Tubes stole your lunch? Get in on this new trend to make even more money than before

[$5 submissions]

While there's been a lot of crying (at least publicly to cover private digital landgrabs) about Tubes and how evil they are, people in online publishing might be turning a blind eye to one of the biggest GOLDMINES opening up in this stage of the Internet's evolution--the GAMIFICATION of online media.

Read more about it here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...eth-priebatsch

It's all about keeping the user's attention longer, better, and with higher ROI

Videogame designers, the logic goes, have become the modern world?s leading experts on how to keep users excited, engaged and committed: the success of the games industry proves that, whatever your personal opinion of Grand Theft Auto or World of Warcraft. . . . Three billion person-hours a week are spent gaming. Couldn?t some of that energy be productively harnessed?

[Davy]

I found a website that let's the viewers fuck the girls with fucking machines. That's all I can come up with regarding playing games in porn...

[Paul Markham]

The solution to Tubes is to keep doing what we've been doing for the lat 15 years. Or open a Tube site.

Seriously the gaming industry has innovated to the changing world of the Internet, it's used the benefits of the Internet to make online games more interesting online.

The adult Internet is just another way to deliver the same porn that's been sold for years offline, except a low quality. I've never seen anything online that wasn't done offline. The only difference is online it could be done by Ma & Pa operations. Offline they didn't have much of a chance.

Can someone come up with something that can only be done online and paid for?

And if they do will they be able to afford it, if they can will they and more importantly will it be more profitable than loading a site with cheap content and paying half the money or more out to promote the site?

[DamianJ]

The solution to Tubes is to keep doing what we've been doing for the lat 15 years. Or open a Tube site.

Seriously the gaming industry has innovated to the changing world of the Internet, it's used the benefits of the Internet to make online games more interesting online.

The adult Internet is just another way to deliver the same porn that's been sold for years offline, except a low quality. I've never seen anything online that wasn't done offline. The only difference is online it could be done by Ma & Pa operations. Offline they didn't have much of a chance.

Can someone come up with something that can only be done online and paid for?

And if they do will they be able to afford it, if they can will they and more importantly will it be more profitable than loading a site with cheap content and paying half the money or more out to promote the site?

This is REALLY FUCKING hard to believe, Paul, but you're talking out of your arsehole.

Gamification is actually nothing to do with videogames.

Go read about it, have a think, form an opinion, THEN come and post.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamification

If we did work out clever ways to gamify porn, it would be likely to have a huge impact.

Could have a badge system a la foursquare for example.

What about a LBS system for Porn Valley/LA?

What kind of live play could be had at conferences (both B2B and B2C)?

Great ideas for this sort of thinking are at events like http://www.thisisplayful.com/

All sorts of potential...

[CS-Jay]

Love it! That was a good read, thanks!

[Paul Markham]

This is REALLY FUCKING hard to believe, Paul, but you're talking out of your arsehole.

Gamification is actually nothing to do with videogames.

Go read about it, have a think, form an opinion, THEN come and post.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamification

If we did work out clever ways to gamify porn, it would be likely to have a huge impact.

Could have a badge system a la foursquare for example.

What about a LBS system for Porn Valley/LA?

What kind of live play could be had at conferences (both B2B and B2C)?

Great ideas for this sort of thinking are at events like http://www.thisisplayful.com/

All sorts of potential...

Sadly it's not hard to see my point went right over the top of your head.

My point is.

The Adult Internet is nothing more than a new way to deliver the same porn that's been sold for years offline. Webcam is slightly different in that you can now see the girl you chatted to on a phone 1-1. Dating sites are an online version of the Lonely Hearts Columns in countless mags and papers. Both do a better job than normal online porn because they adapted to online.

Paysites haven't they're just another way to view porn. Except any Ma & Pa operation can get in on the act. Prior to the Internet you would never of made a living in porn, you're not bright enough.

Online porn sites have done nothing new, nothing to really innovate and use the possibilities of the Internet to evolve a really great product. Just thrown out the same stuff that's been happening for years.

Having the ideas is only 1/3 the battle, being able to produce it another 1/3 and afford it another 1/3.

As you say the online porn industry is so rich affording it isn't a problem. So what's stopping us?

Keep trolling that I don't know the difference between videogames and Gamification. Like that gives a fuck in porn.

Marketing men aren't usually as stupid as you. But then real marketing people don't put videos online of them looking like a loser.

[BJ]

Sadly it's not hard to see my point went right over the top of your head.

BAM!

Marketing men aren't usually as stupid as you. But then real marketing people don't put videos online of them looking like a loser.

[DamianJ]

Sadly it's not hard to see my point went right over the top of your head.

Your point was the same as it always fucking is:

You think better content will fix everything and you post about that regardless what the thread is about.

Everyone knows what your point is. Because you only ever make one point.

This is about thinking about gamification.

Why don't you try posting about that. You know, the topic of the thread?

My point is.

The Adult Internet is nothing more than a new way to deliver the same porn that's been sold for years offline.

We all know that. Surely you must have something to add about gamification?

Online porn sites have done nothing new, nothing to really innovate and use the possibilities of the Internet to evolve a really great product. Just thrown out the same stuff that's been happening for years.

Yes. That is why the OP is talking here about gamification. It is about something new. But you don't know what it is, so you just started your usual broken record about content being shit.

As you say the online porn industry is so rich affording it isn't a problem. So what's stopping us?

Fear of change.

How much has your tour altered in the last 3 years?

Why?

Keep trolling that I don't know the difference between videogames and Gamification. Like that gives a fuck in porn.

Well, it is what this thread is about, love. And understanding emerging trends is part of online business nowadays. In your day you just pointed a camera at a girl and made money. Nowadays, people need to come up with new ideas and not be afraid to fail.

"Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better." Beckett.

If you want to start another one about how content is king, do so. However, to start posting on a thread about gamification of porn when you don't understand what the words mean, is a little pointless.

Marketing men aren't usually as stupid as you. But then real marketing people don't put videos online of them looking like a loser.

So, I am stupid because I've heard of gamification? Because I went to a conference about it last year, because I am discussing how it could be applied to porn or because I am pointing out you don't understand it?

You're such fun.

[CaptainHowdy]

[DamianJ]

More gamification ideas.

1) Leaderboard on tubes.

Users that have watched the most
Users that have uploaded the most

Weekly/Monthly badges.

2) Challenges between users

upload most in a day
most variety of niches
most viewed

3) Better use of virtual currency - such as the MFC tokens

Actually buy and sell them for real
Bribery - x points for signing up for newsletter, y points for recommending 5 friends z points for posting on facebook

4) Local gamification at a B2C show

Get the most pictures with the most stars
Upload the most event pictures in a time frame
Upload the first pictures
Upload the most viewed pictures

Who else has ideas?

[vsex]

I found a website that let's the viewers fuck the girls with fucking machines. That's all I can come up with regarding playing games in porn...

That would be us.

We are finishing up our at-home portable machines that the camgirls can purchase for a low price. They should be available by the end of the week. In the coming months we will have so many beautiful models to choose from, our customer base will have a hard time fucking them all!

[candyflip]

Sadly it's not hard to see my point went right over the top of your head.

My point is.

The Adult Internet is nothing more than a new way to deliver the same porn that's been sold for years offline. Webcam is slightly different in that you can now see the girl you chatted to on a phone 1-1. Dating sites are an online version of the Lonely Hearts Columns in countless mags and papers. Both do a better job than normal online porn because they adapted to online.

Paysites haven't they're just another way to view porn. Except any Ma & Pa operation can get in on the act. Prior to the Internet you would never of made a living in porn, you're not bright enough.

Online porn sites have done nothing new, nothing to really innovate and use the possibilities of the Internet to evolve a really great product. Just thrown out the same stuff that's been happening for years.

Having the ideas is only 1/3 the battle, being able to produce it another 1/3 and afford it another 1/3.

As you say the online porn industry is so rich affording it isn't a problem. So what's stopping us?

Keep trolling that I don't know the difference between videogames and Gamification. Like that gives a fuck in porn.

Marketing men aren't usually as stupid as you. But then real marketing people don't put videos online of them looking like a loser.

Keep the shit on topic you broken fucking record.

[Agent 488]

for paul gamification means a new wolf howling at the moon puzzle.

Sadly it's not hard to see my point went right over the top of your head.

My point is.

The Adult Internet is nothing more than a new way to deliver the same porn that's been sold for years offline. Webcam is slightly different in that you can now see the girl you chatted to on a phone 1-1. Dating sites are an online version of the Lonely Hearts Columns in countless mags and papers. Both do a better job than normal online porn because they adapted to online.

Paysites haven't they're just another way to view porn. Except any Ma & Pa operation can get in on the act. Prior to the Internet you would never of made a living in porn, you're not bright enough.

Online porn sites have done nothing new, nothing to really innovate and use the possibilities of the Internet to evolve a really great product. Just thrown out the same stuff that's been happening for years.

Having the ideas is only 1/3 the battle, being able to produce it another 1/3 and afford it another 1/3.

As you say the online porn industry is so rich affording it isn't a problem. So what's stopping us?

Keep trolling that I don't know the difference between videogames and Gamification. Like that gives a fuck in porn.

Marketing men aren't usually as stupid as you. But then real marketing people don't put videos online of them looking like a loser.

[$5 submissions]

It's all about applying innovations in one genre/format to another. Games = the ability to increase content consumption and viralization.

[Jakez]

blah blah I dislike Paul blah blah

Do you stalk this guy all day every day or something? Get off his dick already.

[halfpint]

Online gaming is the way to go. I hold competitons and get the players involved in actually helping to add new items/mods to the game. So in effect they are building the game for me the way they want to play it. I also let them run thier own competions which we announce for them, one of the players has gone as far as running a referal comp to get more players onto the game so they are also generating traffic/ new users and im not paying for it or doing the work.
Some of the players have now started to create thier own forums based around our game for thier own gang members which again is helping me to get backlinks without me doing any work. Some of the players are only 16 years and upwards but they sure know a lot about the online gaming scene and I listen to what they are saying or asking

[harvey]

[Nicky]

Reminds me. I have a gaming investment to do.

[halfpint]

That would be us.

We are finishing up our at-home portable machines that the camgirls can purchase for a low price. They should be available by the end of the week. In the coming months we will have so many beautiful models to choose from, our customer base will have a hard time fucking them all!

Just had a quick look at the site and thats a pretty neat idea

[harvey]

Back to the subject, it's a very interesting debate, although nothing new. I was discussing a "gamification" solution in 2003/2004 that would boost conversions with several people here (and I didn't invent the concept, so it's even older).

Problem is that, unlike any other industry, adult industry is extremely afraid of innovation. While in any market people strives for innovation and be the first to do something, most adult webmasters/companies will run away from it and only copy concepts once someone else does them. It's just what it is.

A good proof is that what I discussed several years ago still wasn't done IN ADULT, and it's nothing out of this world. Some mainstream companies were doing something similar to what I discussed with these companies for the last 3/4 years and, of course, they're making millions. Go figure.

As for the Paul/DamianJ situation: you blokes should get a room. We all know Paul is many years behind when it comes to marketing and business development, but that's not a reason to corrupt every single business discussion with your pointless attacks

[DamianJ]

As for the Paul/DamianJ situation: you blokes should get a room. We all know Paul is many years behind when it comes to marketing and business development, but that's not a reason to corrupt every single business discussion with your pointless attacks

Reread the thread.

See who has actually contributed ideas about the gamification of porn, and see who has said the same shit he says in every thread.

[$5 submissions]

Reminds me. I have a gaming investment to do.

Facebook apps, bro. Facebook apps.

[harvey]

I know, I know, I prefer to read what you say, and then agree or not, but at least I know you'll make me think. I even read your blog from time to time. But you certainly have something against Paul, and to me it sounds like you're bullying the short fat kid, when there's really no need. I mean, did you really needed this?

This is REALLY FUCKING hard to believe, Paul, but you're talking out of your arsehole.

Plus, Paul might ignore everything about marketing and it's kinda funny seeing him trying to pose as a marketing genius (ooooh those "magic links"!). However, when it comes to content, he is a person I respect a lot. I've bought a few thousands in content from him across the years, and I made 20-30 times ROI off that content. He KNEW his stuff, and now his content might look dated (plus no vids, plus a tech gap), but I'm pretty sure he's still able to shoot great teen content. Thus, I understand his perception will always be around content, it's his business, what he loves, and he has lots of experience on it, much more than you and me combined.

Anyway, what I mean is that I don't know if there's some kind of personal history between you both, but it's getting boring. You could have easily said what you said while being informative and avoiding the attacks and name calling. Just my

[rowan]

[harvey]

[SomeCreep]

Sometimes I think I visit GFY just for the wonderful thread pics

[DamianJ]

I know, I know, I prefer to read what you say, and then agree or not, but at least I know you'll make me think. I even read your blog from time to time. But you certainly have something against Paul, and to me it sounds like you're bullying the short fat kid, when there's really no need.

I tire of him coming to every thread and saying it's because content isn't good enough. EVERY fucking thread. Gamification fascinates me and I think it has a REAL good reason to impact porn

I mean, did you really needed this?

Did he really need to post the same old shit about content in a thread that is nothing to do with that?

However, when it comes to content, he is a person I respect a lot.

Awesome. I am pleased for you. Does that mean he should come in every interesting thread and post the same broken record stuff?

I've bought a few thousands in content from him across the years, and I made 20-30 times ROI off that content.

Great! That's super cool. So *that* is why you are condoning letting him run round here trying to make every thread about content?

He KNEW his stuff, and now his content might look dated (plus no vids, plus a tech gap), but I'm pretty sure he's still able to shoot great teen content. Thus, I understand his perception will always be around content, it's his business, what he loves, and he has lots of experience on it, much more than you and me combined.

So *THAT* is what gives him the right to make every thread about content?

Seriously, you've lost me.

Yes, he used to be good. Yes, he has experience. Does that give him some kind of carte blanche to try and ruin every thread with potential by going on and on about content?

You could have easily said what you said while being informative and avoiding the attacks and name calling. Just my

I could have, but I'm bored of him trying to ruin every potentially interesting thread by lowering the conversation back to his stuck record about content.

You seem to think this is great.

I will defend to the death your right to think Paul is awesome in whatever way you see fit. But I shan't defend his constant, boring thread jacking. Especially on something actually interesting like gamification. This could have been a great thread, instead it's been ruined by owls pics that were funny 5 years ago and your annoyance that I had the audacity to point out that Paul has no place in this thread as he has no clue what gamifiation is.

[Paul Markham]

Your point was the same as it always fucking is:

You think better content will fix everything and you post about that regardless what the thread is about.

Everyone knows what your point is. Because you only ever make one point.

No I don't. I think it will improve the business for a few. Obviously you're too stupid to see that.

I also think professional marketing will improve the business. Not broke fools like you, real marketing people.

The real point is coming up with any solution means people changing. AND sadly that's never going to happen. They would rather laugh at any idea idea unless it's an idea of how to "market better". = GIVE AWAY MORE FREE PORN.

I tire of him coming to every thread and saying it's because content isn't good enough. EVERY fucking thread. Gamification fascinates me and I think it has a REAL good reason to impact porn

IT MAY WELL DO WELL, BUT WILL ANYONE DO IT?

Nice to see you've changed your tune. You were posting that one reason signs ups were poor is that sites sucked. You now seem to think changing them isn't worth it.

What will you change your mind about next.

Go make another marketing video in your living room, we need something to laugh at.

[DamianJ]

Paul, what do you think about gamification of porn?

If you want to discuss how shit you think I am at everything, start a thread called I THINK DAMIAN IS SHIT AT EVERYTHING and post there.

[Paul Markham]

Back to the subject, it's a very interesting debate, although nothing new. I was discussing a "gamification" solution in 2003/2004 that would boost conversions with several people here (and I didn't invent the concept, so it's even older).

Problem is that, unlike any other industry, adult industry is extremely afraid of innovation. While in any market people strives for innovation and be the first to do something, most adult webmasters/companies will run away from it and only copy concepts once someone else does them. It's just what it is.

A good proof is that what I discussed several years ago still wasn't done IN ADULT, and it's nothing out of this world. Some mainstream companies were doing something similar to what I discussed with these companies for the last 3/4 years and, of course, they're making millions. Go figure.

As for the Paul/DamianJ situation: you blokes should get a room. We all know Paul is many years behind when it comes to marketing and business development, but that's not a reason to corrupt every single business discussion with your pointless attacks

I agree with you. Damian is a lying fool and probably broke.

My point was that no one changes. That the gaming industry has changed. It used to be games that could only be played by 1 or 2 on a computer. It's now games that can be played by 100 together at the same time online. Or so it seems. Definitely are multiple player games online. The gaming industry adapted to the Internet.

The Adult Internet adapted to the Internet. Prior to the Internet we didn't give away free porn. Now we do is so much volume there's probably more free porn than paid porn. Definitely more people looking at free porn than paying for it.

The reason, I believe, most companies online are afraid of innovation is they can't afford to and don't know how to innovate. Except in giving it away and even then they follow the mainstream.

As for marketing skills. There are 10,000s of "marketing" people in online porn. Sorry I meant people giving away free porn. There are a few 100 who can shoot well enough to sell to the markets I sold to.

Given the 2 skills I'm happy with the one I have. Because porn is a repeat buy product. Be it to the consumer or the publisher. A bad shooter only sells once or only sells cheap. We did neither.

But as a poor marketing man, I seem to have done fairly well. Much better than this marketing guru.

Marketing Genius gets you this.

[Paul Markham]

Plus, Paul might ignore everything about marketing and it's kinda funny seeing him trying to pose as a marketing genius (ooooh those "magic links"!). However, when it comes to content, he is a person I respect a lot. I've bought a few thousands in content from him across the years, and I made 20-30 times ROI off that content. He KNEW his stuff, and now his content might look dated (plus no vids, plus a tech gap), but I'm pretty sure he's still able to shoot great teen content. Thus, I understand his perception will always be around content, it's his business, what he loves, and he has lots of experience on it, much more than you and me combined.

Anyway, what I mean is that I don't know if there's some kind of personal history between you both, but it's getting boring. You could have easily said what you said while being informative and avoiding the attacks and name calling. Just my

Online marketing is ultimately a race to see who can give away the most free content. If that content and tour doesn't hit the viewer with AIDA (Attention, Interest, Desire, Action) it fails. It's not a race to see who can give away the most, it's a race to see who can sell the most. And to do that a gallery, clip or tour rises or falls on the content.

Getting the correct wording, colors, layout, etc. Is the easy part. Getting the content right is very tough. It has to be because so much is the same and poor. No matter how good the marketing is, with a repeat buy product the product is always the best marketing tool ever. Look at products you throw every week into your shopping trolley, are they the ones that you buy every week because a marketing man tells you they're the best. Or the ones you like the best?

You might buy a car, washing machine, house because some good marketing. You don't buy bake beans because of it.

Online porn has escalated marketing and degraded the product. It won't work for a repeat buy product. Even after the guy has signed up, if the sites not good enough he won't stay. He won't come back and he will be harder to sell to next time.

That's the best marketing advice you'll ever get.

As for my content being dated. That content was selling non exclusive for $3,000 a SOLO GIRL SET non exclusive. Not $400 for an exclusive set and video. If a sponsor hed told e to shoot something different and paid the right money, we would of shot what he wanted.

As it was they offered peanuts and I told them no thank you and shot dated content that made the most money for us.

Yes we do have vids, never went HD because it wasn't worth it in our opinion. Vids were a bonus. They only made $400 to to $1,000 per solo video. Didn't see them making more going HD. We do have HD on the stores and they don't make more money. Go figure.

[Paul Markham]

Seriously I've never been able to get what online porn marketing is. Other than loading more and more free content onto the Net, SEO, blogs and getting the words and design right.

There's rarely been anything that has really stood out as real marketing or selling. Also it's obviously not that tough. Because it seems 100,000 have or can do it. Some better than others, but that's like all business.

For me with a repeat buy product it's all about making something really leap off the page that few can copy. If it's just the design of the gallery, site or blog. Then it's very easily duped and that's what's happened. Once one gets a good marketing idea 1,000s follow and the leap forward made by the first becomes the norm.

Creating content that leaps off the page isn't that easy. Few guys can shoot great porn, few girls can do great porn. Marketing that is something few can copy. And it costs money. The shooters who can do it are not working for $500 a solo girl scene or $2,000 a BG scene. Outright sale.

There are far far better paying markets, especially in solo girl. Even today a good shooter is better off doing a couple of weddings at the weekend that shooting porn. Spoke to 2 old times recently. 1 is in book publishing, the other like me retired. He gardens for his hobby, I troll.

If I'm wrong can someone point out exactly where rather than say something useless like "You'll never get it."

What is it that makes online adult marketing so skillful?

[Paul Markham]

Paul, what do you think about gamification of porn?

If you want to discuss how shit you think I am at everything, start a thread called I THINK DAMIAN IS SHIT AT EVERYTHING and post there.

I will right after you do.

As for the gamification of porn I'm honest enough to say I don't know what that means. My first reply was about the multi player games online and how games had adapted and used the elements of the Internet that aren't available offline. They moved with the times, online porn hasn't. Except in giving it away.

Multi user porn scenes are easy to think up and I've already done it. But everyone shot me down without saying why. It does seem from the notices I get on Ynot and Xbiz emails that more and more are going this route.

Your problem and a lot of others is they don't really understand marketing porn. So here it is.

Porn is fundamentally a repeat buy product. Most men are interested in it but few buy. Even the top selling mags would dream about selling a million copies world wide. In America with 100 million males that's 1%. So why did they sell a million, or half or what ever, month after month after month?

It was the same guys buying. Mayfair, Playboy, Barely Legal etc. Sold to the same men month after month after month. Some men floated between mags, one month this the next month another, but they kept buying. The same applied to video. A video distributor would not take a single title from a new producer. He wanted 3-5 titles and to know there would be no problem getting more. The first title was launched with a lot of marketing to the shops, if it sold they bought the next, and so on. Repeat and rinse.

That's why Private, Wicked, Evil Angel and others became great sellers. The consumers knew it was going to be a good product and bought it month after month. Sometime different titles, but usually a month a select few publishers who they trusted.

The whole porn business was built on delivering an acceptable to great product the repeat sold. Because they knew their customer base was small and once disappointed would become wary and move on eventually. To another better brand.

The same applies to all repeat buy products, baked beans, soap, coffee and everything else we buy weekly or monthly.

Online porn thought it could do it differently. And believed delivering a poor product and even a crap product or straight conning the customer was a far better route. So long as they could keep throwing new traffic at it. Which in itself is an admission of failure. If you need new customers to replace old ones, you've failed with the old ones.

For 12-13 years it worked. New customers kept coming online and even if ratios were getting poorer and poorer it didn't matter. New sites were also coming online so customers had more to choose from. And more free content was put up to entice them.

In a post a little while back you pointed to a link that showed online had grown by over 400%. You failed to notice that the core market, the US, had only doubled in 10 years. If you're hoping new customers in Africa, Asia, China will replaced the pissed off customers in the US you're clutching at straws.

Ultimately selling a repeat buy product comes down to one thing. The product. All the marketing in the world isn't going to sell bad product month after month after month.

Now Tubes are the main competitor for traffic sites need to be far better than places to give away the same product that's on every tube site for free, except in a low res. For a very few it can be the product. Most can't afford to change. That for them is a bonus, because if everyone does the same the field becomes level again.

And marketing clearly isn't rocket science as so many seem to be able to do it and make it all a level field again. With a few a little higher than others.

Yes there are some sites with kick ass content and the number of affiliates sending them traffic proves they work. Because they aren't cloned over and over again.

In the long run nothing will save 95% of those in online porn. The 5% won't be making the money the big guys used to make. Hopefully enough to retire like I have. Most will be looking for a new job.

[Paul Markham]

The cost of hosting, BW and speed is killing the online porn business and nothing else.

If the most a site could afford to put out as promotion was something like these.

Paul Markham Teens.





Online porn would be worth billions of dollars, and not 1 or 2, more like $20 billion to $30 billion.

Sadly the cost of giving it away for free has hurt this business. And will continue to hurt this business. Even Manwin will get hurt. Because free is so cheap to give away to 100,000s a sale on anything will pay for it. And that anything won't be a porn paysite. Even micro niches will get hit, someone will start a micro niche tube site, if they haven't done it already.

And all the marketing expertise in the world isn't going to change it.