HD Professional Camcroders?
 

I have been considering purchasing one recently, but I am not really sure which model to go with, I am looking to spend $4000 or less. I was thinking about buying the Canon XH A1, Is this my best bet, if not any other suggestions?

HVX 200 I had the Canon XH A1 take my advice! Hit me up on ICQ for samples.

I also use the HVX200 but would suggest you use the A1 as the footage also looks good. I prefer the look of the Panny footage of course and it has better pre amps so if you use a good mic you can actually notice the difference.

But if I was shooting content for several lower end clients I would go with the A1 because it still uses tape and since most porn companies do not hire pro editors you don't want to mess around with DVCPROHD footage which is a professional compression that requires extra software for some editing systems to process.

a $150-$200 plug in for vegas takes care of it... the real issue is the 1 gig per minute files you have to deal with on location :( other than that the camera is awesome for sure.

Wait til the fall the Panny HMC 150 comes out.
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...C150-34499.htm

I was just going to post this. Should be better in low light and much smaller/lighter because no tape drive.

hvx200 is not the best cam

I would suggest a z1u or a z7u over the hvx200 any day of the week...

number of issues with the hxv

granted it's a good cam but there is no tape and in order to record HD on tape with the hvx you will be spending a dollar a min..

now you can record on P2 cards and log and transfer within fcp but the issue you have now is no archive.. if you crash the HD that you move all that content too your fucked...

say for instance you pay girls a grand a scene.. now you got 10 scenes on a hard drive and you happen to crash that hard drive which will happen.. now you lost revenue that you could have had, plus out 10k that you spent on the scenes.. it's not worth it...

HDV is a great format to shoot in unless you got big bucks.. for the most cost effective way to shoot HD HDV is the way to go...

you shoot on to a MINI DV tape in HD... now some will argue saying the HDV codec which is really just mpeg2 is not good cause it's to compressed... well just ask them this.. what codec is a dvd... they will answer mpeg2 and the arguemnt will be over...

granted broadcast companies do not like delivery of HDV so what you do is just convert everything over in your timeline if you have to broadcast (TV shows)

but for internet and DVD even bluray HDV is the best most cost effecient way to shoot... hit me up on ICQ if you want to pick my brain ill help ya out...

as for quality there all night and day from SD but I personally like the z1u over the hvx or the z7u

im not a fan of shooting in progressive... you get cleaner output if you render it progressicve within compressor

yup .. yep .. and uh huh .... what he said .. the Z1U is actually a fucking great camera for the money.. even way over board for internet content .. worst case scenario you are prepared for the next evolution of content delivery via the net .. and you have the reliability and interchangeability of Sony .. all I ever use ..

Actually tape is dying,more and more cameras are coming out with no tape drive and that trend is going to grow. So videographers are going to have to create a new workflow. HDV is becoming an older technology, so do you really want to spend 4 grand on something thats getting long in the tooth?

from anything I read it seems that in order to get a decent SSD or HDD camera you need to get something like red which is way over board for 4k you can't get a red box for 4k LOL

tape is not dying and is still strong as it ever was... yes SSD is coming up but it's still brand new...

how many mainstream movies you think I still shot on film vs HD?

I am willing to bet 98% of all hollywood movies are still shot on film

Letters from iwo Jima used sony z1u (hdv) it looked fantastic on the big screen

I go to all the shows for this new stuff and as much as I like to think tape is dying it's really not it will be around for a long time...

you have to weigh out the pro's and con's of what type of workflow you want to have


a tapeless workflow is not that great we use one and hate it... ive met 3 real editors that liked the tapeless workflow...

for a small internet clip it may be tits.. just transfer it over and your done.. but for shooting anything real like Inde films, Docs, music videos, you need logs and logs of footage... we shot a commercial for the palms here they requested it be shot on the HVX so we did... we had 3 terabytes of storage on a 30 sec commercial

now which porn guy you know has 3tb for HD space?

we have had 2 firestore's fail on us loosing everything that was on it...

in my life while shooting on tape I have personally shot over 5000 hours and dropped frames on 6 of my tapes... it was small... once was in the middle of vows for a wedding... it just scares me to go all HD and hope nothing crashes... with tape and you get a crash you just start over again...

Actually the Sony Ex1 is pretty amazing for 7 grand,its solid state and amazing in low light. I like tape and I agree its easy to archive and failure is very low but it seems its going the way of the floppy disc.

Its still proven to be higher quality than hard drive based video. Besides, Canon wouldn't release 3 new miniDV cams if it were dying anytime soon. Plus, the other issue with hard drive based cams is, what do you do about originals? Sure you can burn them to DVD but it wont be HD, so your HD cam is pretty much worthless without being able to have a solid backup. If they are going to bring out Blu Ray recorders sometime soon, will be different but they just barely put out the players. The recorders are still years off.

we can burn blu ray all day long....



http://www.lacie.com/us/products/product.htm?pid=11054



but I agree tape is still tits for archive...

the ssd recorders are baddass for some things... maybe filming real estate to sell or interior design.. thats stuff that you can film for a client and throw it up no editing what so ever just some in and outs...

but I am so fearfull of loosing paid content... not to think of stuff like children...

example

I had a miniDV tape that I had both my kids birth on.. one from 04 and one from 06 I figure I use the same tape it's easier to keep track of for archive... well long story short I was cleaning out my office one day had my rack of MINIDV tapes out and my son then 2.5 years old snagged that tape and dropped it from the balcony breaking it in half... devistated as I was I found sony's place for all their high end stuff... sent the tape.. for 35 dollars they fixed the tape then copied it on a backup for me sent it back to me.. now I have 2 copies... although it was my mistake for not making a copy of that miniDV right away and putting it in a safe deposit box and I could have paid dearly for my mistake it was fixable.. they have been fixing film for years... cuting splicing you name it....

now lets just say I got that backed up on a dvd.. and it gets cracked somehow in an earthquake.. or somehow there is an electrical spike and it fries the harddrive that it's on... or lets say 5 years from now computers are away from ntsf and fat32 and osxexteded and nothing is able to read it... it just scares me.... it's too new...

on a side note... one of the baddest cameras ive seen was red... but here is my question that I asked everyone at the red booth this year during NAB

"if all TV's can display is 1080 what is the point of shooting in 5k?"

tv's and broadcast are 720,1080 i and P still ... I have not seen a 5k tv fuck even a 2k tv

for anyone not aware of red.. go watch some footage

www.red.com

This cam is amazing but they used a rolling shutter so any flash photos will fuck up the footage. This makes it a $7k paperweight for me because I like to shoot video of girls getting their photos taken.

I didnt know that, makes it useless to us.

The flashes screw up the footage for only a split second and then goes back to normal. But for that split second the picture looks like hell. So for anything amateurish it could be fine, for a shoot that costs your client several grand it is unacceptable IMO.

Im going to replace my dvx100a in the fall. Was thinking about sucking it up and getting the ex1 or going with the HMC150. I figured after the first hmc reviews and sample footage I would make a choice. I also wanted get a camera I could do light mainstream with also.

Premiere CS3 edits it like DV dont get the A1 because you can use the Focus Zoom function while you are shooting. This ends fooling you into believing some stuff is sharp when its out of focus. You cant see this on the LCD and thats what the function is for. I don't know why canon left this out but I sold that camera after 3 months of use and got the HVX. I dont my own editing and if dont mind rendering your footage from the timeline to MPEG II for your clients then get it. Its an extra step but its quicker than capturing from tape.

Another thing about the Panasonic P2 format
 

Keep this in mind....


With the panasonic HVX 200 recording uncompressed output is no trivial task: it requires the ability to capture and record approximately 166 megabytes per second, or about 70x as much data as gets stored on an HDV tape. For the vast majority of users, uncompressed output is likely to be completely irrelevant. For live studio switching it could be quite handy.

HDV is really really compressed and when you render your comperssion over the P2 format you get much more noticable noise or artifact in your final output.


I have never lost a project from P2 cards and I have shot hundreds with my camera I will never use tape again I have lost a tape before they tend to drop out alot as well in important parts. Nothing worse then dropout when you are in a cumshot.

I shoot with HVX 200 and also have a Sony Z1U, whichever my clients prefer. i have one high end client who swears by the HVX and we ship HD's back and forth. I agree the files are huge but the quality is off the hook. For those who want tape back ups I shoot with the z1U, and for the really low end clients who want simple SD 4:3 I shoot with a Panny DVX-100

Just as a note, Panasonic announced the HPX-170 at NAB and it's scheduled for SEPT/OCT release...

The 150 is recording at the same rates as the EX1 (around 35MB/sec)

The 170 is basically the HVX200a without the tape drive... think the HVX200 with better low-light performance, additional abilities, etc.

I am holding out for the 170 I think... sounds like a damn good unit.

nice discussions in here... I love when brains get together and start throwing shit out there pro's and con's always cool to see..

Jay I got a partner that is like you he swears by the hvx I guess im old school... I tell you this.. if I could justify it I would go red in a heartbeat... that fucker is bad to the motherfucking bone.....


keep in mind though for web it's all over kill....

even for most end user dvd's it's overkill...

Red is cool and scarlet looks interesting but I feel you want to sell me a camera, sell me a camera not parts.

I agree however Im looking at getting the Sony XDCAM soon becasue of the 2/3 inch CCDs maybe Ill keep the HVX 200 as well.

2/3 ccd's would be nice...

it's all workflow.. and how you want to get the workflow going.. I know a lot of stuff is going to be shot on all digital no film but then again.. warner bro's can afford to buy back up after back up after back up

something interesting I learned at NAB this year

all the new BMW commercials are being shot on the f23 I think it is from sony..

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-bro.../cat-cinealta/

You should go look on the sony pro site for the pro camera's they run leasing deals time to time that are low low interest.

I am also a fan of mini-Dv or DVCam tape. They makes the best permanent backups. Any footage stored only on hard drive storage takes up way, way too much space for long term archival storage. What are you going to do if you film dozens or hundreds of shoots a year- have a closet or a storage unit stacked floor to ceiling with 1 Tb hard drives to keep all that precious, irreplaceable raw footage? Here is a good example of tape saving the day- I recently re-captured and re-edited some footage I had filmed on mini-DV tapes as far back as the late 1990s and I was able to re-purpose all that footage in pristine format (such as it was) and it it still making me money today.

For these reasons I am leery of electronic storage cameras. HDV still works great for my workflow and if it is well lit, it looks phenomenal. I'm in no rush to upgrade my camera right now. Instead of obsessing on the actual camera itself, I'd rather get the lighting perfect and the best models in the scene with good action all around. :-)

What is the life of tape if stored properly?

I have personally re-captured nine or ten year old tapes, and they were all fine. If you read online, some experts will say tapes will last as little as ten or fifteen years, but if stored properly I bet they will last much longer than that. If you are really concerned one can make a copy of the tapes before they get to old and that still won't take up much space.

I've shot 2 projects with the panny and lost footage on a p2 card crash

You're the second person I heard that from.

yer kidding? they played it off like I'm the only person in the world that has ever happened too. that was my only issues with the hvx 200 or whatever it's called. that and storage of the files. + the p2 cards basically download in real time... just wasn't practical to set up a work flow around it.

we shoot with a couple of sonys now that I'm happy with. screen cap below
-bmb

http://www.wantontalk.com/screencap.jpg

I too have been recapturing all my old DV tapes and I have had problems with tracking and drop outs and other issues from plain old time I have been taking all this footage and burning it do DVD9, so I will never have to capture it again and the videos stays pristine. I can split a 1 hr mini DV and easily put it on 2 DVDs (DVD9)

I do the same with footage from my AVCHD Camera. personally for porn I MUCH prefer the AVCHD to HDV mini/DV

What camera is that capture from it looks so good?

a $1100 consumer HDV cam....

I spent $1800 for the cam, a few cards, a wide lens and a camera bag along with an extra 6 hr battery. I can't possibly imagine you needing anything else for what your shooting to be honest. the fucking camera is about the size of a beer can too :) this is a screen cap shooting 30p

great work flow, dumps right to the laptop off cards, and a 60gig hd I've never even used. with 2 cards I can shoot about 2 hrs. then I have a copy on the cards, a copy on the HD. when I get home I burn dvd's

-bmb

Canon XL H1, shoot 1080, 24fps, linked timecodes on multiple camera shoots and interchangeable lenses.....

yeah I like AVCHD too... any camera I buy I plan on getting rid of in 2 years anyway so it's no big deal. I like to sell them while they still hold value and invest in the newer technology. I have a guy around here that re-furbs my cams every year too. that and the extended warranty will get your price when you upgrade. :)

I think that is the best camera, but not for porn!! I have used it for music videos and shorts it is a top notch camera.

WHY do i think that?? I couldn't imagine throwing around that big ass cinder block around.. And I use top male performers and generally shoot cutless, Changing cards ever 10 minutes would suck ass!!. I also hold POV males perspective from BJ, Missionary and doggy positions. I hit those angles with smooth quick movements. A big camera would fuck my style of shooting up. Holding and moving that thing around would suck ass!! You might as well buy a big ass bata cam. The quality blows away all cameras we are discussing. Why not?? Size Dude!! Too big! So is the Panasonic..lol

I use the canon A1 for HDV and the old school vx2100 for SD..


You cant go wrong with the canon or sony , but if you use the Panasonic you better buy steroids with it..:2 cents:

Im with Jim.. He is a smart guy who I have a lot of respect for. He is a great shooter and really knows his shit!!


He has an educated reason for what he does and how he does it. He doesn't just take peoples words as fact. He goes out and finds the information for himself and then experiments with what he learns to make it fit what he is trying to accomplish..


I like that about jim. Thats how i do things as well.. Read, research, experiment and make your adjustments according to the direction you are looking to go into.. It will make you a better shooter overall..:2 cents:

If your wanting to spend 4k or less you can ignore everything everyone said, as usual, when someone asks a question most of the people responding tend to not read the question and respond to what the poster asked.

For your price range, the XH-A1 is a great camera, I have one, you need to use a lot of light if your wanting to really bring out the colors, but for the price, there is nothing else that compares. You can spend more and get more camera, but you canalways spend more, there is always something that costs more, but in the 4k range, the XHA1 hands down.

I really want to see this thread die, because every time I see camcroders, I cringe, and picture some kind of miner back in colorado territory with just his mule, some opium from the yellow guys, and a pick axe.

He's gonna get gold one way or another.

BE AFRAID OF THE CAMCRODER!

You guys do realize you're just shooting porn right?

And to be honest, I think you all are focusing on the wrong issues. It's not the camera that makes the shot great. It's not the hammer that builds the house... it's the craftsman.

A few years ago when I first started shooting I did not know hardly anyone in adult and had no portfolio. So I went to Vegas for the conventions and stuck a camera in Jenna Jameson's face. She took a liking to me and allowed me to shot tons of documentary Jenna footage on the DVX100. When a certain company saw this footage they kept asking me how I got such a great image quality. I refused to tell them so they just hired me as a shooter. After I shot enough to get a reel together I was given opportunites with most of the biggest companies who exist today. Had I been using the VX2100 (also a great camera for other reasons than just image quality) like everyone else my footage would not have stood out as much and who knows how much that would have changed things for me.

The HVX200 footage does not stand out like the DVX100 stood out so this is why I am not really a fanboy of any specific camera anymore. I think all of the cams mentioned in this thread are ultimately just about as good as the others. I would be a huge fanboy of the Sony EX1 if it were not for that cocksucking rolling shutter.

Please keep topic going and while your at it feel free to talk lenses too and why people should own certain ones or which are must haves.

why is that? a camcorder circa 2008 is better than any pro camera circa 2004.

Yep and the footage could look beautiful and be perfectly exposed but if the sex is as interesting as watching paint dry it doesn't matter.

that's very true also. try out the sony sr11 or sr 12 tony. this is what the screen cap came from.... why spend thousands when you don't have too?

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...52921665291500

You know, I haven't begin to think about which lens to buy, I would love some feedback on that as well. I also want to thank everyone for their input.