tube sites and why content is now king
 

From my xbiz Fight The Blog post:

There has been much industry debate and upheaval over *tube sites. Most tube sites have stolen videos that have been uploaded under a "user submitted" model where the uploader is supposedly the owner of the content.

From scanning any *tube site, you can clearly tell that this is not always the case.

This blog post is not about the rantings of the various *tube sites and content theft, but more so an observation sparked by a comment made by Paul Markham in a GFY thread over him allowing a *tube site to use his content and promote his paysite.

Paul Markham is a content producter who provides content to a *tube site. The clips are sometimes as long as 20 minutes, rather than the 3-5 min that other webmasters would like to see instead.

He looks to receive traffic from the *tube site to his paysite as the upsell, where the website provides the free content to the surfers.

He commented that if the conversions aren't there, then he can just sell/license the content to the *tube sites since paysites aren't licensing content as much from content producers these days.

What struck me is that as a content producer, whose market has clearly shrunk because of the 'do it yourself' type pornographers, that *tube sites are a welcomed evolution.

If a content producer can't make enough money licensing their content, they could provide it for free to the *tube site, to seed it with good/legal content, and the *tube site makes their money off of the various upsells or banner advertising, that can then pay for the content.

Almost like a rev-share or purchasing on net terms business model, but one that could help "legitimize" tube sites.

There have been TGP sites, one sleazy one in particular, that pays/licenses to have their own content on the site, rather than using images/photos/thumbnails uploaded by submitters.

*tube sites that license content from content producers are following that similar model.

*tube sites are getting an incredible amount of traffic. While traffic can be seen as king, its really now a commodity. Its more important to have the content to give something for the traffic to look at.

*tube sites are proving that content is king.

My slogan with Lee Noga back in the early 2000 period was "Innovate, not renovate". *tube sites are the new innovations and evolutions of content delivery and surfer marketing. They are struggling/juggling to find the business models that will make them legal and profitable, no different than any other adult website.

As far as the copyright / theft issues goes... *tube sites are not excempt nor above the law. Copyright holders are placing their lawsuit crosshair sites on the *tube sites and they have every right to do so.

Fight the boobtube!

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comments from content producers?

Fight the survey says!

sorry you lost me at Paul Markham....

then maybe you should just shut up and not post a comment here . .. :2 cents:

he did make a very good point in the other thread.. as a content producer, he has an outlet for his content to help generate revenue for him.

it was interesting to observe how an affiliate that got more successful with traffic and generating revenue, are then able to take their traffic and point to their own paysite(s).

this notion was somewhat disturbing for paysites, because the affiliates were able to see what content was converting and then start their own.

tube sites allow content producers to bypass paysites to license their content, and can go straight to creating their own paysites (as paul and matrix content have done).

they can allow the *tube site to be their affiliate and get traffic, not needing any affiliates.


Fight the crazy old man on the porch!

fyi, content has always been king. without it there is nothing to send traffic to.

everyone remember that.

I'm dumb, so I'll say *traffic is king. You can have the best looking dirty sock selling site there is, but without traffic, you're fucked. Think about that next time you buy traffic from a broker; "Hummm... I can buy dirty sock target traffic from this guy for cheap, but why isn't he monetizing it himself?" --- think about that shit.

Anyway, my guess is Paul's having issues with getting traffic to programs (his own) and is trying different avenues to generate traffic and sales. Much like many other programs licensing / using content from 1998.
*shrug*

I want to apologize if I sounded like a dick in my last post...
I'll concur "content" is necessary for the long tail (even short tail, though I think that's more of a marketing gimmick to get that). However, there's no tail at all without visitors. -- That's all I was trying to say.

content has always been king and always will be

remove all the content from the web, where do you send your traffic?

they need each other, without traffic content can find it's own revenue.

without content, traffic is worthless in the adult entertainment sense.

sorry, content is king. bottom line.

basically, let me address this from the affiliate side because i am sure thats where the defense is being sourced from.

content without traffic is just fine, content can go and find its own traffic many ways, but take away content from an affiliate with nothing but traffic and not a lick of content on the web to send it to, and you're left holding a bag of worthless clicks. fact.

After I wrote my post I thought about it for a bit, thinking the "chicken / egg" crap. And I'll admit, you are right -- "content", as indescribable as the term could be, is king, yet it still depends on the traffic.

With that and in this thread's question:
1. You have content and are desperate for sales
2. You have a tube site and are desperate for content

What do you do?

Thanks for the heads up and observations FTP. You know better than most my personal feelings about pirates and my suggestions on bringing them down. Sadly my personal feelings and business logic are in conflict.

Tube sites have the traffic, simple as that. Look at their rankings and see them climbing. To maintain those rankings they have to have good content the surfer wants to see and come back to. Yes long clips are better than short clips and at this point we're not giving out long clips, most are 4 minutes long and any longer are very probably illegal. Anyone can inform me of longer clips.

Will the surfer come over to see the site that supplied the clip to get the full length scene and lots more? Yes and they are. Tube site is earning and so are we. I now feel the next step is to match some surfers needs, the surfers who don't need 30 days for $30.

One of the reasons I crossed over and decided to give content to Tube sites was the ineffectiveness of those fighting them. Their reasons never were content theft, it was traffic loss that motivated them.

After how long, 2 or 3 years of most people ranting on boards and a few doing something how far are we in the fight against illegal Tube sites? Some are looking to stopping surfers uploading, many are very compliant to removing anything and lots are looking to form partnerships with content owners. Some are even asking about buying content.

So let's all Fight the Pirate.

After 2 years how many Tube sites have closed, have gone out of business, have less traffic, have less supporters? There are more today than 2 years ago, more surfers and more supporters. Sorry but the fight is over.

To those who will tell me they never sent traffic or bought content and because of our decision they will never send traffic or buy content in the future. Stop and think for 2 minutes. You're not going to change our decisions by not doing what you have never done. If you want us to change then start sending traffic or buying content on the understanding we don't use it to our best interests. Yes it's about the money, the same thing that motivates you.

So to the future.

We are building a library of 3-4 minutes clips for Tube sites or/and Torrent sites. Or anyone else who can send traffic that signs up. Access to the section is limited, the content in that area is also limited. It will be in the section on a rotating basis so no one gets a lot at once.

We have a few provisos though.

!. You display the clip next to a banner of our sites.
2. You try to ensure no surfers upload our content.
3. You send sign ups.

I will say it again, they have huge traffic because its all free. People go there for free things not to spend money. More and more its training people to think its silly to pay for porn. This isn't a hot business model its based on giving shit away that isnt yours.
People are short sighted more and more people will embrace this mode.Then governments will start filtering it out and remember the us is about 60 percent of the porn buying public.

To the traffic v content debate.

The only argument the "Traffic is King" can give us is. "You can have the best content in the world but with no traffic you get no sign ups." Try converting the best traffic in the world with a blank page. Even a text link is content.

Tubes prove content is king. The surfer makes the decision on where to stop, stay and return to. Content is what determines that. Not you click jerking him around to build numbers.

The industry's blinkered view to traffic, traffic and more traffic has led us to a situation where many surfers don't think it's worth signing up. Too much good stuff being given away for free and too many sites simply not meeting their needs. We made the bed, nowwe all have to lay in it.

This business is a 3 way street. Sponsor, affiliate and surfers. The surfer is king and he has made his ruling. Yes the surfer has decided, not the affiliate and not the sponsors. Live with it.

No, tubes only show free is king.

Exactly. It strengthens the average surfers view that purchasing porn is not necessary. This is like the video store giving away free movies in hopes that you buy a pop on the way out the door. There's no guarantee, and while they might send out more movies overall, they're taking a huge loss in hopes of selling more pop... :1orglaugh

So very true.

Tube sites have the traffic. :thumbsup

We educated everyone over the last ten years to the model of free content. :thumbsup

So what's the solution because we all know this and have known it for years. As for the government stepping in. :1orglaugh

Laugh I hope your right and Im wrong.

What does that have to do with your stuff? :1orglaugh

Weren't you always Mr. 2257? You were the guy who was always so proud of following the letter of the law. You were, in fact, a prick about it. Now you are in bed with content thieves. Did you ask to inspect the records for all of those stolen full length movies?

Which is exactly why I made my first post. You don't seem to get how it all works Paul. You think redtube or youporn got as big as they are by offering 3 minute videos? Are you insane? They did so by offering full length videos and loads of content that is nearly entirely unlicensed and stolen from paysites. The very same paysites many webmasters are trying to sell memberships to.

You want to offer your content for use in torrent format Paul heh? Please tell me how a webmaster is going to get credit for that? You know how torrents work Paul? Of course you don't.

Now you want to hold webmasters to ransom? Send traffic or we are uploading our videos to redtube!! Lets all fight the pirate you say. Then you proudly announce you are now doing business with the pirates because of the 'invectiveness' of others to 'shut them down'. You mock the current paysite/affiliate model but yet it is the same model you yourself use. Do you ever stop to think how hypocritical you sound when writing your 400 word essays ?

I must admit I often get a laugh from your posts Paul , have a good night mate. :thumbsup

Another "We know the problem." post. Give us the solution.

The days of playing the game to the affiliates are coming to an end. The surfer is king and if you don't play to his tune you lose.

If 99% of the business drops out that is good for the 1% left. What makes you think the 1% will play it so the 99% will stay in business?

Going to have my breakfast.

Agreed! That's why we're selling text content for 2 cents a word :thumbsup:pimp

if you ask traffic people, then traffic is king. if you ask content people, then content is king.

btw congrats on the new version of t3 report and thanks for sharing your insights as always:thumbsup





those wanting to add the #1 Content of our time to their portfolio click here

Another fight I gave up on. you guys want the right to post content you don't have 2257 documents to?

Welcome to the results.

Ben stop telling me about the problem, we all know the problem. Give us a working solution and I will cross back. This is business and if you don't know the answers you're in trouble.

Got to go to work, bye.

Paul, could you post some traffic screen shots on how you are doing from the Tube sites? Or wish to give up some numbers?

TubeSites are just a mix of video galleries and user submitted material.....WWC clients who license any of our content, still have to abide by our license agreement and can upload as the admin of the tube sites, no more than 20% of the original content as promotional material. Ex : if a scene is 20 minutes long, then max 4 minutes of that scene can be uploaded onto the tube site as free material.....

Are you another one of those who are telling us how to operate. Without offering anything in return? Send me traffic then you get a say in how I run my business, the strength of your "say" is determined by the amount of money you send me. Did you think business was ever done any other way?

To all those who will not support people who support Tube sites.

Leave the board.
GFY have also made a business decision.
By allowing supporters and owners of Tube sites to advertise and post here.
By posting here you haters show they like me made the right one.

WWC good ruling. Unless the buyer pays extra for the content.

i hope you plan to enforce that and the same for the rest of the DVD license providers because I do know people are planning to launch tube sites with full scenes for free from DVD's they've licensed.

very few people who buy licensed content ever read the rules of the agreement.

Revshare from upsells to websites = $847.56 a month
Flat fee from Fling dating = $35,840

All they are doing is try to appease Paul. They really couldn't give a fuck about his 8 hundred bucks... They are paying him the other 8 hundred from the revshare to make a fool of himself sticking up for tube sites here.

Cheapest lobbying they will ever get.

Hey, I hope things are working out for you this way, and I'm sure it is a good way for you as a producer to save some of your income or even increase it. But don't expect to make any new friends in the process. Not that you appear to have many old friends around the forums from what i've seen anywho..

As usual you never actually answer any questions addressed directly to you but respond with some idealized version of your own private reality. Paul you are always keen to disguise your ignorance with delusions of grandeur.

No one in their right mind has a problem with tube sites Paul. The outcry that you see here and on every other adult wm board is aimed at tube sites that have built their traffic by stealing and posting content they do not own.

Incredibly you still haven't worked that out yet.

So very very true. I have recently tried to enforce my license and everyone ripped me a new ass because I did. I enforced it with Medium Pimpin and they banned me. Another of the selective rules people have.

If what V rocks say is true they can buy content without the risks of using illegal content. Which is what I've been saying for years. So guys keep fighting for them to go legit and buy. :winkwink:

Ben would you refuse to do business with anyone who built his company by stealing content? If so you are in deep water, if not just another hypocrite.

it is a yin/yang balance.... you can have small traffic and great content that converts like mad and make money, you can have huge traffic and so-so content that gives enough conversions to make money, or you can have huge traffic and great content and make stupid amounts of money (i refer you to sites like FTVgirls, bangbus, any of the ATKcash sites, etc )

for the most part of the adult industry, it has been about traffic, and traffic being king.

traffic is now a commodity. you can buy it, you can broker it, you can barter it, you can get it for free, etc.

web 2.0 and the user generated stuff is about having content for the site for free.. and it works great for posts and messages and for photos/videos where the uploader is the owner, but alas, the stolen content naturally comes in.

i have been following the *tube sites growth and I see that light for video/dvd companies who have huge libraries for content.

embrace the internet. some are starting to do that, where they are pushing their efforts to create their own paysites. many will see the opportunity to provide content to *tube sites and get traffic.

as Paul had commented, if he isn't getting the traffic, then it does become a problem of the "free content".

as V_Rocks pointed out in an earlier post, *tube sites are making their money from ad buys (ie. like the fling one mentioned), more so than upsells.

and this is really to tony404's point.. that the *tube sites are profiting off of the stolen and legal content.

i think the conclusion to paul's and others content experiement with *tube sites is still up in the air. I am sure he is watching his signup stats to see if *tube sites are getting him the signups or taking away his ability to get signups due to the length, frequency, and amount of free content that they provide.

boneprone has posted in another *tube related site to embrace this new marketing angle. few can do so. affiliates are removed from the equation. paysites can benefit if they have the license to distribute the clips (as raffi from WWC pointed out about their 4 min rule). content producers are the ones that have the greater potential to win and lose.

surfers are obviously enjoying it. read their comments. they are rubbbing one out right there which means they are done, and they turn back into a mainstream surfer and go watch their ebay auctions.

A *tube site that appears to not have commercial content looks like yuvutu.com which seems to be truly amateur content. Its amazing that people record their intimate sessions and post them for the world to see. and given the amount of postings, there are alot of suppliers. Given the view counts, there is definitely a demand.


Fight the egg!

how many paysites bolstered there content in the members area with stuff ripped from usenet in the early days to get them where they are today? LOL


Fight the finger pointing!

Lots and lots and now they are Pimpin bros. They buy them drinks at the shows.

With a friend we released a set of 6 CDs and advertised them on the Usenet. The twist was they were free and all you had to do was pay the post and packing. 200 images for $4.95 per disc cheaper if you bought the 6, I think. Sound crazy now but this was 1995 approx.

We sold 1,000s of them and within weeks they were appearing on paysites all over the Net. Our big mistake was not watermarking the images and opening a paysite. You live and learn. LOL

This was when I joined APIC and the DMCAs flew out. Some landing on the desks of people who everyone is happy to promote today. Back in the old days they used every trick they could to use the images and at most shows someone walks up to me and tells me they started out stealing my images.

These guys were thieves, pirates and stealing content to get rich quick. Sound familiar?

Didn't one of the biggest TGP sites start out stealing content? Name escapes me. :winkwink:

The business has changed. We change with it or lose to those who do. Some are going to have to swallow that bitter pill. Sad but true.

that sounds good, i will put that in our license too

in general i will not license our clips to tube sites directly - who would want to pay for a site that has those clips when they all are available for free?

Lots and lots and now they are Pimpin bros. They buy them drinks at the shows.

With a friend we released a set of 6 CDs and advertised them on the Usenet. The twist was they were free and all you had to do was pay the post and packing. 200 images for $4.95 per disc cheaper if you bought the 6, I think. Sound crazy now but this was 1995 approx.

We sold 1,000s of them and within weeks they were appearing on paysites all over the Net. Our big mistake was not watermarking the images and opening a paysite. You live and learn. LOL

This was when I joined APIC and the DMCAs flew out. Some landing on the desks of people who everyone is happy to promote today. Back in the old days they used every trick they could to use the images and at most shows someone walks up to me and tells me they started out stealing my images.

These guys were thieves, pirates and stealing content to get rich quick. Sound familiar?

Didn't one of the biggest TGP sites start out stealing content? Name escapes me. :winkwink:

The business has changed. We change with it or lose to those who do. Some are going to have to swallow that bitter pill. Sad but true.

It seems to me the main problem with the giving away free content and making money from advertising (similar to broadcast television) is that there is a very limited amount of products or services which are willing to be advertised on adult sites (cams and dating basically). There are just not enough advertisers and products to make that model work. :2 cents:

why wouldn't you do that? if a *tube site or any other paysite or even affiliate site wnated to license content, you would discriminate?

how do you build that into your licensing terms?

a *tube site is really an affiliate webmaster creation. some affiliates license content to put on their site to bring in and back the surfers.


Fight the back of the bus!

true. i think that these kinds of sites might play with mainstream ads. Once the surfer has gotten their fix, i look at it as they return back to their mainstream state.

i poked around on various sites and i see netflix ads running on torrent sites.

Fight the money trail!

i must admit... that after my first trip to redtube i realized i would never pay for porn again in my life...

i would concur... after u got your fill, you move on to do other things.

it will be interesting to see if upselling from these longer than 3-5 min clips actually pays off.

i think its really the sponsored advertising that is the money maker, in addition to running ad network spots that drives the revenue (no different than mainstream sites).

so warez, tube, torrents, etc may do better with non-adult advertising..

it would be also interesting to see a "legit" *tube site working.. meaning all licensed content, giving away 20min clips,etc...and making the advertising business model work for them (it was bound to happen with the evolution of tgp/mgp, etc)

mainstream does these kinds of marketing tactics in providing everything for free in exchange to make money off of advertising.

this is why *tube sites are the real disrupters to the adult industry, not copyright infringement issues that can easily be resolved.


Fight the darwinism!

well, i my current license i have:

i need to word that a little better and only allow the full content, besides what is allowed for promotion or design, behind a closed membership system

We are dealing with a totally different beast here, what is the purpose of viewing porn? to get off, what's left - nothing till you want to get off again.

What is the average length of porn viewing, 10 minutes, 15 minutes?

What mainstream product will fulfill its purpose in 15 minutes, viewed over the web?

what is in mainstream really provided for free? a TV programming with adverts, ok but show me one single porn channel that would have advertisement in it?

Why no porn TV channels have real advertising in it? and if they offer that why the prices are incredibly low?

- stigma, not many advertisers will touch it
- what will be a result of advertisement, who will actually be interested in your advertisement?

a male holding his dick in his hand? do you think he will really enjoy the shapes of the new Silverado if he is disrupted from jacking off?

Porn is video, to tease - and to sell the full product, once the full product will be availble for free there is no porn market anymore, the whole steady demand of those who NEED IT will not be there anymore.

That's a very good point and I know about one concrete example where there is already a site looking for a 1000 4 - 8 min clips a month.. so they are trying to be "legit" but to keep the traffic they stole already, I need to get something done but I will get back to the discussion later.

content is king, traffic is queen. Can I be the elf ?

if a *tube site can't sell advertising then they will die a slow death of bandwidth charges. upsells to sponsor programs may bring in some cash, but its sponsored advertising that most likely pays the bills.

as long as there are ad sponsors, there will be funding for the free content.

the *tube sites don't seem to care about "the industry", they are operating a biz model to make money. if they do license content and give it away for free, in hopes that the eyeballs attract ad sponsors, then that is their angle.

as one poster and even myself commented that after looking at a *tube site, you really have no need to join a porn site.... so yes, *tube sites are bad for the industry as a whole, much like mainstream *tube sites are taking a dent in consumers watching tv/cable.

copyright infringement lawsuits will force the *tube sites to get with a legal model. at that point, they will be serving up legal, licensed content (with 2257 docs) and you will see alot less sales on paysites.

WHen content producers (dvd/video) finally get it and channel their frustrations of the internet side, they'll work with *tube sites to get revenue from content that paysites aren't wanting to buy.

Niche markets will grow strong. content like you see at kink.com will serve a market that wants consistant quality, and will join paysites to get it, rather than the random mix you find on a *tube site.

The future of the industry does look a little dimmer for the generic-load-up-with-content paysites and even more so for affiliates, but there is always opportunities for the next big thing.

look at the web 2.0 space.. friendster used to be top dog, then myspace, then facebook. there will be innovation, just from fewer players.


Fight the puddles of sky!

I wouldn't agree here Paul, you can't give anyone license to give out the product for free and to make a bank on it wher you will probably get a dime or two.

As far as it's a digital thing, then it's really possible, there are no replication costs, there are nearly no distribution costs (apart from bandwith) and you can attract and satisfy thousands of your potential visitors with your product for free.

What I am trying to say is:

- everyone of us has a desire for sex

- sex sells and used to sell even more before it was avaiilable for free (coming from the mouth of someone who offers real sex for free must be sounding a bit ridiculous)

- there will be always demand for this

- there will be always piracy, as in every other business, that costs you a loss profit

- the reason is that someone gets your product and doesn't pay you for it (no matter if they pay to the thief directly or indirectly by paying for something to his advertising partners)

- there is nothing more in porn than a full length video

- the only thing that's more is real sex - but that, again that can't be offered even in our case, if noone would want to pay for the video

- there will aways be more people that don't have sex but who need it - otherwise porn would never have such a vast amount of fans and users

- Legit tube sites can't have full length content on them

- What we speak about, is to ruin the whole principle of the business of selling sex

This is not targeted on you, but my impression is that only people who either cannot make a dime or who already make millions are the ones who don't have to care about this

so how can you stop a *tube site from licensing content and giving full length clips away for free? you can't ban/shun the content producer is who looking to survive and licensing their content.

sites that steal content can be curbed by lawsuits (where applicable).


Fight the porn cops!

Umm... Are you high?

I simply asked you for some statistics. I don't care wtf you do with your content. With all this mouthing off you have been doing you would think a simple request like stats shouldn't be that difficult for you to understand.

I do and don't support Tube sites, and I don't care what anyone does content wise/marketing with them. So since you don't agree with that why don't you leave the board?

You attacked me and I simply asked a question. I would like you to read my most recent article on Tubes, actually my blog has several since I clearly don't support them as you stated.

Maybe Tube Sites Aren’t As Big As You Think

I'm sure you will post some non related statement, but really you are clearly here to spout useless shit to try and cover up the fact that a Tube is a large webmaster for you.... That's just pathetic.