CSS: good or bad? I think it's shit

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  • DanielS
    Registered User
    • Apr 2003
    • 569
    #1

    CSS: good or bad? I think it's shit

    Building sites for almost 10 years using editors like dreamweaver, and now I'm editing a site full of <div> tags and it looks like shit when I open it in dreamweaver.

    So, should I use the old loved tables OR what's the best 'What you see is what you get' editor for CSS?

    What's the point of CSS? I find it usefull ONLY for font styles. Nothing else.

    Thanks!
    Tags: None
    • StinkyPink
      It's all goooood.
      • Aug 2009
      • 1591
      #2
      I hate it. I am not that good at editing divs especially putting images where I want them. It makes it hard to edit my script templates etc.

        Comment

        • Ron2k1
          Confirmed User
          • Sep 2001
          • 1573
          #3
          Any serious webdeveloper will use CSS, when used correctly it keeps the HTML code clean and it's much better for search engine positions

            Comment

            • DanielS
              Registered User
              • Apr 2003
              • 569
              #4
              Originally posted by StinkyPink
              I hate it. I am not that good at editing divs especially putting images where I want them. It makes it hard to edit my script templates etc.
              That's why I love tables!

                Comment

                • TeenCat
                  Too lazy to set a koala
                  • Jan 2007
                  • 16131
                  #5
                  old good html and css for styles forever!

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                    • Serge Litehead
                      Confirmed User
                      • Dec 2002
                      • 5190
                      #6
                      yes

                      cleaner and lighter html
                      layout and decorative rules cached in separate file
                      no waiting till tables fully load
                      reusable class rules

                      is da shit!

                        Comment

                        • munki
                          Do Fun Shit.
                          • Dec 2004
                          • 13393
                          #7
                          This thread makes me absolutely shudder... learn your fucking tools.

                          “I have the simplest tastes. I am always satisfied with the best.” -Oscar Wilde

                            Comment

                            • TeenCat
                              Too lazy to set a koala
                              • Jan 2007
                              • 16131
                              #8
                              Originally posted by munki
                              This thread makes me absolutely shudder... learn your fucking tools.
                              learn what? because you learn it at highschool it means it is the best? i think we are here for money, tool

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                                • james_clickmemedia
                                  Confirmed User
                                  • Apr 2003
                                  • 2204
                                  #9
                                  css is great. stick all that code in a seperate file and call it into the main html file. Why repeat the same code on all your html files when you can do it once with css...

                                  XML on the other hand is a big pain in the ass for us.. Smarty templates are way easier....
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                                    • Doug E
                                      Confirmed User
                                      • Sep 2005
                                      • 511
                                      #10
                                      The only flaw css had was IE, you had to use tables as ie7 and lower couldnt handle divs only, among other hacks but only cuz of IE. The standards compliant browsers were no problem. Still, guys using anything under ie8 will have a problem but theyll disappear soon. Ive a few sites that are div only, no tables and theyre a lot easier to work with than tables. table tr td /td /tr /tableall the time gets monotonous. Divs unclutter your pages big time. And thats just what divs can do for you. The full benefits of css are too many to be discussed in one post.

                                        Comment

                                        • MonsterMike
                                          Confirmed User
                                          • Aug 2003
                                          • 379
                                          #11
                                          Its worth taking the time to learn it. I was getting frustrated with positioning using DIVs so I just used CSS for style elements until I got the hang of it.

                                          Now I am starting to make sense of why DIVs are so much better than tables as I get more into CSS for layout.

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                                            • JamesK
                                              hi
                                              • Jun 2002
                                              • 16731
                                              #12
                                              It's awesome once you master it. Like others mentioned, it is easier to manage (even after it's integrated it's fairly easy to make major changes, unlike with tables) and saves a lot of KB's. I was skeptical too once, but now that I know it in and out I can't live without it. I do however think tabular data belongs in tables. Many seem to completely boycott tables just because they heard the term "tableless layouts".

                                              Also, if you're coding in Dreamweaver just hit F12 to preview the code in your default browser. I barely ever use the "design view" anymore as it's pretty much useless.
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                                                • Kiopa_Matt
                                                  Confirmed User
                                                  • Oct 2007
                                                  • 1448
                                                  #13
                                                  I'd suggest you drop Dreamweaver, and learn CSS.

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                                                    • crazytrini85
                                                      Confirmed User
                                                      • Jun 2006
                                                      • 817
                                                      #14
                                                      Do whatever you do best.

                                                      More money was made with sites who used tables, than sites that didn't. Lots of big sites use a mixture of the two I'm seeing.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • closer
                                                          Confirmed User
                                                          • Sep 2005
                                                          • 1707
                                                          #15
                                                          CSS combined with jQuery is just rocking big time

                                                            Comment

                                                            • grumpy
                                                              Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                              • Jan 2002
                                                              • 9870
                                                              #16
                                                              this can only be done by css and will never work with tables
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                                                                • JD
                                                                  Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                  • Sep 2003
                                                                  • 22651
                                                                  #17
                                                                  css > everything

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • Ron Bennett
                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                      • Oct 2003
                                                                      • 1653
                                                                      #18
                                                                      The GFY forum uses tables for layout.

                                                                      Ideally, CSS can be used for both style and layout with many websites having gone completely CSS.

                                                                      However, some sites continue to holdout due to old browsers and various CSS quarks that make some layouts difficult to do in CSS. Three column layouts in CSS is challenging - it can be done, but takes some skill and testing to ensure it stays three columns, while with tables it will stay three columns pretty much no matter what.

                                                                      Some posters above mention putting CSS data in a separate file - yep, that's commonly how it's done, but not always. vBulletin puts the CSS info into every page. And there are some good reasons for doing that ... if the CSS file doesn't load in time and/or the CSS frequently changes, the user will see a very bad looking page, likely displaying everything in bland colors all in one long column.

                                                                      Ron
                                                                      Last edited by Ron Bennett; 08-09-2010, 11:34 AM.
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                                                                        • Jason Voorhees
                                                                          So Fucking Banned
                                                                          • Jul 2010
                                                                          • 843
                                                                          #19
                                                                          Tables are for tabular data. That being said, don't go for how it looks in your editor, but how it looks in your users browser...

                                                                          I use dreamweaver, mostly because I've used it for years, but I also don't really use anything other than code view...

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • BarryP
                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                              • Oct 2002
                                                                              • 145
                                                                              #20
                                                                              In the name of SEO & Usability, use CSS!
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                                                                                • Bird
                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                  • Jan 2005
                                                                                  • 4365
                                                                                  #21
                                                                                  10 years html and you hate CSS, that's just foolish.

                                                                                  Why don't you just use microsoft front page then.
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                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • TeenCat
                                                                                      Too lazy to set a koala
                                                                                      • Jan 2007
                                                                                      • 16131
                                                                                      #22
                                                                                      but here, of course depends on the site. if you have some free page or forum, html is enough, if you have some bigger portal, css and divs of course!

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                                                                                        • DigitalTheory
                                                                                          ^-^
                                                                                          • Jul 2007
                                                                                          • 1055
                                                                                          #23
                                                                                          Originally posted by JD
                                                                                          css > everything

                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                            • Ron Bennett
                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                              • Oct 2003
                                                                                              • 1653
                                                                                              #24
                                                                                              Originally posted by BarryP
                                                                                              In the name of SEO & Usability, use CSS!
                                                                                              GFY uses tables for layout ... so it must be UNusable?

                                                                                              IMHO, just because table layouts are considered passe in the web designer realm, they're still a worthwhile tool nevertheless. Unlike CSS, table layouts can be very simple, and more importantly, tend to display more consistently in most all graphical web browsers regardless of screen resolution.

                                                                                              Ron
                                                                                              Domagon - Website Management and Domain Name Sales

                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                • 2012
                                                                                                  So Fucking What
                                                                                                  • Jul 2006
                                                                                                  • 17189
                                                                                                  #25
                                                                                                  Originally posted by DanielS
                                                                                                  Building sites for almost 10 years using editors like dreamweaver, and now I'm editing a site full of <div> tags and it looks like shit when I open it in dreamweaver.
                                                                                                  dreamweaver

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                                                                                                    • Serge Litehead
                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                      • Dec 2002
                                                                                                      • 5190
                                                                                                      #26
                                                                                                      Originally posted by Ron Bennett
                                                                                                      Ideally, CSS can be used for both style and layout with many websites having gone completely CSS.
                                                                                                      I think this is a common misinterpretation. You can't go completely to CSS as HTML is also required. Tables can utilize CSS just as well as DIVs, there's less flexibility with tables (because of their own nature) but that's not to say Tables and CSS can't and don't work together. CSS is useless without some form of markup language.

                                                                                                      what I'm meaning to say CSS is not vs. TABES; it's TABLEs vs. DIVs and making the right decision which best suits your needs: divs=layout structure & tables=tabular data. styles can be applied in both cases.
                                                                                                      Last edited by Serge Litehead; 08-09-2010, 12:33 PM.

                                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                                        • Mr. Cool Ice
                                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                                          • Aug 2006
                                                                                                          • 1289
                                                                                                          #27
                                                                                                          I use tables in many areas of my sites and dominate the search engines for my terms. I only use CSS for text, backgrounds and colors.
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                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                            • grumpy
                                                                                                              Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                              • Jan 2002
                                                                                                              • 9870
                                                                                                              #28
                                                                                                              Originally posted by holograph
                                                                                                              I think this is a common misinterpretation. You can't go completely to CSS as HTML is also required. Tables can utilize CSS just as well as DIVs, there's less flexibility with tables (because of their own nature) but that's not to say Tables and CSS can't and don't work together. CSS is useless without some form of markup language.

                                                                                                              what I'm meaning to say CSS is not vs. TABES; it's TABLEs vs. DIVs and making the right decision which best suits your needs: divs=layout structure & tables=tabular data. styles can be applied in both cases.

                                                                                                              i second that
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                                                                                                                • Serge Litehead
                                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                                  • Dec 2002
                                                                                                                  • 5190
                                                                                                                  #29
                                                                                                                  Table is a basic 'instrument' for a grid mark-up, if that's all you need from html don't let anyone else tell you otherwise, use what works best for you. Although tables are a bit messy to look at in the source, thats coming from someone who used to love tables in the past. Styles won't hurt though.

                                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                                    • harvey
                                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                                      • Jul 2001
                                                                                                                      • 9266
                                                                                                                      #30
                                                                                                                      Originally posted by Ron Bennett
                                                                                                                      The GFY forum uses tables for layout.

                                                                                                                      Ideally, CSS can be used for both style and layout with many websites having gone completely CSS.

                                                                                                                      However, some sites continue to holdout due to old browsers and various CSS quarks that make some layouts difficult to do in CSS. Three column layouts in CSS is challenging - it can be done, but takes some skill and testing to ensure it stays three columns, while with tables it will stay three columns pretty much no matter what.

                                                                                                                      Some posters above mention putting CSS data in a separate file - yep, that's commonly how it's done, but not always. vBulletin puts the CSS info into every page. And there are some good reasons for doing that ... if the CSS file doesn't load in time and/or the CSS frequently changes, the user will see a very bad looking page, likely displaying everything in bland colors all in one long column.

                                                                                                                      Ron
                                                                                                                      GFY uses a SCRIPT that is good at some things and HORRIBLE at others. Including the visual aspect. The fact that VB guys are ignorant on the subject doesn't mean what they do should be taken as god spell, it only mean they're ignorant
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                                                                                                                        • mafia_man
                                                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                                                          • Jul 2005
                                                                                                                          • 1965
                                                                                                                          #31
                                                                                                                          Originally posted by munki
                                                                                                                          This thread makes me absolutely shudder... learn your fucking tools.
                                                                                                                          Just fucking dinosaurs.

                                                                                                                          I read on Slashdot how porn is 'cutting-edge' and a leading industry that decides format wards. Bullshit, porn had a hand in the VHS/Betamax war and that's it. Porn chose HD-DVD which failed.

                                                                                                                          Fucking guys using tables for layout! Bad for SEO. Bad for maintenance.
                                                                                                                          I'm out.

                                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                                            • munki
                                                                                                                              Do Fun Shit.
                                                                                                                              • Dec 2004
                                                                                                                              • 13393
                                                                                                                              #32
                                                                                                                              Originally posted by mafia_man
                                                                                                                              Just fucking dinosaurs.

                                                                                                                              I read on Slashdot how porn is 'cutting-edge' and a leading industry that decides format wards. Bullshit, porn had a hand in the VHS/Betamax war and that's it. Porn chose HD-DVD which failed.

                                                                                                                              Fucking guys using tables for layout! Bad for SEO. Bad for maintenance.
                                                                                                                              I'm coming from this school of thought. CSS is a tool... one of many that a webmaster/developer should have in his arsenal... I will never get involved in the the tables vs CSS debate... simply because neither side is a well rounded argument. One is not better then the other by the very nature of what they accomplish.

                                                                                                                              They are tools... Learn how to use the right one for the right situation. You don't use a hammer drive in your Phillips head screws do you? At one point people used handsaws, and now people use power saws. You wouldn't try to hand sand something if you had a power sander next to you would you? Learn your tools, and use the correct ones.

                                                                                                                              I've been dealing with CSS layouts for close to 13 years now... before it was a fad. I also still use tables, as well as many aspects of html/php/css/asp that many fail to ever learn properly. Because something is popular vernacular doesn't mean you should hop on the fanboy bandwagon without knowing your tools through and through.
                                                                                                                              Last edited by munki; 08-09-2010, 07:09 PM.

                                                                                                                              “I have the simplest tastes. I am always satisfied with the best.” -Oscar Wilde

                                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                                • Jaeger
                                                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                  • Sep 2003
                                                                                                                                  • 567
                                                                                                                                  #33
                                                                                                                                  i hate it... only the trendy kids use it anyway.. screw them
                                                                                                                                  been in this industry since 2002.. gettin' too old for this shit..

                                                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                                                    • SomeCreep
                                                                                                                                      :glugglug
                                                                                                                                      • Mar 2003
                                                                                                                                      • 26118
                                                                                                                                      #34
                                                                                                                                      CSS is the shizzy my nizzy.

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                                                                                                                                        • Angry Jew Cat - Banned for Life
                                                                                                                                          (felis madjewicus)
                                                                                                                                          • Jul 2006
                                                                                                                                          • 20368
                                                                                                                                          #35
                                                                                                                                          writing css in notepad, is easier than point and click wysiwig builders. seriously....

                                                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                                                            • sortie
                                                                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                              • Mar 2007
                                                                                                                                              • 7771
                                                                                                                                              #36
                                                                                                                                              Originally posted by mafia_man
                                                                                                                                              Fucking guys using tables for layout! Bad for SEO.

                                                                                                                                              Do you have a google link that explains this concept?

                                                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                                                • Young
                                                                                                                                                  Bland for life
                                                                                                                                                  • Nov 2004
                                                                                                                                                  • 10468
                                                                                                                                                  #37
                                                                                                                                                  Tables? lol. Is this 1998? Are you going to fill your tables with animated GIF's?

                                                                                                                                                  Use tables for what they were made for...tabular data.

                                                                                                                                                  And if you're going to call yourself a webmaster...learn how to fucking code for christ's sake. Stop using WYSIWYG editors.

                                                                                                                                                  This thread infuriates me...which means I really need to get a hobby.
                                                                                                                                                  ★★★

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                                                                                                                                                    • Sid70
                                                                                                                                                      Downshifter
                                                                                                                                                      • Dec 2002
                                                                                                                                                      • 16413
                                                                                                                                                      #38
                                                                                                                                                      We just need a good WYSIWYG editor for CSS and especially for WordPress, local wordpress stuff testing without installing the server and such. And this discussion will be over.
                                                                                                                                                      Last edited by Sid70; 08-09-2010, 11:40 PM.
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                                                                                                                                                        • Amputate Your Head
                                                                                                                                                          There can be only one
                                                                                                                                                          • Aug 2001
                                                                                                                                                          • 39075
                                                                                                                                                          #39
                                                                                                                                                          Everything in moderation.
                                                                                                                                                          SIG TOO BIG

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                                                                                                                                                            • munki
                                                                                                                                                              Do Fun Shit.
                                                                                                                                                              • Dec 2004
                                                                                                                                                              • 13393
                                                                                                                                                              #40
                                                                                                                                                              Originally posted by Amputate Your Head
                                                                                                                                                              Everything in moderation.
                                                                                                                                                              especially moderation...

                                                                                                                                                              “I have the simplest tastes. I am always satisfied with the best.” -Oscar Wilde

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                                                                                                                                                                • Zorgman
                                                                                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                  • Aug 2002
                                                                                                                                                                  • 6103
                                                                                                                                                                  #41
                                                                                                                                                                  css has it's place, but so do tables. I use both - not for the same thing.
                                                                                                                                                                  ---

                                                                                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                                                                                    • TeenCat
                                                                                                                                                                      Too lazy to set a koala
                                                                                                                                                                      • Jan 2007
                                                                                                                                                                      • 16131
                                                                                                                                                                      #42
                                                                                                                                                                      tables bad for seo, lol at you experienced pros

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                                                                                                                                                                        • bns666
                                                                                                                                                                          Confirmed Fetishist
                                                                                                                                                                          • Mar 2005
                                                                                                                                                                          • 11549
                                                                                                                                                                          #43
                                                                                                                                                                          css for layouts. tables for tabular data.
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                                                                                                                                                                            • Naechy
                                                                                                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                              • Sep 2007
                                                                                                                                                                              • 6497
                                                                                                                                                                              #44
                                                                                                                                                                              CSS, very good, i will use it forever
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                                                                                                                                                                                • pythonx
                                                                                                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                                  • Aug 2004
                                                                                                                                                                                  • 430
                                                                                                                                                                                  #45
                                                                                                                                                                                  lol, saying "I hate CSS" is pretty much the same as: "I have no fucking clue what I'm doing"

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                                                                                                                                                                                    • grumpy
                                                                                                                                                                                      Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Jan 2002
                                                                                                                                                                                      • 9870
                                                                                                                                                                                      #46
                                                                                                                                                                                      very easy and simpel css editor ( free )
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.softpedia.com/progDownloa...oad-93747.html
                                                                                                                                                                                      Don't let greediness blur your vision | You gotta let some shit slide
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                                                                                                                                                                                        • AlCapone
                                                                                                                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                                          • Sep 2003
                                                                                                                                                                                          • 708
                                                                                                                                                                                          #47
                                                                                                                                                                                          Just because you are too stupid to use CSS effectively and never bothered to keep up with the times does not mean it validates your uneducated opinion, in fact, it validates you as being a short sighted ignorant moron.
                                                                                                                                                                                          "You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone.”

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                                                                                                                                                                                            • AlCapone
                                                                                                                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                                              • Sep 2003
                                                                                                                                                                                              • 708
                                                                                                                                                                                              #48
                                                                                                                                                                                              Originally posted by bns666
                                                                                                                                                                                              css for layouts. tables for tabular data.
                                                                                                                                                                                              You can use CSS for tabular data also.
                                                                                                                                                                                              "You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone.”

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                                                                                                                                                                                                • bns666
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Confirmed Fetishist
                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Mar 2005
                                                                                                                                                                                                  • 11549
                                                                                                                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Originally posted by AlCapone
                                                                                                                                                                                                  You can use CSS for tabular data also.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I know, but just in general way of speaking
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                                                                                                                                                                                                    • mgtarheels
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                                                      • Mar 2010
                                                                                                                                                                                                      • 1317
                                                                                                                                                                                                      #50
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Originally posted by TeenCat
                                                                                                                                                                                                      tables bad for seo, lol at you experienced pros
                                                                                                                                                                                                      You're such a moron.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Comment

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