before you ask, NO, ERPs and CRMs are NOT real projects...

Egomancer