It's like Western civilization is not sustainable...
 

I'm not an economist and don't pretend to be one.

I've heard about huge US national debt and now thought about it for a moment.

So with current US national debt as 12 trillion and £796.9 billion of UK national debt (55.5% of GDP) it has a sense to call that 2 major Western society countries are not self-sustainable.

Americans and British consume way more than they produce and can't feed themselves on its own, only by others.

So all that democratic principles on which Western society is built as we know it now is a total bullshit, because it's doomed. And all we live in illusive world on a global scale. If any system declines for a long time in such huge scale, one day it'll fail and crush. What will be instead of it? Fuck, why nobody is thinking about any vital society model, at least there's nothing about it on the news.

and it looks much worse if also count in great inflation of the dollar which has happened over the years

we're all doomed :)

Falling empire.

what's the other word to call it if it continues to live by consuming what others produce
since it produces less than it consumes one day it'll be out of money to pay for goods

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Simple evolution. What doesn't survive, goes the way of the dodo.

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Of course it's not sustainable.

The Western standard of living is based on access to near-limitless cheap labor and cheap resources from the third world, as well as a virtual monopoly on capital and advanced technology, research, science and industry.

Up until now the west has financed the relatively high standard of living of its underachievers with the proceeds of the global advantage it enjoyed due to that monopoly.

But the monopoly is on its way out, and we are now moving towards a global meritocracy. There will be a relatively small well-educated global elite, and a large uneducated global underclass.

Ok thanks, back on topic.

House of cards.

The Romans had their Coliseum to keep the masses happy while their world collapsed. We had Malls filled with goods made in the Third World. The danger is when countries like China realise the debt is not going to be repaid and start asking for recompense.

Balanced free trade is a good plan, unbalanced free trade is what we got.

If you think the US cannot feed itself, you obviously do not pay attention to where the worlds food supply comes from.

it doesn't matter. US have debt of $12 trillion it means that they can't pay for what they consume, so they lend money

in other words they can't feed themselves (though they are still making money from air by having dollar as international currency)

Don´t use these two words as synonym: United State - Western Civilisation.

Many countries, mainly those who don´t have a consuming fetish won´t have any problems to deal with their economy systems, specially those which have a strong presence of the state.

I bet US will find a way to fix all that shit, but in case they don´t get it, many other "western civilisation" will keep working fine, people living lives happy and with no fear of mayor crisis.

There is life beyond US!!

Well........ if you Marxists have your way it will be replaced with the Eastern system of crushing poverty, hopelessness and squalor combined with a heavy dose of state sanctioned violence. I suppose then you will be happy with how egalitarian it all is. :winkwink:

The borrow money, not lend it.

There are lots of things that we can produce and sell but dont.. I had a neighbor a few years go making 22k a year from the government being paid NOT to grow corn, when he could have and then sold to other countries.

Western countries produce plenty of food surplus, but do Americans really believe they feed the whole world? How did that notion come about?

That´s something stupid. US is not even close the biggest exporter of food.

Yeah not at all US buys most of its food from South America and Asian countries

PERFECT analogy! Rome collapsed yet here we are thousands of years later living in the western civilization that started in Rome.

The Chinese are dependent on Western civilizations. A tiny percentage of the Chinese population has managed to crawl it's way into the 21st century. An hour outside of Shanghai the countryside and the way of life is more reminiscent of 1909, than 2009.

The American system cannot collapse, as it is the foundation that holds the whole house of cards up. If America gets into hot water, it just prints more money, and the Chinese have to buy it -- if they do not buy, then the ship they are on sinks (and there are no life boats).

The whole western philosophy of economics and social construct is unsustainable and downright counterproductive towards human development.

6 or 8 thousand years ago, they laid down the law.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=EKq7i1b1ucE

Do you have the slightest clue as to the amount of $ China has in stockpile? If they chose to simply change the currency US wold be in deep. Of course they cannot since the countries are interconnected in the larger scale of things. But China is rising fast: not only do they have better higher education and insanely hard-working people but look around your own place and tell me just how many appliances are made in the US or from US components.

As for the money-print, do you know $ are Lent to US by the National Bank with interest? That means for each dollar US has to pay just enough to accumulate a huge debt...to it's own NB :)

But you're right, it won't fall. At least not as long as the $ has monopoly over worldwide transactions. The dept is also null because of this.

Bring on the death of all western values...

So what would you like it to be replaced with?

we should move to the system which is about delivering human needs based on 'wise' consuming in harmony with nature, focusing on education of social (from 'society') life, medicine, synergetic trade, peaceful science and and space exploring. imo

but we should determine at first how much we can consume nature goods to be ok with it

Compare the money China has in reserve, versus the size and needs of it's population and you will see that there is not enough money in the world to modernize and provide for in excess of 1 billion people. India has the same problem -- rich cities, and a population outside of the cities whose lot in life hasn't improved in the last 200 years.

So who makes the decisions about what is a "wise" level of consumption that is in harmony with nature? Who makes the decisions about how scarce resources are allocated?

I assume their would need to be some Central Committee of central planners churning out 5 year plans.........right?

What do you do with all the reactionaries who cannot get with the green social program and try to stand in the way of progress?

How do we overcome the the resistance that is surely to come from backwards thinking greedy people who do not want to sacrifice their property and economic rights for the greater good?

There has to be some kind of way for the wise central planners to deal with the people who stand in the way of progress........ or I don't think your plan is going to succeed. :winkwink:

Western Civilization works like clock work.

The problem is when you muck it up with half a century of social programs, welfare, and the like. We have trained generation after generation to be unproductive parasites with wide screen TVs and Cadillac Escalades. Our government FORCED banks to make loans to people who could not afford those loans. Despite the fact that the US government stole from and bankrupted just about every major social program ever created, we keep giving them more responsibilities. Despite the fact that the UN botched the Iraq "Food for Oil" program, we now want them to manage a world government.

And, now... it comes as a surprise that we are bankrupt?

Wake the fuck up!

not, though some good sense of sarcasm you got

look. there's two ways. one way is to place security cam on every object and monitor every movement. there other way is to build up such society of good people where there will be no need to track every movement, everything will be just fine

i see you are russian, so check this out
http://kobtv.narod.ru/Petrov-kurs/video/1.html

it's CPS (Conception of Public Security), was created by a group of Soviet scientists, military officers and professors back in late 80s.
that guy brings some really interesting stuff. i agree with like 70% of what he says. that's a great common sense basic in a way to become a real human.

just a few words for english speaking gfyers:
- humans aren't individuals, but a society, where we all deal together to solve common troubles, help each other and be cool :) we, the whole planet, should be one big family of good people.
- the whole everything is united and holistic. everything has a reason and consequence.
- God talks with everyone by language of life circumstances. everything what happens has a reason.

there's much more in that video. it's all about normal relations with each other, strong family relations in generations, real love between a man and a woman, etc

wawawawawawawa hmmmmmm

your argument starts off flawed right there, i won't even get into the *1 big happy family* concept.

I understand that this is your ideal....... but what are you going to do about the bad people like me who don't give a fuck about anyone but ourselves and our own economic interests? How will your ideal society survive with all the bad, backward thinking people running around not contributing to your progressive vision? What will be the enforcement mechanism to keep us in line or the method to get rid of us?

Without getting rid of the bad people (who would essentially be parasites unfairly benefiting off the progressive deeds of the good people)...... you plan cannot succeed. :(

Perhaps the bad people can be reeducated somehow to be productive members of the collective? What about the really intrinsically bad people who cannot be reeducated? :Oh crap

there's no need to get rid of anyone
to be good is easier and it makes you feel much more better than to be bad

it might sound funny, naive and even stupid, and even all of this, but it's in human nature. maybe we will face some huge crisis to get that if we won't do that by our will, so there will be no other option for our population to survive. i bet even gfy got a few people sharing those ideas. so we can start from this to figure out how we are going to get that society

this isn't the first time i heard this

look, you try to be provocative, but that's ok
why most of crimes happen? because people have no money to pay for many things. current state of things made so that even new born child needs money to survive. cub, child mouse or little kitten just need their parents' love are support to become a grown dog, mouse or cat. and people should pay for all the things: child food, clothes, pram, etc. and look, all they become more expensive each year, they contain many chemicals, prams become like a glamour small vehicle, etc. then parents should rent a house, pay utility bills, buy styled clothes (which they can carry only 1 season, because it'll be out of style), etc. did you ever think about it why we are so far from the nature?

my point is that we should create at least as minimum social pressure as possible on each individual. look, at some point free public transport can make more profit for the country than paid one. there's no need to produce tickets, punches, hire controllers. and usually people use transport for a real need to do some important stuff or relax to work better, so in general public wealth is growing

and look at those modern entertainment. all it's about is just buy, buy, buy... damn, when i was a kid in soviet union there was almost nothing (though i was from not poor family in a small town) and we were happy with other children. we did all the stuff ourselves, spent whole days playing outdoors various games most of children don't even know now. and these days the more you buy the more you suppose to be happy. it just doesn't work, many people are sick of it. but there's a huge pressure which makes us spend more and more and more. when a child goes to schools these days parents should buy a bunch of things, more then ever and it's constantly growing. and children don't discuss whose parents did that thing better for them, but what costs more

i don't need to convince you in anything. that's just a style of life i'm going to choose for myself

I've seen first hand the villages around major cities like Manila and Bangkok. China and India have to be worse.

But it's a huge gamble they will continue to take less and less in real terms. The West has to balance the books. Living in perpetual debt is not an option.

btw i'm a big fan of gran torino movie
it's about the same values i'm talking here and which america has lost with this new generation

Maybe its time to get out of adult and get into buying land and farming.
Actual consumer goods that are needed.

yeah, i will be moving into that direction
i guess in a few years

please elaborate on this.

Dirty ho's with afros

watch the movie first )

alright, i'll be leaving right now. see you guys later )
i'm not about communism, socialism or something. i'm just about common sense, peace and friendship all over the world ;)

i watched the film, my g/f has the DVD in fact. so go on........

I could never understand how someone could live in the west and be an advocate for globalization. Where did these people think the wealth was going to come from to empower developing nations?

That is fine by me. Do what you want.... just leave the rest of us out of it. Thanks. :)